The Best Way to Learn German & How to Deal With Rude Berliners

[1:22] Yes, that's how you usually greet everyone!
Jae:
[1:27] Yes, I do.

Manuel:
[1:30] So today, we didn't really ask you if you had like a special topic you wanted to talk about.

Cari:
[1:35] No. I was also not prepared for anything. I'm like: It's 10am Monday morning! I just woke up. What's happening?

Manuel:
[1:46] Would you like to take a look at our topic list and pick one? Or do you want to go with the default one that we picked for you?

Cari:
[1:52] Oh yeah? Is there's a chance for another topic? What would it be?

Manuel:
[1:55] Hmm. We don't want to spoil anything, here in public.

Cari:
[1:59] Maybe ... it has to do with Berlin, right?

Manuel:
[2:02] Yes, the whole podcast is about Berlin ...

Cari:
[2:05] Yeah, I heard that.

Manuel:
[2:06] ... and helping people move to Berlin. We have lots of like boring topics still ... Not so many. We could talk about insurance or taxes or ...

Cari:
[2:21] No, that's not fun! That's not the most interesting topic!

Manuel:
[2:24] How about we talk about learning German in Berlin?

Cari:
[2:27] Yeah, okay! But there was one topic that I also find interesting to talk about: Berlin mentality?

The Berlin Mentality

Manuel:
[2:35] Mm, okay. Let's talk about that.

Cari:
[2:36] We just ... last week we just had ... We went out, and there were several people complaining about people being mean. You both were there.

Jae:
[2:48] Oh yes, let's talk about this!

Cari:
[2:53] So now I have this video idea in mind, if people are being mean to you in Germany, and in Berlin in particular.

Jae:

[3:00] Oh I love this topic, yes, let's ...

Manuel:
[3:02] What's the strategy, if people are mean to you in Berlin? And why are they mean to you?

Jae:
[3:06] ... throw coffee in their face!

Cari:
[3:07] That's a good point, I mean there's several reasons why they are being mean, and there are several ways out, I guess. I mean there's not one way, but there are different strategies to cope with it, as I heard. And ...

Manuel:
[3:22] Give us some examples.

Cari:
[3:23] Well, if I can start with an example from my own life, I have ... like first, I mean, there are many small things where you see this in everyday life. You come to a shop and then someone is just being rude. Or like you feel like you're not the customer, you are the intruder. Like you come in and you want something, and people look at you or almost yell at you, for wanting their service. And that's ... I think that's really strange for many people who are new in Berlin, including many Germans, because it's also, it's ... I think it's a mix of German ... I mean there are some aspects that people will find strange here that are maybe all over Germany. Like, for example, people correcting you, people trying to educate you about things you have to do right in public, let's say in traffic, like if you stand at the red light, people will yell at you - I mean if you stand at the green light and you don't go. If you go across the red light, people yell at you. If you ...

Jae:
[4:32] If you walk in the bike lane, people yell at you ...

Cari:
[4:34] Exactly! So that's something for example, that Manuel and I would also do. Like we are the ones, we are also the ...

Jae:

Jae:
[6:08] Now, my question is, how do you go about on both ends of things? But let's go from the, let's say, the tourist or the the new beginner person in Berlin. How do you go about, you know, dealing with people who kind of have that type of mentality towards you? Because there is in some way, or I've witnessed, where like for me, I get where they're coming from, but then also I am at a point now where, just because you have been in your entire life, does not mean you get to treat me any type of way. So it's like, how do you kind of go about, you know, not getting in an argument, but also, you know, being able to stand your ground and say: Look, I made a mistake but you don't have to yell at me for it?

Cari:
[6:53] Yeah, just like that, I guess. Saying like, "Hey, I'm, you know, I'm happy to learn. You are welcome to give me feedback, but please stay friendly." And I think often it helps people being reminded of that. Sometimes it also just helps to cry!

Manuel:
[7:10] So, I want to mention, so this whole thing of Berliners being rude and you being treated rudely has become almost kind of like a meme. Like everybody seems to know about it now, but it really, I think we should stress, it really is true and it really happens. I personally know several people who in their first few weeks or months in the city, cried. And not like people who are usually big criers, just because someone treated them so rough and they ... So it is a thing, and you need to be prepared for it. My strategy is a different one. I don't tell people: Hey, treat me with respect, be nicer. I fight them ... kill them with kindness. And ... but like maybe it's slightly passive-aggressive because I do it in a ridiculous way then, but when someone is like that to me in a shop or anywhere, I just switch to like this hyper-friendly, you know, almost, I don't know, southern California ... I just like, I reply like, "Oh thank you so much. That ..." Like I just treat them as if they were the nicest person in the world ...

Jae:
[8:17] That is so helpful for me, Manuel. Thank you so, so much.

Manuel:
[8:20] It's slightly passive-aggressive, but I swear to God it works, because it throws them off. Like you can tell in their in their eyes that they don't really know what to do now, and usually it like takes it down a notch at least.

[8:33] Yeah, that's true. I mean that doesn't always work. Like I think if you're in a situation where you expect things to be like that, it's okay, and if you're in the right mood for it. But if you are in a vulnerable situation, then maybe you don't have a strategy, and then maybe crying is the right thing? I don't know.

Jae:

[8:52] How do you feel about just flicking someone off? Because sometimes I'm just ... I'm just there! Sometimes I'm just like ...

Manuel:
[8:56] Yeah? That can escalate quickly, is the problem. That's ... Yeah.

Jae:
[8:59] Exactly. And that's why I haven't done it. I'm just like ...

Cari:
[9:02] That's what I sometimes do in traffic, but just in the ...

Manuel:
[9:05] You do what?! This is interesting!

Cari:
[9:06] Like just on the highway when there's no other way. Like I feel like if I honk it's too disturbing, so I just give people looks or fingers! I don't know, I feel like I'm sometimes I'm being ... I mean, I'm never the aggressor. So like I'm just, you know ... responding to people because what do you do on the highway? But that's another ...

Jae:
[9:25] ... Matching the energy.

Manuel:
[9:30] So instead of flipping people off, I recommend waving and smiling.

Cari:
[9:37] Yeah, I'm talking about a different situation. But like okay, I can give you an example of like, the first time I went to a hospital in Berlin, that was like where my actual culture shock happened. Because that was already ... I've already been in Berlin for three years, and I felt like: Okay, I'm used to, you know ... For example, I'm sitting in a restaurant, the person brings the wrong dish or the wrong drink, and I'm saying like, "Hey, I ordered this," and they are mad at you for letting them know they made a mistake. They're not saying like: Oh, I'm sorry, let me bring you something else. They are like, "So what!" And then they said: "Ja, und? Dann essen Sie ..." - no, maybe not like that - but I have seen this many times, and I've seen it in groups of, like, with foreigners who are even like more like shocked about this than I am. But I remember when I first came to the hospital in Berlin, like I was really in a vulnerable situation. I felt like I didn't know exactly what I had, so I had to go to hospital to take some examinations, and I could have had, or there was the idea that I could have had something you know serious [sincere]. So I was like vulnerable. I came in, and first thing, they told me I'm at the wrong place, I need to register first. So it's like, "Hier is keine Registrierung!" or first, "Sie müssen zur Registrierung gehen!" and then I'm like, "Okay, could you please tell me where the registration is?" I go there, there's a person who has time, I'm at the right place, lucky me! So I take this questionnaire that includes like: In the case of death, what should we do with your body? While another person comes in, and I see in her eyes that she's just as ... like in the same state that I was, you know, like feeling ...

Jae:
[11:18] Oh my God!

Cari:
[11:27] ... feeling insecure and maybe being afraid of going to the hospital. That's something that everyone has, I think. And why are people not trained to accommodate this when you arrive in the hospital? There should be a whole welcome team saying like: Hey, how are you? Let me help you! Instead, people are yelling at you. So I sit there, and this other woman asked like, "Hey, I'm looking for the regis ... registration - difficult word! - and then the woman who talks to me and takes this questionnaire while we talk about my potential death, yells at her, and says like, "Can't you see I'm busy here?" And I'm like: Oh my God! you know, this made my experience worse, and the women's experience even worse, because that was her first interaction with the hospital, and this was just the registration. Like it went on and on, and I felt like ... like ... Then I had to come back a few times for some other checkups, and I felt like after the second time I already ... I treated it like a comedy. And I felt like: Okay, people are just ... it's just like ... I just feel like I'm in a movie. And I felt more secure, and I felt like more like: I know my places, I know the procedures. So I could feel more secure now and take it less personal. And if you can see it like that, it's actually kind of funny how rude people are - to themselves essentially, you know - like, why would you come with such a bad mood to work? And why would you ... ? I don't know. Like you live with that the whole day, you know. I just have a 10-minute or 5-minute interaction with you, but you've got ... Right.

Jae:
[13:04] ... You're like that with every single person ... Yeah.

Manuel:
[13:07] And is it ... I mean can we speculate on the reasons why this happens? One example that I also witnessed several times, is people refusing to speak English. Not so much in the shops or cafés, but in the offices like the Bürgeramt, and like ... And I was ... I had an appointment, and at the table ... it was like several tables next to each other, and at the table next to me, there was someone who had just moved here, clearly didn't speak any German, and yet the woman working there was speaking to him in German as if he understood, and just kind of raising her voice whenever he didn't get the question, and just repeating it louder. And I literally turned and I told her like, "I don't think he has hearing problems. I don't think that's the issue." And then I helped translate. And I kind of understand that it's like a mechanism to protect yourself against, I don't know ... like if you don't speak any English and you work there, like what are you going to do? I get it. But the solution shouldn't be raising your voice. Your solution should be maybe asking: Hey, is there someone you can call who can help translate, or should we ask the person sitting right next to us if they can help? Like why is ... ? What there was ... ? Resorting to raising their voice doesn't make any sense.

Jae:
[14:33] Yes. Oh my gosh, I've had that problem at least three times already. A few nurses where like I went to a place and I was like: My German is not good. And she continued to speak to me in German! I'm just like, I just used sign language at that point, where I'm like: Okay, she's obviously ... we're not ... I can't get an appointment. And then I tried to get like a walk-in Covid test and I was struggling to type it into my phone what she was saying, and she was just like: I'm just not going to help you. So then I'm like: "Does anyone speak English" Like I prepared those words [in German], and she was like, "Do you speak German?" And I'm like, "No, I don't." And it's like there's just like no sense of like meeting me halfway. And I think I said it in one of the first episodes ... of like, yeah, everyone speaks German and I get it, but also isn't it possible to meet people halfway?

Manuel:
[15:25] And it's weird because Berlin is like famous as the city where you don't need to learn German ever because everybody speaks English, and it's so diverse and international. And yet there are some situations where people are just really not flexible at all.

Jae:
[15:38] No, no. It's just this flexibility thing. But I think you made a good point regarding when you said, not taking it personal, which, that's something that I am definitely learning to do. Because especially, like whenever you go into these new places, you feel like all eyes are always on you, you know, that you're the reason, you messed up, or whatnot. But then you hear all these other stories and you realize that you're just one in a million people that have had the same exact experience, and that definitely does make it like a lot easier thing to go through, time and time again, when you're like: Okay, it's not me, this is just the culture here. That's just the vibe.

Cari:
[16:14] And I also think that Berlin is changing in a way. Maybe something we don't see, but I think people are aware that ... I mean at least some of some people are aware that things are changing ... some people ... I would assume that more people speak English now than 10 years ago, and that people are more used to, you know, like or more aware, let's say, that the way of treating people is not always working well, or that maybe other people have other expectations. And you know, for example, things you read is that Berlin bus drivers get special trainings now to, you know, speak English and treat people nicely! It's funny that you need training for that, but as a bus driver you are like a public servant, you know, you are there to help people, you transport people. And sometimes you have to communicate with them, possibly often during the day, and then if you yell at people because they, I don't know, use the wrong entrance or whatever you can do wrong on the buses, like, it's not helpful. And it's not helpful, not just for this person, but also for the image of the city of Berlin, the image of Germany, the fact ... I mean, Germany needs migrants, and this is something that is now, I think, slowly understood, that it's not like we can afford to scare people off forever: Thanks for being here, just ... and coping with it!

Jae:
[17:51] Yeah, thank you! You know, and that that was another thing that like I always like felt conflicted about, was like how welcomed I was in the city base of that type of mentality and how welcome, you know, migrants are. Because I'm a person who, you know, always believes that we should always be able to move to where we want to, and this is a great opportunity for me to experience and indulge in a culture. But it's a weird like negative spiral when like a lot of people here are maybe upset that a lot of people aren't learning German or not adapting, but they also don't make it easy for those people to adapt and learn and to assimilate into the culture. So it's like, if you want people to like embrace the culture and you want people to adapt, you want people to learn, you want people to actually know be able to speak it eventually one day, then you have to meet them halfway. And it seems like there's like sometimes none of that push-and-pull type of thing. But then once again, it always does vary, depending on who you meet and like where you're at, because like, when I went to one of the doctor's offices, it was the only one that spoke English to me, and I was so nervous, so nervous. And then she was like, "It's okay. Calm down." And I'm like, "Thank you! Thank you!" So there's always like those small moments where people are really good. But it's like ... Oh, word of advice: when you enter into a store, you just never know who you're gonna get.

Manuel:
[19:20] Okay, speaking of learning German, which will ... I mean it will alleviate all of this a little bit, once you're able to just talk.

The Best Way to Learn German

Cari:
[19:30] Yeah, you can yell back!

Manuel:
[19:35] You can say, "Actually, I speak ... Ich spreche Deutsch!" So, obviously you've dedicated your life to teaching people learn German.

Cari:
[19:45] That sounds a lot.

Manuel:
[19:47] By accident, kind of?

Cari:
[19:48] Yes.

Manuel:

[19:55] So I guess our question, or what we wanted to talk about is, besides obviously watching and listening to Easy German, what's the best way to learn German, once you're in Berlin?

Cari:
[20:12] Oh, I guess there are many ways, but essentially I guess it's a mix. Like you should listen, you should speak, you should write, and you should read ... what other things are there ... ?

Manuel:
[20:26] So for someone listening who hasn't started learning German at all and is planning to come to Berlin, how long, how much time, what's the time investment to get to a level that will get you through everyday life pretty well? And what's that level?

Cari:
[20:41] Oof! That's ... I mean that's, maybe I'm not like... I mean I can just say that it's very, very different. There's like maybe, I guess, if you know the A1 vocabulary and you have done an A1 course, I mean you can talk, or you know the basic vocabulary, that doesn't mean you understand everything in everyday life. Because people, you know, use abbreviations or slang, or there are more difficult words than A1. So I guess it's like a process, and you should treat it as a process always. Like even if you've like been learning for five years, you will still learn new things. But I mean there are some people who can, you know, understand a lot of things after three or six months if you dedicate a lot of time. That means like maybe not just 10 minutes a day, as I currently do in Spanish and then I forget everything again, but you should dedicate, I guess, one or two hours a day, and then I guess you'll make progress faster. And I would assume ... And I mean there's even the option to do a full-time course. If you can afford that because you have time and money, then I guess that makes it even faster if you like, you know, you have conversation classes four hours a day, you read and listen to things two hours a day, I guess you'll be able to progress pretty quickly. But you know, there are people who need more time, and that's also okay.

Jae:
[22:20] And I would like to emphasize that it's okay to take more time. I am very excited for the, you know, the journey of learning German or whatnot, but it was definitely one of those things where, especially moving here and with all the other things that I was doing, adding learning German on top of that, it added a little bit to like my stress of moving here and getting like assimilated and everything. And one of the things that I'm realizing now, is that it's going to take a little bit of time for me to get to that point, and that's okay, you know. It's okay to take baby steps. Like I'm taking a one of our German classes right now, it's A1, and one of the girls in my class she's been here for two years! So I'm like, if she's been here for two years and she's doing A1, I'm okay to relax.

Cari:
[23:10] Absolutely, yeah, you shouldn't have any pressure. It's also okay if you're here for five years and you're taking A1, because there are reasons, you know, and it's not that ... I mean obviously it helps you to speak German if you are in Germany, but it's not that it's necessary, you know. If it was necessary, people wouldn't be living here for ten years without speaking German. You can get along pretty well, and you can make friends, you can go out, you can even go to the doctor in English - maybe not to every one! - but it's absolutely possible to live here without speaking German.

Manuel:
[23:44] And even if you don't do any active learning, you automatically pick up the language somewhat, just by being here. But I will make a strong case for being - what's the word? - dedicated, or like not just learning through assimilation. I think that can work for some people better than for others. Being intentional, yes, being very intentional with ... And I agree with you that you can take your time. If you don't have any time, then spend 20 minutes a day, but be intentional about those 20 minutes. And Cari, you mentioned this as a recommendation for people who have the time and the money, but I really agree that starting off with some kind of intensive course can really kind of kickstart your journey. Like when I moved to Poland, I had the privilege of doing a two-week, full-time intensive course. And I came there with like an A1 level, and then like that brought me, I don't know, to an A2 level or something. Like it just ... it was really helpful to have that kickstart at the beginning, and then to, like, throughout the year that I lived there, learn intentionally. And yeah, if you can do that, I would do the same. And then also, just besides picking up German through conversations and media and everything, just setting aside those 20 or 30 minutes to actually study. Actually study vocabulary, grammar, and it will make a big difference. And it will make a difference, probably not so much in how much you understand - because that kind of listening comes almost automatically when you live here - but being able to communicate, and communicating well, and kind of being happy with how you sound.

Jae:
[25:30] Another thing, that Chris had actually mentioned, was that he kind of used it also like where he was like speaking to himself, and also using it to more like survival methods. So like learning what he needed to get by, and doing that, you always have a reason to learn something. Because that was also some part of the struggle that I had with like: Okay, like I'm starting but like I'm not starting with anything I'm applying to my like everyday life. So I will spend maybe my 10 or 20 minutes learning vocab, but then I will forget about it. But when you're like constantly: Okay, let's say I need to go order something, or I need to go talk to this person, and go talk to that person, what's the proper sentence structure, what particularly goes like for this type of conversation or environment? That kind of, I think, inspires you to once again have more intention with how you're learning it and stuff like that, than it kind of being a little bit more random where you're not really able to apply it to your like everyday lifestyle.

Cari:
[26:32] Absolutely. I mean you should, if you are in Berlin already, or in Germany, you should take advantage of that, and build it into your everyday life, I mean it also has something maybe to do with how confident you are to address strangers, for example. I mean if you feel like that's an issue anyway, then it makes it more difficult. Like for example, when I was younger, I worked in a Dutch-German office, and one of my jobs was that I sometimes had to call people in the Netherlands, and it was expected of me to speak to them in Dutch. And I was already at a level where, if I had been more confident, I could have taken this as a positive challenge and said: Okay, now let's prepare for that. Let's test my level of Dutch and see how far I can go without switching to German or English. But I felt like totally insecure about it. I felt like ... I felt awful. Like I felt like: People will see or hear anyway that I'm not native, so they will switch anyway. And then I thought like: All my colleagues in the office are listening to me making the phone call, that's also annoying, if I say something wrong, everyone will laugh at me. Like you know, I had these thoughts and that it totally blocked me from having this positive experience. But if, you know, if you can like get yourself into this mindset and say like: Okay, this is ... like Berlin is my stage and I can just try things out without, you know, feeling bad about it. If you - and this can be small steps - you can say that: Okay, this week or this month I'm focusing on interactions in shops and I'm just learning the vocabulary I need, I learned like the 10, 20 most useful verbs, I learned by heart how to conjugate them, I try to understand and write down all the sentences that people could say to me, and I write down the sentences of things that I would want in the shop. And then I just go and try out things. And I mean, sometimes you'll have an unpleasant experience because someone's unfriendly, or maybe sometimes someone will see you're a foreigner and respond in English, and then you know your experiment, like, fails! But sometimes you'll have a good experience, and this will make you, you know ... this will motivate you to go further and do the next thing, and maybe now do, I don't know, a doctor's visit in German, or whatever.

Manuel:
[29:07] I have two recommendations that are related. The first one is from Raf and Rita from Easy French and Easy Italian - and I've heard it in other places as well - which is to, especially in the beginning, don't focus so much on learning individual words, but learn entire phrases because that will kind of kickstart you. Like you said, if you have some kind of appointment, learn some sentences that you can just kind of say the entire sentence, and yeah, you might get stuck when they reply and then you don't understand and stuff like that ...

Jae:
[29:38] Yeah, that's the plot twist!

Manuel:
[29:39] ... but it will - that's the part twist! - but it will help you kind of do more in the beginning than [as] if you're like trying to create new sentences all the time, you know, from scratch. The other recommendation that I have, comes from a blog that really helped me learn Spanish called deliberatespanish.com and we recently met the guy who writes it in Barcelona ...

Cari:
[30:03] Mmm, I also met him.

Manuel:
[30:05] Yes, it was very nice. And his recommendation was to write ... to have a 'mistakes journal'. So first of all, like ask everybody who you're speaking with, or who is German, or speaks German around you, to correct your mistakes. And then don't just say: Yes, thank you. Write down the mistake that you made, and then review your mistakes. I did this when I traveled in Latin America. I wrote down every mistake, that got corrected, either verbally, or I was also like writing a journal in Spanish every day and I had it corrected by my tandem partner, and then all those mistakes, I wrote them down. And then I reviewed my mistakes journal every week and I specifically noted the mistakes that I had been doing several times. And those I then looked at, and like made a conscious decision to not repeat that mistake. And it's a much more effective way to like get rid of these mistakes that otherwise can become habitual and then you keep doing them.

Cari:
[31:08] Thank you, Manuel. That's then for the advanced level.

Jae:
[31:14] Yes, I like that. But no, I definitely ... Being able to get feedback definitely can help out a lot, because sometimes if someone corrects you, it kind of just goes out the window and then you kind of forget about being able to apply all your mistakes like that, so it does help in the future. But also going back to when ... the plot twist that you said, my struggle is always with, I know the first sentence but after they respond, I'm lost! After that, I'm like: All right, back to English time. Because all I practiced was just that first sentence in a German and when they responded, I'm like: English now, or speak to me ...

Manuel:
[31:54] At least you say so. There's been many ... When I used to work in the Apple Store, I remember so many times people would come in and would start talking in German and continue the conversation in German, and then I'd ask them questions and then just say, "Ja, ja, ja." And eventually it'd be a question that wasn't a yes/no question, and they just be, "Ja," and I'm like, "No, no, I asked you how much space do you need?"

Cari:
[32:20] Mmm. But you know, you can also, you know, have a strategy for that, by learning a few sentences like, "Could you speak a bit slower?" or "I'm sorry, I'm still learning, I didn't understand that, could you describe that in a different way?" I mean not everyone will follow up, and maybe people switch to English, but at least then you have finished, yeah, and you don't feel overwhelmed, and you have kind of finished and closed the German part of the conversation. And it feels good.

Jae:
[32:49] Yeah, that's true, that's true.

Cari:
[32:52] So what's your ... like, how do you learn German now? What's your strategy?

Jae:
[32:57] My strategy is taking the classes, because that helps me, you know, be accountable. I need to get back to like my other stuff, but before, I was using Seedlang. I would do ... like if I was doing 30 minutes a day, I would do 15 minutes of Seedlang, then 15 minutes of Duolingo. So I'll probably kind of do that again. And then I think that - what we kind of talked about - I think the survival technique of like preparing sentences, like preparing intentional sentences, will help me a lot more, because if it's like just kind of the random-ish type of learning, I'm going to forget it, like I just know myself enough to know that I'm not .. the most important things in my toolkit right now. But I think like today my path is probably going to be learning those sentences, and actually now adding the, "Can you speak a little slower?" all that type of stuff, to it, too. I think process definitely changes, of course, because like right now my life is still changing. Like I'm not settled here just yet. Technically I'm not supposed to be here, if we're being honest!

Cari:
[34:06] No, you're still ... Oh, your visa runs out today, right?

Manuel:
[34:09] What? I don't ... I don't think this is something we should discuss publicly!

Cari:
[34:13] No, no, but it's fine because you ... like they confirmed that ... It's a common thing that Berlin offices are slow. It's like you're not the first one who lives through this. It's ... I know it's stressful.

Manuel:
[34:23] But then there's a grace period, if it's their fault ...

Cari:
[34:26] No, no. It means like if you have already filed for your visa and it's their fault, then you can stay. It's just like it's still annoying, because now, technically ...

Manuel:

[34:47] Yes, but I digress. Yes, we got there. But yeah, so like there's so much going on, and my life is still changing, so I still am trying to figure out my routine. So the process is constantly changing. Like I am not at a level where I feel I am confident enough to like sit down and like review German like each and every day, but like it's still - like it's going back to the intentional thing - it's still an idea of mine. And thankfully I work in a language-learning company, so like it's never in the back of my mind, you know, it's always in the front. And I think even just being around, you know, everyone speaking German or whatnot, I've learned to use those opportunities not to zone out but also to try to like zone in like a little bit, and see if there are words I can pick up on and stuff, just so I can slowly start to like kind of feel more immersed into it. So more my strategy up to now was more passive but still like conscious, if that makes sense.

Cari:
[35:51] Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I feel like what I've always been missing in the past ... Like I'm now using Seedlang for Spanish, I don't have much motivation to learn Spanish, I have to say, like ...

Manuel:
[36:02] Is there Seedlang for Spanish?

Cari:
[36:04] No, it's not out yet! I'm just testing it. But it will come soon. But the the funny thing is that I have always wanted to have such a thing. Like it's basically, maybe let's say, the current product is like a mix of, like, you can see new things, like on Duolingo, but also review them, and that's, what I'm mostly doing. Like I'm actually like just driven by the software. Let's say, you know, like I add new things to my reviews, and then I review them whenever I have to, and then obviously often I don't remember things, I have to set my reviews back and start from scratch again with some words. But it's great, because now I feel like I've memorized things. I've not put them into practice, but once the motivation comes, like let's say I meet Francisco soon ...

Manuel:
[36:58] Let's hear. What would you tell ... What would you say, if ... ?

Cari:
[37:00] Hola! Que tal? Yo soy Cari. Vivo en Allemagne!

Manuel:
[37:06] Ah! Muy bien, muy bien!

Jae:
[37:06] Come estas?

Cari:
[37:09] Muy bien! Yeah ... I cannot say that that much, but I do have ... like I start like building this passive knowledge.

Jae:
[37:11] Mm hmm.

Cari:
[37:19] Which is good. Like for example, I only wish I had such a thing for Polish. Because in Polish I do have a high motivation, and I do have lots of ... you know I meet Polish in my everyday life because Janusz speaks it fairly often. So if ... yeah ... once ... I mean I guess there's also like other vocabulary tools for Polish, but just the way that I can add my own reviews, or my own words to the reviews, and then review them, and that's something I would need for Polish. And then just being, in a way I feel like I'm being forced because I have my streak, so it's a good tool, even if it's like a playful tool. And it can potentially lead to nothing if you just follow your streak and, I don't know, you know, you never put it into practice because you learn maybe for ... You can learn for a year or more with Duolingo, or even Seedlang, I guess, and not be able to speak a sentence because you have just done vocabulary reviews, and you can press the right answer because you learned it by heart, but then you don't have an ability to phrase the whole sentence. So I guess it's always like a mix of things you need to do.

Jae:
[38:35] Yeah. And I do have to ask, like the gamification, and finding ways to make it entertaining, it can seem like a full-time job, you know, because ... especially if you already, you know, you have your entire work on top of that. There's something fun about learning a language, like I've always just seen ... just fascinated by everyone else and their like joy of it. So there's some sort of like joy or love that I feel is important to be ingrained into into it. And that can come from whether you apply to like speaking with a certain person, or applying it with a place that you really want to go visit, or applying it in some sort of way that is close to your heart, makes that thing easier to at least keep the intention going for a longer time so it doesn't just fizzle out in the end. And that's another good reason why I like being in a different country. Because I lived in France, learned French for a little bit, moved back to the US, forgot all of it. So being here in Germany, I'm kind of like in the environment where I'm always going to be surrounded by German, so it makes it so much easier for me to never forget that there's German around me, you know?

Manuel:
[39:44] In terms of resources, you mentioned the reviews on Seedlang, Cari, and basically what that is, is flashcards, right? It's spaced repetition. And I think that's another language learning hack, I think. Is to, especially in the beginning, focus on vocabulary. Because if you know the top 2000, 3000 words, even if you don't know any grammar, you can almost automatically understand a lot of sentences. You won't be able to create correct sentences necessarily, but you can already make yourself understood. So I think vocabulary is huge and spaced repetition. So flash cards, whether it's an app like Seedlang or there's other apps, or in a little book, or with little paper cards that you just then always have in your pocket, and you just do them when you're on the bus, when you're on the subway, when you're in line at the supermarket, you just do ... you just review three more words. It's like, it's the perfect thing that you can do in-between, and if you make that a habit, and you just make a dedication like: I won't scroll Instagram or Twitter, I will just review vocab whenever I'm in line. That can make a big difference. I think.

Cari:
[40:59] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then, yeah, that's ... for me, it's like it's both. It's like I feel like you can have the motivation and the chance to speak every day, but you don't have maybe the discipline, to, you know, learn 2000 words. But this is where, then, these gamification elements like having a streak, for example, can come in and help you, which I think is great. Because it's like for me, yeah, Janusz still learns with the like paper flashcards, and that's something ... it's very cute, and I think it's adorable that he does it. And he actually uses them in everyday life, he walks around with them. And he even gave me a box - and I think you too, Manuel! - because he wants us to learn Polish, which is so sweet. And I've started learning with them, but it's just something I feel like ... I don't feel like I can do this anymore. It's like ...

Manuel:
[41:55] Me too! ... Yeah. I like the haptic feeling, but it's just impractical. Like it's ... I have them on my kitchen table and I sometimes do them there, but it's I think the secret is being able to do it anywhere. And you're not going to ... unless you're Janusz, you're not going to carry them around, you know, places. So.

Cari:
[42:11] He has them everywhere, like in the apartment he has some, he has some in his like backpack, and so on. But yeah, I mean, to me, these two things, it's like they need to be combined, [so] that you have like the option to speak, which can be a class which can be a tandem partner, which can be ... you can also just practice in everyday life, you need to listen to stuff. And then you need to do all these things that are not so much fun. And if you have like a tool to help you make it become more fun, you know, it helps, but it doesn't do the job. Like you know, you can't just learn a language, as Manuel said, just from learning vocab.

Manuel:
[43:00] A few more Berlin-specific resources that I want to mention ... So one, not really Berlin-specific but really easy in Berlin is: find a tandem partner. There's the Tandem app, I think. What's another good way to find a tandem partner?

Jae:
[43:15] And can you explain what a tandem partner is?

Manuel:
[43:17] It's basically a buddy who is learning your native language, and you're learning their native language, and you make some kind of deal, commitment. When I've done it in the past, usually it was we meet once per week and we meet for an hour and a half, and the first 45 minutes we only do German, and the other 45 minutes we only do Polish, for example. And then, whether you just chat and practice conversation, or you work on a grammar book or whatever, is kind of up to you, like what you want to focus on. But the point is that it's basically two people teaching each other the language for free, and often it also results in friendship.

Cari:
[44:00] Yeah, and if you're new, it's also great to get to know people. It's like ...

Jae:
[44:04] That is a good one.

Manuel:
[44:05] Yeah, apart from that, language schools. You're doing a course at GLS, which is also an Easy German sponsor, like Seedlang, we should mention - full disclosure! Also you can get the free registration fee if you put Easy German in the comment field at GLS. It is a really ... I mean, I should ask you is: how have the courses been?

Jae:
[44:24] I like it, it's been good. I really like our teacher. It's fully immersive so they only speak German, which I think helps out a lot. It makes me really have to focus and stuff. But I think it's good. I think the setting is just like a nice place, and they seem to have all their like stuff together and stuff. I highly recommend it.

Manuel:
[44:44] It's a really nice school. I mean, I haven't done a course there, but even just the location is amazing, because it's right in Prenzlauer Berg, and it's this really nice building and the courtyard and stuff like that. So obviously we can recommend them. If GLS is out of your budget, there's the famous Volkshochschule. How would you translate, Volkshochschule?

Cari:
[45:10] Community college?

Manuel:
[45:12] Oh yeah, I guess it's kind of like a community college. It's like a, yeah, school for adults that exists everywhere in Germany, like a German concept, where ... Yeah, it's basically a community college. But you can do courses there in anything. Like they have a ridiculous amount of courses. It's like, you can do cooking - I don't even know - yoga, anything.

Cari:
[45:35] Yeah. I'm not sure if it's a good place. Do you know someone who did a course there?

Manuel:
[45:39] That's the thing. I did know several people, at least two come to mind, who have done courses and had really good experiences. I think it's a little bit hit-and-miss, because it really depends ... In the end, it really depends on the teacher. I think private ...

Cari:
[45:53] Yeah. And on the other people in the class. That's ...

Manuel:
[45:54] And on the other people in the class.

Cari:
[45:55] The problem I've heard from people is if you have people who go there because they have to, but they don't have really an intention to learn, and they slow down the class.

Manuel:
[46:05] Yeah. Yeah.

Cari:
[46:06] It can be ... and you really want to learn, it can be like a bad experience. But it is cheap, and if you find a good teacher and have good classmates, it can be amazing.

Manuel:
[46:13] Right. I think private schools like GLS have like an overarching concept for the whole school, and they train their teachers to adhere to that concept, and they're also really good at splitting up the groups into very precise levels, so that you're with people who are actually at the same level. Whereas Volkshochschule is a little bit broader, maybe, and you might be with people of varying levels, and I think the teachers kind of just do their thing a little bit. I don't want to do them injustice, but ...

Cari:
[46:45] No. They also have levels. You register ...

Manuel:
[46:48] Yeah they have levels. I just think it's probably a little less ... luxurious.

Cari:
[46:51] Maybe they don't have super precise placement tests or something like that. You can register for any level, and then you're in it.

Manuel:
[46:56] Exactly. But do they have ... so for example, GLS, I know, has like B1.1 and B1.2 ... I think Volkshochschule has that too! Okay. So yeah, I have heard good things about Volkshochschule, and so I would say you can give them a chance. The building might be ugh!

Cari:
[47:17] Give Volkshochschule a chance!

Manuel:
[47:21] Yes. Anything else?

Jae:
[47:23] Online, I mean, there's Seedlang, there's Duolingo ...

Cari:
[47:27] There's Easy German! Have we actually spoken about Easy German? ... There is like a podcast you can listen to.

Jae:
[47:30] ... We haven't! Yeah.

Manuel:
[47:34] I kind of assume that anybody ... Most of our listeners come from Easy German podcast ... But maybe not, maybe not. Maybe this podcast at some point will be ...

Jae:
[47:44] But you guys have some particular videos that are really good for just learning, like you guys just released the 100 words that you guys need to know. So like there's a lot of basic, A1 type of content that you guys have on the YouTube channel that's very helpful.

Cari:
[48:03] That's true. We do have an A1 playlist, and we're constantly working on it, even though the YouTube algorithm doesn't want us to do that. Because if we release super beginner content to our advanced audience - Hello, if you are one of these people! - they, I mean, they often don't fully watch it because it's too beginner's level, but it's something that we want to do. Like it's one of our goals to have like, essentially a curriculum, and to, you know, for someone who learns A1, is able to find every topic that you also do in a class. Maybe you don't, you know, just watch Easy German videos, but maybe you do a course and watch them for repetition. Or maybe at some point we have so many videos that you can actually do a course with our videos. Let's see where this goes.

Jae:
[49:00] Mmm. To be continued ... !