Show Notes
Transcript
Thank you to Temidayo for proofreading this transcript.
Manuel:
[0:09] Congratulations on being a legal resident of Germany!
Jae:
[0:14] Looks like you're stuck with me for the next four years!
Manuel:
[0:17] Four years!
Jae:
[0:18] Four years, buddy, four years. It took a long time. I was listening to our first episode and I'm like: Dang! So much has happened since then!
Jae:
[0:30] It seems like it, doesn't it? But it was like, we started in like February, right? February or March. And now it's August.
Manuel:
[0:38] Yeah, we're on Episode 11 ... So you got your visa. Do you want to explain what ... ?
Jae:
[0:47] ... Wow! ... Yes.
Manuel:
[0:48] Because in the one of the first episodes, we went through all of the different types of visas and stuff.
Jae:
Manuel:
[4:10] And the reason you were able to get it, is because our company is a German company saying: We would like to hire this American resident.
Jae:
[4:19] Yes, exactly. And it worked. It worked. And like I said it was just so surprising that the actual appointment was easier than everything else. Iza came with me to the appointment but she didn't need to be there.
Manuel:
[4:35] And so why is this a loophole? This sounds like the system working as intended. Why don't ...
Jae:
[4:39] Because if I google this, I don't find anything! I googled it, and there was like nothing on Google. It just takes you to the standard process. But like I didn't ... I just say, "loophole" because I haven't heard anyone talk about it.
Manuel:
[4:54] I see. And can we link to this website then? And so but is this what you would call a company sponsoring you? Is that ... ? Because I hear that term like ...
Jae:
[5:05] Yes. I would say that the company was sponsoring me. But I mean if I was applying for a work visa anyways, I could only apply for a work visa every time I - specifically a work visa - I can only still apply for a work visa if there's a company here who wants to hire me, as it were.
Manuel:
[5:20] Right. And so I think, I mean, basically what you want to have is a company that wants to hire you, and it needs to be a qualified job in the sense that you have to have had higher education or something like that, right? Like you wouldn't get a job at McDonald's that way even if McDonald's was able or willing to do the process with you? I don't know, would that work, do you think?
Jae:
[5:46] I I have no idea. I mean I wouldn't probably generally move to Berlin for that type of job, but I think it still has to ... Like the process is still the same as if you were to apply for a visa, the typical way of going on their website and trying to find your own appointment yourself, because there's still qualifications that you still have to need. I think it's generally the same - don't quote me on this - but it's worth like looking into if you are somebody who has gotten a job exception, or some company does want to hire you or whatnot. But it's technically them doing it for you, which I think, that's the difference.
Manuel:
[6:29] Yeah, that's the big difference. And that's why it's a better experience, because they're actually the customers, the German companies that are saying: Hey, we need qualified people, there aren't enough workers in Germany. Which is a huge topic, even on the political agenda, it's just the German industry is like suffering for qualified workers. And so there's probably a lot of pressure to have at least that part of the immigration system run smoothly and effectively.
Jae:
[7:00] Mm hmm. Exactly. I think also just post-Covid, I think it makes much more sense. But just finding a loophole ... because the typical process of going on to the website and checking morning to night trying to find your appointment, is similar to ... it's like the same type of thing ... if you already have ... like we're only talking about if you already have a job here. Then I'm like, if you already have a job here, then why don't they just encourage you to just say: Hey, talk to your company, and then go to this part of the website instead?
Manuel:
[7:34] Because I think, technically speaking, you can't already have a job. You can only have a possible employer who wants to hire you.
Jae:
[7:43] Yes, that's the same standards, though, for if you're just doing it yourself, too. Like you can't work without a visa. The whole thing is applying for the visa.
Manuel:
[7:52] Right. So you can work here. Yeah, yeah, a little bit of a catch-22.
Jae:
[7:58] So yeah, so I would just recommend anyone to try to just look on that side of things. Like I say, I don't know the specific details of why that's not more of a conversation. I don't know how new of that process that is or whatnot, but it worked for us. Like it still took a lot of time. Like we applied in May and they did not really get back, we didn't really hear back from them until August, so it's still took those three months, and stuff like that.
Manuel:
[8:27] Yeah, but that's fast for German bureaucracy.
Jae:
[8:29] Yeah, and I think because we're also a company doing this, it's urgent, you know: We need this person to work for us, or whatnot.
Manuel:
[8:33] Yeah.
Jae:
[8:38] So yeah, that's your tip right there. And like I said, they approved me for four years, so ...
Manuel:
[8:43] So we'll talk about jobs more later on, but I want to know what happens after those four years.
Jae:
[8:50] I guess you can renew it, you know.
Manuel:
[8:53] Yeah, I think so too. I think the four years is just so that you don't ... Because I think if you quit your job, you can then still stay, right? Like it's valid, no matter what. You can find another job.
Jae:
[9:03] Yeah.
Manuel:
[9:06] But yeah, if you don't do anything, then after four years you have to leave or go through the same process again.
Jae:
[9:14] Yeah. I mean, I think with any visa permit, you have a certain time when you have to renew your visa permit.
Manuel:
[9:21] Yeah. There are unlimited visas that are short of citizenship but are like: Okay, you can stay here forever.
Jae:
[9:29] Yeah, that's essentially ... If I decided to stay in Berlin or Germany for a longer time, that's essentially what I would like to do, because ...
Manuel:
[9:37] That's what you're aiming for?
Jae:
[9:38] Yeah, because right now, I mean, Germany does not allow dual citizenship, which is such an interesting thing. And I'm not giving up my American citizenship.
Manuel:
[9:48] No. No sir!
Jae:
[9:50] Not for ... Sorry, not sorry, but not for Germany.
Manuel:
[9:53] Really, what's what's better about the American citizenship than the German one? ... It's an identity thing?
Jae:
[9:57] I mean I'm American you know. Like at the end of day, I am ... Yeah it is. I mean my family lives in America, like I want to always be able to go back to America. You know, one day I will probably live in America again, I know that for sure. I like Berlin but ... I'm not saying I don't like ... like, I didn't come here for Germany, I came here for Berlin. Plus I would love dual citizenship.
Manuel:
[10:11] ... Not that much! ... I see.Yeah, that makes sense. The dual citizenship thing is something we should probably do an episode about. Because you're right, like by default you ... if you take, obtain, gain German citizenship, you have to give up your other citizenship, except ... and then there's a million exceptions. Not a million, there's some exceptions, like if your home country doesn't allow you to give up your citizenship ... Like some countries just flat out say: Look, like it or not, you're staying a citizen because for example you can tear up your passport, but you're still a citizen and so then you can keep 'em ...
Jae:
[10:49] Argentina is like that, correct? ... Which morally, is that okay?
Manuel:
[10:57] Well, that's a big question, you know: What is a nation anyway? and stuff. But anyway, yeah, that's a good topic for another time. You mentioned that you wanted to talk about hope and optimism.
[11:11] Yeah! So I was listening to our ... my ... the first podcast that we ever did, and I was filled with so much hope and so much optimism. And, you know, during my time here ...
Manuel:
[11:20] Now you're just a grumpy old ...
Jae:
[11:22] Which ... there are so many memes about that! Like I'm actually not alone. I think I was showing my wildest meme of tourists in Berlin: super happy, super great. Instead of which, Berlin is just really crappy!
Manuel:
[11:34] Aahh, everything sucks!
Jae:
[11:36] And like yes, I think I definitely experienced that part of things, but I think always at the end of the day it's still good to be optimistic. Because I got my visa. I got it, you know, so obviously it worked. It may have not worked the way that I expected it to, which Manuel also foreshadowed in the first episode around 05'30" but I think it's just very important ... Like, I did lose hope and optimism. A certain time, I was like, everything was just wrong, like, this is how it should be, or whatnot. And granted, no, nothing was as it "should have been" based off of my expectations, but I think it's still valid, you know, to not lose yourself ...
Manuel:
[12:22] ... in the music ...
Jae:
[12:23] Yeah, and not lose yourself in the challenges that arise, you know. Obstacles are not necessarily indicators that you're doing something wrong and that you should be turning away from things. Obstacles mean that you're trying and that things are going the way they do, you know. The mountain is like [inaudible] nothing about the climb, you know, so it does get challenging and it does get hard, but it was a goal of mine. So I don't think I'll be doing myself a service by, you know, quitting on that goal. Especially, I still haven't even been here for four months yet, you know? Like I'm technically just on like three ...
Manuel:
[13:01] Exchange student territory! Just, like a six-months exchange experience, even ... Yeah.
Jae:
[13:07] Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's like, if you're listening ... whenever you're listening to this, if you are in Berlin and you're struggling or whatnot, know that, one, you're not alone. Like everybody has gone through that. I have heard that from every single person, that it's not a singular experience. And then, two, you don't do yourself any favors by being pessimistic. I think that's also the thing too. It's like you can be pessimistic, but the universe is not going to justify why you should have everything if you just continue to be grumpy. Plus also, it's like, why let experiences do that to you? You know, why let things drag you down? It's very challenging and it's very hard, and I think you should show yourself compassion, and validate that you're going through some troubling times, but also, know that everyone goes through troubling times and it's not an indicator that things are going wrong. It's just an indicator that you are doing your best, and that things are working out in your favor at the end of the day.
Manuel:
[14:16] This basically answers the question that we got from Daniela, who's 30 and from Mexico City, and she wrote a very long and sweet email and really shares your feeling of Berlin has just always called her name. Like she was here once and she just - even though she's not into clubbing or any of the things Berlin is known for - really feels like this is her place, but a lot of reasons have kept her from pursuing that dream and coming here. And then she writes that: "I want to return but I'm terrified about it. I don't even know where to begin. All I have right now is my love for the city and literally nothing else. Meanwhile depression keeps me apathetic and demotivated a good chunk of the time, while anxiety keeps me preoccupied with all the ways that I might fail, and keeps my head filled with excuses of why I should stay in Mexico. Jae, you sound like a fearless person, but have you ever had to deal with these thoughts? If you do, how do you fight them or at least tame them enough so you can manage to move abroad?"
Jae:
[15:25] I was literally in the hospital. Like I deal with fear, all the time. And I think there's a medical ... I don't know who's it by, but it's summarized by like: Courage isn't fearlessness. Courage is being scared, and doing it anyways. And that's kind of like what I live by. Like I'm terrified all the time, having ... I have general anxiety disorder, that's literally what I was diagnosed with. It's always challenging and it's always terrifying, you know, especially if you don't know what's going to happen. And especially if you have expectations and then they don't meet your expectations - even more scary - because you're just like: What the hell is happening? Why is everything going wrong? What did I do wrong? You know, you have all these thoughts and all of these like ... like just ... just like fearful ... just energy all around you, you know? I think the biggest thing is to show yourself compassion, and also just you know ... Like when I say. show yourself compassion, it's like if your friend was going through this, what would you tell them? You know, you will understand, you know that there are new ... that things are ... they're a novice to it all, you know, that things are challenging, but they're doing it anyways. And you have to show yourself that same compassion, and you have to be patient with yourself, and be patient with the environment that you're in. If you're terrified of going, that's okay, you know. Everyone is terrified, you know. Like I might seem optimistic in the audio recording, but that's because I just don't want to listen back on myself and hear this negative person! But like I am always terrified, you know.
Manuel:
[17:13] And I think like there's something to be said about optimism for sure, but I think there's also the other side, which I guess is kind of stoicism or actively imagining. Like following that fear through, like looking at it in the eye and following it through to its ... Like basically saying: Okay, so if that actually happens, let me paint that picture. And then if ... like going through all the steps of everything that could go wrong, to the logical conclusion of: Okay, like I'm completely broke, I'm homeless and whatever. And kind of putting yourself in that ... like living that experience in your head. Or some famous Stoics have, you know, gone through the trouble of actually living in poverty for a while to actually experience, because then you can come out of it and kind of realize while that is obviously terrible, it's like: I've survived it, I'm still here and it's actually not the end of the world. Like it might be a painful experience, but you can survive it and knowing that even if you fall really low - which, you likely will never fall that low as your fears would tell you - that you would still be okay. And I think that's also like a good process to go through sometimes.
Jae:
[18:31] That's one of my biggest affirmations is: Everything is and forever will be okay. Sometimes, like when you're in the storm, it doesn't seem like it, but you always get out of the storm, the storm doesn't last forever.
Manuel:
[18:37] Mm hmm.
Jae:
[18:43] And like in my case, the worst that could always happen was that I just go back to the US.
Manuel:
[18:49] Mm hmm.
Jae:
[18:50] Which isn't necessarily the worst that could happen because I'll be going back to my family, I'll be going back to saving money, I'll be going back to people that I know, you know, so it's like, it wasn't that, that, that, that bad, you know? And I think it's just important to, I think, like accept that you will experience obstacles. And I'm not here to tell you that everything's gonna be all good. You might ... some of your worst fears might come into play. Like my worst fear was that I would not have my visa before my technical three months ended. And all of my fears, I have been confronted with them, but I'm also here talking to you about those fears that have happened in the past. So obviously I got through it, you know. I think what you mentioned about Stoicism is really a good point. Basically, Stoicism can be defined in one phrase, is: The Obstacle Is the Way, you know, which is actually a book by James Holiday, if you guys want to look into that.
Manuel:
[19:51] Isn't it Ryan Holiday?
Jae:
[19:52] Ryan Holiday, that's his name. I got the last name right! But essentially, you know, yeah, you are going to face challenges and stuff. But sometimes, you know, sometimes I do ask myself the question: Is it worth it? Is it not? I don't know the answer to that to be fair, but I'm doing it and I'm here. And I might as well just keep going with it, because the thing is, I think, also realizing that there is no easy way out, no matter where you are. You could even think that going back home is the easiest way, but home also demands [inaudible] some challenges, maybe just different challenges, but there's still challenges nonetheless. So if you're going to be facing challenges, why not face challenges in the place where you actually really want to go and you really want to enjoy, and stuff, you know? Yeah, and party. So yeah, I would say, try it out and just see, and know that once again, if things don't work out, you can always go back home. But if you do face challenges then, one, you're not alone, two, you'll get through it, three, you'll figure it out. It won't be easy, and I don't want anyone to think it's going to be easy. I think that's just toxic positivity, you know, like saying you won't have any problems, but know that if you do have problems, you always get through them, you're not alone, other people have had the same problems, and that you'll always feel, I think, more proud of yourself at the end of it, you know, once crossing that bridge. I've never regretted going through a problem, especially once I've crossed the temporary finish line. And so I'm like: Damn, yeah, I went through that!
Manuel:
[21:38] Final quote that I want to mention is attributed to Mark Twain, but probably wasn't said by him! But it's a great quote: "I am an old man and have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened."
Jae:
[21:52] Love that quote. I've heard that one before, too. A lot of your fears just exists in your head, you know? Most of the scariest things don't actually end up happening, and if they do, it's not as severe as it might be. Like my whole mental health episode, it was really bad, but it wasn't that bad, you know. I'm still here.
Manuel:
[22:10] Yeah, you're still here.
Jae:
[22:11] I'm still smiling. I'm thriving, you know. Still got to find a house, but you know, one problem at a time!
Jae:
[22:31] Yeah. So I work for Easy Languages, which, if you know Easy German, Easy Languages is like the overall like umbrella that ...
Manuel:
[22:39] The empire!
Manuel:
[26:18] And we're back! Quick intermission of ... three days!
Jae:
[26:24] We're in the future now!
Manuel:
[26:25] So what happened was that I had forgotten that I was scheduled to record another podcast episode for another podcast - which you may or may not know about. And so we had to take a break, and we're continuing our conversation now.
Manuel:
[26:52] I love how funny you find this idea of editing! Okay, yes, we're back, and we're talking about jobs, because I think we talked about optimism and stuff. See this is how bad my memory is, that I already forgot what happened.
Jae:
[27:07] First part is about optimism and hope, and now we're talking about jobs and actually being able to get here. And there's three categories of jobs.
Manuel:
[27:17] Right. I thought we could kind of split this conversation into kind of three different sections, starting with what I call the "gig economy" - I'm pretty sure I'm using that term wrong.
Jae:
[28:18] ... Pharmaceuticals, guys ... I mean, yeah, yeah. Okay.
Manuel:
[28:27] But yeah. And then I even saw these ads for an app where you can get kind of luxury goods like Apple products and jewelry and stuff delivered within 15 minutes. You know, if the mood strikes you and you're in the mood for a new iPhone, you can have it ...
Jae:
[28:44] There is nothing you can't get.
Manuel:
[28:46] ... within 15 minutes, and someone who's severely underpaid will bring it on a bicycle. That's my impression of that kind of realm, and that's as much as I know about it really. I kind of hope we can do an episode with some people who are doing those kinds of jobs, so who are delivering for Wolt or Lieferando or any of those companies, to hear how it's going. I hear a lot of really bad things about some of those companies: Gorillas, which is delivering groceries, has been in the news a lot for kind of treating people unfairly and stuff. Yes. And I think the other one ... What was the other one called? ... Flink, I think is a little bit better probably. But yeah, I kind of want to hear some first person accounts. I guess I would also put cleaning in this category. Obviously you can be like an actual full-time cleaner probably with a salary and a job, but I think the more common case these days is either to do it kind of illegally without paying taxes, or as part of the gig economy where someone books you through an app or through a website, and then you show up and get paid for that one gig.
Jae:
[30:11] Yeah. It's also like, babysitting can technically be a ... dog sitting could be a type of ...
Manuel:
[30:15] Yeah, those are like the old-school gig economy things.
Jae:
[30:18] Yeah. They still work though. Like I thought about that. I'm like: Why aren't I a dog sitter? Like I could totally do that.
Manuel:
[30:23] Yeah. Yeah, and I don't think it's black and white. I mean I really think if you just arrived at a place and you just need to make money fast, one way or the other, you know, it can be a good option. I just really always feel a little bit like people are probably being taken advantage of.
Jae:
[30:44] Yeah. Yeah. One hundred percent, one hundred percent. I mean unfortunately we live in a world where people are taken advantage of, but it's like what you say, if you need it, you kind of do what you have to do. Like in LA, if you want to be a filmmaker, you're doing a lot of free internships or a lot of underpaid PA positions in order to get what you want. Which is also a option of the gig economy doing ... it's like being an assistant somewhere, being a PA if you want to do film, if you want to do photography or whatnot. You can also find people who are looking for extra hands and stuff like that. That's technically gig economy.
Manuel:
[31:20] Yeah, I think now we're maybe transitioning into the next category. I just wanted to say, if anyone's listening who is doing any of these jobs, I would love for you to kind of pay us a visit on the show and tell us about your experience. Because I really feel like I don't know enough. I want to learn more, I want to learn what it's like doing those jobs. And do people tip? For example, like whenever I use one of those services - which obviously I do, it's just so convenient - but I always try to be a good tipper to alleviate my guilty conscience, and hope that then in the end it's worth it. But I just, I hear that many people don't give anything. So I just want to hear what it's like.
Jae:
[32:58] Mm hmm. Yes, which actually, in Berlin it's not really hard to get a visa as a freelancer.
Manuel:
[33:04] Right, the famous freelance visa. We did touch about that in the beginning.
Jae:
[33:07] Yeah, and particularly, or more specifically, the freelance artist visa. The freelance artist visa is a visa that you can technically get if you're lucky enough to get an actual appointment at the ... Ausländerbehörde ...
Manuel:
[33:24] Ausländerbehörde
Jae:
[33:25] That was close! If you're able to get an appointment there and you're an artist, you can actually get your visa approved that appointment day.
Manuel:
[33:35] Right, and then you're able to work on a freelance basis.
Jae:
[33:41] Mm hmm.
Manuel:
[33:43] Doing artistic things.
Jae:
[33:44] Yeah, whatever you call art. Walking dogs can be art if you want it to be! There's an art to ...
Manuel:
Manuel:
[34:50] Yeah, depending on the area, especially designers and stuff. And apart from Google, I think the most important thing is getting to know a lot of people. Because most people who need a designer, they don't necessarily post an ad, They ask someone: Hey, do you know a good designer? And so yeah, I think a lot of freelancers or entrepreneurs who haven't quite built a business that is sustaining them completely, do some kind of mix, where they find a job in retail or in a bar or whatever for two days of the week, three days of the week, and then do the thing that they really want to pursue on the other days, and I think it's a good model. Honestly, I knew a lot of artists and actors in my old job who worked in the Apple store for two or three days a week to pay the rent, whether or not they have gigs, and then to the other stuff.
Jae:
[35:53] Yeah, it's a good model, especially as it can be very stressful trying to just be a freelancer. Like I have friends who are on the freelance basis, and the thing with freelancing is you can have really great months but you can also have really dead months as well, and it can be very unpredictable, you know, So unless you have savings or whatnot, it is kind of good to have some sort of steadiness in-between that if you're able to, you know. Obviously it's not always easy, but if you can.
Jae:
[38:01] Can you talk a little bit more about this whole, taking a job that may not be your dream job? Because especially like when like a few years ago, when I moved back to America, I struggled with that because I'm like: If I have a job I want it to be the perfect job for myself. I ended up settling with a job that was not my dream job but it did pay the bills. And I can imagine that some people struggle with that. You know, there's a little bit of a pride thing there too of like: Well I don't want to take a job that is not anything in line with what I want to do. But sometimes, in terms of health insurance, there's some pros and cons that you have to weigh.
Manuel:
[38:36] Right. I mean there's probably always a little bit of compromise involved, no matter what. And at least I personally think it is a better compromise to do something that is okay, that pays the rent and pays the health insurance for some time, and then have the rest of the time free for you to really dedicate yourself to your dream and to your goal and to what you want to achieve, rather than settling on something full time that is maybe better than that retail job, but it's also not your dream. You know, I respect the people who are pursuing their dream and doing anything they need to do to make that happen, rather than saying: Look, I can live comfortably with this job and it's not too hard, and you know, I can just do that and watch TV at night. You know what I mean? So I think that retail job, it's not you giving up on your dream. It's the opposite. It's you doing what you have to do to pursue your dream.
Jae:
[39:42] Yes, exactly. And I mean, every - we're talking about artists in particular - every artist has that story, you know, doing the waitress job for, like you said, two or three days, and then doing your own stuff on the side. It's just necessary, you know. But it's also about how you perceive it as well, you know. If you perceive it as: This is something helping me, versus: Ugh! I'm doing something, that will make the entire experience much different.
Manuel:
[40:08] Right. And also, I think it can, you know, I'm banging on this retail example, obviously there's many other things you could do - and retail for some people might be their dream, I'm just giving it as an example because I'm familiar with it - but there's a lot of things you can actually learn there. And if you are otherwise dedicated to be whatever, a painter, right, and you're by yourself painting images, it's just a completely different world, and it can only kind of enhance your worldview and broaden your perspective to also do those things. Or if you're a writer, you know, you need to live life. I don't know, it's just, I think doing those kinds of things is something you should view very positively and not as a compromise that you shouldn't be doing.
Jae:
[40:56] Yes. You're not compromising on your dreams, folks, just doing what you gotta do to make it happen!
Jae:
[41:18] Yep. Yep.
Manuel:
[41:19] And so if you get a job offer in Germany, we can link to a website called, Brutto Netto Rechner, and it's essentially a calculator where you can put in all of the information: your salary; your birthday; your Steuerklasse, so like if you're not married, your default Steuerklasse is number 1, which, you pay a lot of tax; are you a member of the church or not, because we have church tax in Germany; which German state you live in; all of this stuff. You put it all in, and then it tells you exactly what your net income will be, like what will be the amount of money that will actually land on your bank account? And this is, I think, important to know, so you don't get a shock, and also so you can know how much rent you can actually afford and all of those kinds of things.
Jae:
[42:10] Very important. I didn't do that. Just ... but I'm grateful. But yeah, I definitely, definitely recommend just being as transparent as you can with your own self, you know, and doing that so you're not surprised. Granted, like I said, but the pros is you do get a lot of benefits as well from it. Like you're not just ... they're not just taking money out of your account and it's going nowhere, you know. You do see that money. And isn't it like at the end of the year, don't you guys have tax returns and stuff like that?
Manuel:
[42:38] Right. You have to do your taxes by April I think, officially, or September is like the last deadline for the previous year. And if you are only employed, like if you just have a regular job and you're employed, then usually you will get money back. So kind of depending on how many expenses you had related to your job, like going to and from work for example, and then obviously things like donations and stuff like this, all of all these things you can deduct from your work. I think that's the same in most countries. And then based on all of that, you will get anywhere between a few dozen and a few hundred euros back. And that's usually a nice surprise. So.
Jae:
[43:23] Yes. We love Germany.
[43:25] So should we quickly talk about how to find a job? I mean, it's so impossible to answer this, that I don't know if it even makes sense to talk about it.
Jae:
[43:35] I mean it still does.I'll give you the answer that I gave myself is: Google it! There's a lot of different methods of finding a job. I still don't remember how I found Easy Languages particularly, but I do think Google played a big part into that. I think it's important to take initiative to finding things. I mean you have Google, you have LinkedIn, you have there's a website called GoinGlobal: goinglobal.com. That's like internationally, it shows you like a lot of different - I think that's the website's name. Can you check for me? - It shows you like all of the job opportunities abroad that you can like look at. One of my friends said that so he decided he started visiting Berlin maybe three months ago, and only this month did he decide that he wanted to actually stay here. So for the past two weeks he was just, like he told himself he's going to apply for five or ten jobs a day, just throw his resumé out there and just see. And I think that is very helpful, you know, doing what you can to just throw it out there and see what sticks.
Manuel:
[44:54] GoinGlobal with no G at the ... Well I guess it's Going Global, but it's all mixed in one word, we'll link it in the show notes. LinkedIn, you mentioned LinkedIn. LinkedIn is huge in Germany, so yeah, you should probably, if you're looking for some kind of full-time job, probably have a profile there, probably look for job offers there. Berlin specific, there is a newsletter called WoLoHo, and that stands for Work, Love, Home, so it's three different newsletters. You can subscribe to just one or all three of them. And the work letter is just job postings, that's actually how they make their money. The other ones are basically free, like if you have a flat share you want to offer, that's free. But if you want to post a job as a company, you have to pay. And I think those kind of smaller circles, whether it's this newsletter or groups - I know you've had success with Facebook groups in many areas of your life! - I think it's good to be present in those and keep an eye out, because some jobs might appear there that don't appear on Indeed or LinkedIn or those kind of bigger things. And then obviously everybody knows this, but it is important to say, is that most jobs, I think someone did some research, I don't remember the exact exact number, but I think like 70% of all jobs never even get posted online ever because they're just ...
Jae:
[46:32] Through people.
Manuel:
[46:33] ... through people, through connections. It's really ...
Jae:
[46:35] Networking is important.
Manuel:
[46:36] Networking ... I hate that term, "networking" because it sounds like a task like ... right? Like I think it's just ... I think if connecting and having a posture of being in the world, right, and being helpful and sharing your knowledge and sharing your connections, if you kind of talk to people, and get to know people, and tell them what you know, and offer to help them, and you are in any way, shape or form, resourceful, that can lead to a job. Like I've seen it happen many times where someone just, you know, became part of some company or project because they were just helpful in the beginning, and then it just worked out that way.
Jae:
[47:20] Yes. The best advice that I always try to give myself and other people is very scary and daunting, but it's: You gotta put yourself out there. You've got to. If you're that person who stands in the corner and waits for the world to come to you, you might be very disappointed. Because like you said that they're going to go to someone else that they know, where they're going to have a connection with, and you, you have no connections, then it's like, how do you build that up? You know, the way that I am here in Easy Languages is because I put myself out there, I applied for the Easy German position, didn't get it, but I made a connection with you guys, and then a few months later, you know, it all came back around. It's very important, I think to keep in contact with people. Don't burn bridges. Make sure that you are keeping up these human-to-human connections. Yes, everything can be online, but nothing beats a human-to-human interaction. Nothing does.
Manuel:
[48:15] And I'm really a fan of this phrase that you said, "putting yourself out there." Because the beautiful thing of the internet, I think, is that it makes it possible for you to put yourself out there. Even if you're an introvert for example, and you don't want to be on the stage or at a cocktail party talking to everybody, you can start a blog, you can start a podcast, you can have a Twitter account and share resourceful things, or a TikTok account, whatever, but like trying to be resourceful and offering something to the world, you know. I love these stories where - some of them might also be apocryphal - but I think there was a guy once who basically thought that the American Airlines website was so horrific that he just designed a completely new one and gave it to them. He was like: Here, I made this, you should use this, it's much better. And I don't know if they even ended up using it or ended up hiring him, but I just think that that's such a great thing to do if you are young, and you have the time and the skill and the talent, just whatever bothers you in the world, whatever you see that could be better, just make it better and like give it to the world as a gift, and that will lead to so many opportunities in the future.
Jae:
[49:33] Exactly. Yes. You can only be rewarded for helping, you know, you can only be rewarded for giving, The best question, aside from what I was just about, you know, starting your own dog[sitting business] or whatnot, if you're asking: How can I put myself out there? Ask yourself the question: How can I help? You will find that answer. And then just try to help that way. But I just think, I don't know, I'm just a person, I don't want to die with any regrets. So it's like I would rather deal with the fear of exposing myself or putting myself out there, than not trying at all. And that's just the thing I can give everybody: Just try. Just try. Apply for your jobs, do your gigs, do your freelancing, just try. And eventually - I can't give you the timeline - but eventually it will stick.
[0:09] Congratulations on being a legal resident of Germany!
Jae:
[0:14] Looks like you're stuck with me for the next four years!
Manuel:
[0:17] Four years!
Jae:
[0:18] Four years, buddy, four years. It took a long time. I was listening to our first episode and I'm like: Dang! So much has happened since then!
Jae:
[0:30] It seems like it, doesn't it? But it was like, we started in like February, right? February or March. And now it's August.
Manuel:
[0:38] Yeah, we're on Episode 11 ... So you got your visa. Do you want to explain what ... ?
Jae:
[0:47] ... Wow! ... Yes.
Manuel:
[0:48] Because in the one of the first episodes, we went through all of the different types of visas and stuff.
Jae:
[0:57] Oh! Interesting.
Jae:
[0:58] So one of our amazing co-workers, Iza, - shout-out to you, Iza with the visa!
Manuel:
Jae:
[0:58] So one of our amazing co-workers, Iza, - shout-out to you, Iza with the visa!
Manuel:
[1:07] Iza With the Visa! She has helped me so much during this process. But essentially ... and if you're listening to this and you do work for a German company, you can actually apply for a visa online through business immigration services, which is kind of different than making your own appointment, you know that and doing it all yourself. It's something that I would think the government would advertise a lot more, but they don't. Such a Berlin-Germany thing in my opinion, but essentially what she had to do as the company, she had to create an account as the company and say: Hey we have an employee or we have someone - I wasn't an employee technically yet - we have someone who we want to hire and bring to Germany, and we need to get their visa approved. So you essentially apply online and you send all of your paperwork through them online. The paperwork process is a little bit tricky, and it required us to spend a lot of time looking at what was required and editing stuff or whatnot. But we were able to submit all the paperwork online and then ...
Manuel:
Manuel:
[2:26] Which is not common in Germany. Normally you have to send a fax!
Jae:
[2:29] Not common at all. Yes, yes, just, like I said, slowly but surely Berlin is moving towards the technical world now. It's the 21st century. Maybe the 22nd century will see a fully integrated system! But you know, this is better than nothing. So we sent in all the paperwork officially I think the end of May, and it took them until two weeks ago to get back to us saying: All your paperwork is correct.
Manuel:
[3:00] So we're in August now. So.
Jae:
[3:01] Yes: All your paperwork is correct. Here is your appointment date and time, be here. It wasn't me choosing, it was ...
Manuel:
[3:07] No, it's never like that. Anything the government wants you to ... it's not like you pick an appointment, they give you an appointment, and you are there.
Jae:
[3:18] Exactly. And thankfully, you know, I was available to be there, and, so weirdly, it was such an easy process. Like the actual me going into the building, whatnot. One, it's not the typical building that they do that type of things, it's like a different building, very nice, and they have a certain section for business immigration services. There was like no one in there, everyone spoke English, I literally just went and sat down. they just asked me for my passport and my biometric photo, and then typed in all the information. They said: Here's your paper, you're here for four years, you'll get your actual visa card in the mail in four to six weeks, pay your fee, and there you guys go!
Manuel:
[4:04] And so what's the visa, the type of visa you have?
Jae:
[2:29] Not common at all. Yes, yes, just, like I said, slowly but surely Berlin is moving towards the technical world now. It's the 21st century. Maybe the 22nd century will see a fully integrated system! But you know, this is better than nothing. So we sent in all the paperwork officially I think the end of May, and it took them until two weeks ago to get back to us saying: All your paperwork is correct.
Manuel:
[3:00] So we're in August now. So.
Jae:
[3:01] Yes: All your paperwork is correct. Here is your appointment date and time, be here. It wasn't me choosing, it was ...
Manuel:
[3:07] No, it's never like that. Anything the government wants you to ... it's not like you pick an appointment, they give you an appointment, and you are there.
Jae:
[3:18] Exactly. And thankfully, you know, I was available to be there, and, so weirdly, it was such an easy process. Like the actual me going into the building, whatnot. One, it's not the typical building that they do that type of things, it's like a different building, very nice, and they have a certain section for business immigration services. There was like no one in there, everyone spoke English, I literally just went and sat down. they just asked me for my passport and my biometric photo, and then typed in all the information. They said: Here's your paper, you're here for four years, you'll get your actual visa card in the mail in four to six weeks, pay your fee, and there you guys go!
Manuel:
[4:04] And so what's the visa, the type of visa you have?
Manuel:
[4:10] And the reason you were able to get it, is because our company is a German company saying: We would like to hire this American resident.
Jae:
[4:19] Yes, exactly. And it worked. It worked. And like I said it was just so surprising that the actual appointment was easier than everything else. Iza came with me to the appointment but she didn't need to be there.
Manuel:
[4:35] And so why is this a loophole? This sounds like the system working as intended. Why don't ...
Jae:
[4:39] Because if I google this, I don't find anything! I googled it, and there was like nothing on Google. It just takes you to the standard process. But like I didn't ... I just say, "loophole" because I haven't heard anyone talk about it.
Manuel:
[4:54] I see. And can we link to this website then? And so but is this what you would call a company sponsoring you? Is that ... ? Because I hear that term like ...
Jae:
[5:05] Yes. I would say that the company was sponsoring me. But I mean if I was applying for a work visa anyways, I could only apply for a work visa every time I - specifically a work visa - I can only still apply for a work visa if there's a company here who wants to hire me, as it were.
Manuel:
[5:20] Right. And so I think, I mean, basically what you want to have is a company that wants to hire you, and it needs to be a qualified job in the sense that you have to have had higher education or something like that, right? Like you wouldn't get a job at McDonald's that way even if McDonald's was able or willing to do the process with you? I don't know, would that work, do you think?
Jae:
[5:46] I I have no idea. I mean I wouldn't probably generally move to Berlin for that type of job, but I think it still has to ... Like the process is still the same as if you were to apply for a visa, the typical way of going on their website and trying to find your own appointment yourself, because there's still qualifications that you still have to need. I think it's generally the same - don't quote me on this - but it's worth like looking into if you are somebody who has gotten a job exception, or some company does want to hire you or whatnot. But it's technically them doing it for you, which I think, that's the difference.
Manuel:
[6:29] Yeah, that's the big difference. And that's why it's a better experience, because they're actually the customers, the German companies that are saying: Hey, we need qualified people, there aren't enough workers in Germany. Which is a huge topic, even on the political agenda, it's just the German industry is like suffering for qualified workers. And so there's probably a lot of pressure to have at least that part of the immigration system run smoothly and effectively.
Jae:
[7:00] Mm hmm. Exactly. I think also just post-Covid, I think it makes much more sense. But just finding a loophole ... because the typical process of going on to the website and checking morning to night trying to find your appointment, is similar to ... it's like the same type of thing ... if you already have ... like we're only talking about if you already have a job here. Then I'm like, if you already have a job here, then why don't they just encourage you to just say: Hey, talk to your company, and then go to this part of the website instead?
Manuel:
[7:34] Because I think, technically speaking, you can't already have a job. You can only have a possible employer who wants to hire you.
Jae:
[7:43] Yes, that's the same standards, though, for if you're just doing it yourself, too. Like you can't work without a visa. The whole thing is applying for the visa.
Manuel:
[7:52] Right. So you can work here. Yeah, yeah, a little bit of a catch-22.
Jae:
[7:58] So yeah, so I would just recommend anyone to try to just look on that side of things. Like I say, I don't know the specific details of why that's not more of a conversation. I don't know how new of that process that is or whatnot, but it worked for us. Like it still took a lot of time. Like we applied in May and they did not really get back, we didn't really hear back from them until August, so it's still took those three months, and stuff like that.
Manuel:
[8:27] Yeah, but that's fast for German bureaucracy.
Jae:
[8:29] Yeah, and I think because we're also a company doing this, it's urgent, you know: We need this person to work for us, or whatnot.
Manuel:
[8:33] Yeah.
Jae:
[8:38] So yeah, that's your tip right there. And like I said, they approved me for four years, so ...
Manuel:
[8:43] So we'll talk about jobs more later on, but I want to know what happens after those four years.
Jae:
[8:50] I guess you can renew it, you know.
Manuel:
[8:53] Yeah, I think so too. I think the four years is just so that you don't ... Because I think if you quit your job, you can then still stay, right? Like it's valid, no matter what. You can find another job.
Jae:
[9:03] Yeah.
Manuel:
[9:06] But yeah, if you don't do anything, then after four years you have to leave or go through the same process again.
Jae:
[9:14] Yeah. I mean, I think with any visa permit, you have a certain time when you have to renew your visa permit.
Manuel:
[9:21] Yeah. There are unlimited visas that are short of citizenship but are like: Okay, you can stay here forever.
Jae:
[9:29] Yeah, that's essentially ... If I decided to stay in Berlin or Germany for a longer time, that's essentially what I would like to do, because ...
Manuel:
[9:37] That's what you're aiming for?
Jae:
[9:38] Yeah, because right now, I mean, Germany does not allow dual citizenship, which is such an interesting thing. And I'm not giving up my American citizenship.
Manuel:
[9:48] No. No sir!
Jae:
[9:50] Not for ... Sorry, not sorry, but not for Germany.
Manuel:
[9:53] Really, what's what's better about the American citizenship than the German one? ... It's an identity thing?
Jae:
[9:57] I mean I'm American you know. Like at the end of day, I am ... Yeah it is. I mean my family lives in America, like I want to always be able to go back to America. You know, one day I will probably live in America again, I know that for sure. I like Berlin but ... I'm not saying I don't like ... like, I didn't come here for Germany, I came here for Berlin. Plus I would love dual citizenship.
Manuel:
[10:11] ... Not that much! ... I see.Yeah, that makes sense. The dual citizenship thing is something we should probably do an episode about. Because you're right, like by default you ... if you take, obtain, gain German citizenship, you have to give up your other citizenship, except ... and then there's a million exceptions. Not a million, there's some exceptions, like if your home country doesn't allow you to give up your citizenship ... Like some countries just flat out say: Look, like it or not, you're staying a citizen because for example you can tear up your passport, but you're still a citizen and so then you can keep 'em ...
Jae:
[10:49] Argentina is like that, correct? ... Which morally, is that okay?
Manuel:
[10:57] Well, that's a big question, you know: What is a nation anyway? and stuff. But anyway, yeah, that's a good topic for another time. You mentioned that you wanted to talk about hope and optimism.
Hope and Optimism
Jae:[11:11] Yeah! So I was listening to our ... my ... the first podcast that we ever did, and I was filled with so much hope and so much optimism. And, you know, during my time here ...
Manuel:
[11:20] Now you're just a grumpy old ...
Jae:
[11:22] Which ... there are so many memes about that! Like I'm actually not alone. I think I was showing my wildest meme of tourists in Berlin: super happy, super great. Instead of which, Berlin is just really crappy!
Manuel:
[11:34] Aahh, everything sucks!
Jae:
[11:36] And like yes, I think I definitely experienced that part of things, but I think always at the end of the day it's still good to be optimistic. Because I got my visa. I got it, you know, so obviously it worked. It may have not worked the way that I expected it to, which Manuel also foreshadowed in the first episode around 05'30" but I think it's just very important ... Like, I did lose hope and optimism. A certain time, I was like, everything was just wrong, like, this is how it should be, or whatnot. And granted, no, nothing was as it "should have been" based off of my expectations, but I think it's still valid, you know, to not lose yourself ...
Manuel:
[12:22] ... in the music ...
Jae:
[12:23] Yeah, and not lose yourself in the challenges that arise, you know. Obstacles are not necessarily indicators that you're doing something wrong and that you should be turning away from things. Obstacles mean that you're trying and that things are going the way they do, you know. The mountain is like [inaudible] nothing about the climb, you know, so it does get challenging and it does get hard, but it was a goal of mine. So I don't think I'll be doing myself a service by, you know, quitting on that goal. Especially, I still haven't even been here for four months yet, you know? Like I'm technically just on like three ...
Manuel:
[13:01] Exchange student territory! Just, like a six-months exchange experience, even ... Yeah.
Jae:
[13:07] Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's like, if you're listening ... whenever you're listening to this, if you are in Berlin and you're struggling or whatnot, know that, one, you're not alone. Like everybody has gone through that. I have heard that from every single person, that it's not a singular experience. And then, two, you don't do yourself any favors by being pessimistic. I think that's also the thing too. It's like you can be pessimistic, but the universe is not going to justify why you should have everything if you just continue to be grumpy. Plus also, it's like, why let experiences do that to you? You know, why let things drag you down? It's very challenging and it's very hard, and I think you should show yourself compassion, and validate that you're going through some troubling times, but also, know that everyone goes through troubling times and it's not an indicator that things are going wrong. It's just an indicator that you are doing your best, and that things are working out in your favor at the end of the day.
Manuel:
[14:16] This basically answers the question that we got from Daniela, who's 30 and from Mexico City, and she wrote a very long and sweet email and really shares your feeling of Berlin has just always called her name. Like she was here once and she just - even though she's not into clubbing or any of the things Berlin is known for - really feels like this is her place, but a lot of reasons have kept her from pursuing that dream and coming here. And then she writes that: "I want to return but I'm terrified about it. I don't even know where to begin. All I have right now is my love for the city and literally nothing else. Meanwhile depression keeps me apathetic and demotivated a good chunk of the time, while anxiety keeps me preoccupied with all the ways that I might fail, and keeps my head filled with excuses of why I should stay in Mexico. Jae, you sound like a fearless person, but have you ever had to deal with these thoughts? If you do, how do you fight them or at least tame them enough so you can manage to move abroad?"
Jae:
[15:25] I was literally in the hospital. Like I deal with fear, all the time. And I think there's a medical ... I don't know who's it by, but it's summarized by like: Courage isn't fearlessness. Courage is being scared, and doing it anyways. And that's kind of like what I live by. Like I'm terrified all the time, having ... I have general anxiety disorder, that's literally what I was diagnosed with. It's always challenging and it's always terrifying, you know, especially if you don't know what's going to happen. And especially if you have expectations and then they don't meet your expectations - even more scary - because you're just like: What the hell is happening? Why is everything going wrong? What did I do wrong? You know, you have all these thoughts and all of these like ... like just ... just like fearful ... just energy all around you, you know? I think the biggest thing is to show yourself compassion, and also just you know ... Like when I say. show yourself compassion, it's like if your friend was going through this, what would you tell them? You know, you will understand, you know that there are new ... that things are ... they're a novice to it all, you know, that things are challenging, but they're doing it anyways. And you have to show yourself that same compassion, and you have to be patient with yourself, and be patient with the environment that you're in. If you're terrified of going, that's okay, you know. Everyone is terrified, you know. Like I might seem optimistic in the audio recording, but that's because I just don't want to listen back on myself and hear this negative person! But like I am always terrified, you know.
Manuel:
[17:13] And I think like there's something to be said about optimism for sure, but I think there's also the other side, which I guess is kind of stoicism or actively imagining. Like following that fear through, like looking at it in the eye and following it through to its ... Like basically saying: Okay, so if that actually happens, let me paint that picture. And then if ... like going through all the steps of everything that could go wrong, to the logical conclusion of: Okay, like I'm completely broke, I'm homeless and whatever. And kind of putting yourself in that ... like living that experience in your head. Or some famous Stoics have, you know, gone through the trouble of actually living in poverty for a while to actually experience, because then you can come out of it and kind of realize while that is obviously terrible, it's like: I've survived it, I'm still here and it's actually not the end of the world. Like it might be a painful experience, but you can survive it and knowing that even if you fall really low - which, you likely will never fall that low as your fears would tell you - that you would still be okay. And I think that's also like a good process to go through sometimes.
Jae:
[18:31] That's one of my biggest affirmations is: Everything is and forever will be okay. Sometimes, like when you're in the storm, it doesn't seem like it, but you always get out of the storm, the storm doesn't last forever.
Manuel:
[18:37] Mm hmm.
Jae:
[18:43] And like in my case, the worst that could always happen was that I just go back to the US.
Manuel:
[18:49] Mm hmm.
Jae:
[18:50] Which isn't necessarily the worst that could happen because I'll be going back to my family, I'll be going back to saving money, I'll be going back to people that I know, you know, so it's like, it wasn't that, that, that, that bad, you know? And I think it's just important to, I think, like accept that you will experience obstacles. And I'm not here to tell you that everything's gonna be all good. You might ... some of your worst fears might come into play. Like my worst fear was that I would not have my visa before my technical three months ended. And all of my fears, I have been confronted with them, but I'm also here talking to you about those fears that have happened in the past. So obviously I got through it, you know. I think what you mentioned about Stoicism is really a good point. Basically, Stoicism can be defined in one phrase, is: The Obstacle Is the Way, you know, which is actually a book by James Holiday, if you guys want to look into that.
Manuel:
[19:51] Isn't it Ryan Holiday?
Jae:
[19:52] Ryan Holiday, that's his name. I got the last name right! But essentially, you know, yeah, you are going to face challenges and stuff. But sometimes, you know, sometimes I do ask myself the question: Is it worth it? Is it not? I don't know the answer to that to be fair, but I'm doing it and I'm here. And I might as well just keep going with it, because the thing is, I think, also realizing that there is no easy way out, no matter where you are. You could even think that going back home is the easiest way, but home also demands [inaudible] some challenges, maybe just different challenges, but there's still challenges nonetheless. So if you're going to be facing challenges, why not face challenges in the place where you actually really want to go and you really want to enjoy, and stuff, you know? Yeah, and party. So yeah, I would say, try it out and just see, and know that once again, if things don't work out, you can always go back home. But if you do face challenges then, one, you're not alone, two, you'll get through it, three, you'll figure it out. It won't be easy, and I don't want anyone to think it's going to be easy. I think that's just toxic positivity, you know, like saying you won't have any problems, but know that if you do have problems, you always get through them, you're not alone, other people have had the same problems, and that you'll always feel, I think, more proud of yourself at the end of it, you know, once crossing that bridge. I've never regretted going through a problem, especially once I've crossed the temporary finish line. And so I'm like: Damn, yeah, I went through that!
Manuel:
[21:38] Final quote that I want to mention is attributed to Mark Twain, but probably wasn't said by him! But it's a great quote: "I am an old man and have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened."
Jae:
[21:52] Love that quote. I've heard that one before, too. A lot of your fears just exists in your head, you know? Most of the scariest things don't actually end up happening, and if they do, it's not as severe as it might be. Like my whole mental health episode, it was really bad, but it wasn't that bad, you know. I'm still here.
Manuel:
[22:10] Yeah, you're still here.
Jae:
[22:11] I'm still smiling. I'm thriving, you know. Still got to find a house, but you know, one problem at a time!
How Jae Found His Job At Easy Languages
Manuel:
[22:20] So let's talk about finding a job. I mean you found the job before you came here. Do you want to give a quick explanation of your job and how you found it?Jae:
[22:31] Yeah. So I work for Easy Languages, which, if you know Easy German, Easy Languages is like the overall like umbrella that ...
Manuel:
[22:39] The empire!
Jae:
[22:40] Yeah, it's the parent company, and I am a partners manager. So essentially we have a lot of different teams, and my goal or my task, essentially, is to help manage these teams, help support these teams, help develop great systems and, you know, be the person they can look to if they have any questions or whatnot, and essentially just be a strong support system. So the way that I found Easy Languages, Easy German specifically? I don't know. I was not a fan ... like I did not know Easy German.
Manuel:
[23:15] "Not a fan! I actually hated it! I mean, I actively hated it!"
[22:40] Yeah, it's the parent company, and I am a partners manager. So essentially we have a lot of different teams, and my goal or my task, essentially, is to help manage these teams, help support these teams, help develop great systems and, you know, be the person they can look to if they have any questions or whatnot, and essentially just be a strong support system. So the way that I found Easy Languages, Easy German specifically? I don't know. I was not a fan ... like I did not know Easy German.
Manuel:
[23:15] "Not a fan! I actually hated it! I mean, I actively hated it!"
Jae:
[23:18] "It was horrible!" I didn't really know you initially. I didn't really know anything about Easy German, to be fair. Everyone asked me how I found the job, and I don't know specifically how I found the job posting for it.
Manuel:
[23:18] "It was horrible!" I didn't really know you initially. I didn't really know anything about Easy German, to be fair. Everyone asked me how I found the job, and I don't know specifically how I found the job posting for it.
Manuel:
[23:32] You initially applied for a different position and then we interviewed you and kind of kept you "in the pipeline", as they say.
Jae:
[23:40] Yes, yes, but I still don't know how I found that posting ...
Manuel:
[23:45] The original position, yeah.
Jae:
[23:46] Yeah, but essentially the original position was for video editing for Easy German, which now, like I don't know how I would have even done that, I don't speak German at all! I can't do that! It went to Chris, which, he is a great, great, great editor. But some way, somehow, I used the magical sauce of Google and I found the job posting, and I made a little video, interview or whatnot, didn't get the position, but that was okay. I spoke to Cari and I spoke to you. Like I remember, because Cari was like, "You should talk to Manuel. I think you guys would get along really well." Here we are, a few years later!
Manuel:
[24:23] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Jae:
[24:26] But then I was patient, you know. I moved back to Texas. So also one thing I will also say, is that things don't happen overnight. You made a good point earlier that ... What was it ... 10 years?
Manuel:
[24:39] Oh, this quote like: Becoming a millionaire overnight takes 10 years.
Jae:
[24:45] Yeah. Okay, so that's kind of the same thing with this whole Berlin thing. I was in the UK at the time, trying to find my way to get to Berlin. And I remember I applied for the editing position in February of 2021, right? So I didn't get it. So in May of 2021 I went back to Texas, ended up moving to Austin, I got a job there, and then I didn't really like my job. So then randomly Cari had reached out to me in November of 2021 saying: Hey, we have this new job position, are you interested in taking it or whatnot? Did the application process, two months later starting in January 2022, I started working with Easy Languages. Four months later - or three months later - in April, I end up moving to Berlin. So if you see my timeline, it was all spaced out and it took time, you know?
Jae:
[23:40] Yes, yes, but I still don't know how I found that posting ...
Manuel:
[23:45] The original position, yeah.
Jae:
[23:46] Yeah, but essentially the original position was for video editing for Easy German, which now, like I don't know how I would have even done that, I don't speak German at all! I can't do that! It went to Chris, which, he is a great, great, great editor. But some way, somehow, I used the magical sauce of Google and I found the job posting, and I made a little video, interview or whatnot, didn't get the position, but that was okay. I spoke to Cari and I spoke to you. Like I remember, because Cari was like, "You should talk to Manuel. I think you guys would get along really well." Here we are, a few years later!
Manuel:
[24:23] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Jae:
[24:26] But then I was patient, you know. I moved back to Texas. So also one thing I will also say, is that things don't happen overnight. You made a good point earlier that ... What was it ... 10 years?
Manuel:
[24:39] Oh, this quote like: Becoming a millionaire overnight takes 10 years.
Jae:
[24:45] Yeah. Okay, so that's kind of the same thing with this whole Berlin thing. I was in the UK at the time, trying to find my way to get to Berlin. And I remember I applied for the editing position in February of 2021, right? So I didn't get it. So in May of 2021 I went back to Texas, ended up moving to Austin, I got a job there, and then I didn't really like my job. So then randomly Cari had reached out to me in November of 2021 saying: Hey, we have this new job position, are you interested in taking it or whatnot? Did the application process, two months later starting in January 2022, I started working with Easy Languages. Four months later - or three months later - in April, I end up moving to Berlin. So if you see my timeline, it was all spaced out and it took time, you know?
[25:44] Really? Already? Aren't we starting at 5? Oh! Okay. Then I think we need to take a break!
Jae:
Jae:
Intermission
[Music]Manuel:
[26:18] And we're back! Quick intermission of ... three days!
Jae:
[26:24] We're in the future now!
Manuel:
[26:25] So what happened was that I had forgotten that I was scheduled to record another podcast episode for another podcast - which you may or may not know about. And so we had to take a break, and we're continuing our conversation now.
Manuel:
[26:52] I love how funny you find this idea of editing! Okay, yes, we're back, and we're talking about jobs, because I think we talked about optimism and stuff. See this is how bad my memory is, that I already forgot what happened.
Jae:
[27:07] First part is about optimism and hope, and now we're talking about jobs and actually being able to get here. And there's three categories of jobs.
Manuel:
[27:17] Right. I thought we could kind of split this conversation into kind of three different sections, starting with what I call the "gig economy" - I'm pretty sure I'm using that term wrong.
Gig Economy Jobs
[27:31] I think that term kind of originated with like Uber and stuff, where people do something and they're paid, not on an hourly basis or with a salary, but based on gigs, right, the amount of rides they deliver or whatever, and I basically mean those kinds of jobs, whether or not they're paid that way exactly. Like what I have in mind is all of these people who basically deliver things in Berlin. Like it's crazy what you can get delivered these days in Berlin, like essentially everything. So restaurants, obviously, cafés deliver with ... shops, drugs like you can get like there's like ... pharmaceuticals, yeah, pharmaceuticals. Drugs probably too, but I think it's ... I don't know if there's an official app for it.Jae:
[28:18] ... Pharmaceuticals, guys ... I mean, yeah, yeah. Okay.
Manuel:
[28:27] But yeah. And then I even saw these ads for an app where you can get kind of luxury goods like Apple products and jewelry and stuff delivered within 15 minutes. You know, if the mood strikes you and you're in the mood for a new iPhone, you can have it ...
Jae:
[28:44] There is nothing you can't get.
Manuel:
[28:46] ... within 15 minutes, and someone who's severely underpaid will bring it on a bicycle. That's my impression of that kind of realm, and that's as much as I know about it really. I kind of hope we can do an episode with some people who are doing those kinds of jobs, so who are delivering for Wolt or Lieferando or any of those companies, to hear how it's going. I hear a lot of really bad things about some of those companies: Gorillas, which is delivering groceries, has been in the news a lot for kind of treating people unfairly and stuff. Yes. And I think the other one ... What was the other one called? ... Flink, I think is a little bit better probably. But yeah, I kind of want to hear some first person accounts. I guess I would also put cleaning in this category. Obviously you can be like an actual full-time cleaner probably with a salary and a job, but I think the more common case these days is either to do it kind of illegally without paying taxes, or as part of the gig economy where someone books you through an app or through a website, and then you show up and get paid for that one gig.
Jae:
[30:11] Yeah. It's also like, babysitting can technically be a ... dog sitting could be a type of ...
Manuel:
[30:15] Yeah, those are like the old-school gig economy things.
Jae:
[30:18] Yeah. They still work though. Like I thought about that. I'm like: Why aren't I a dog sitter? Like I could totally do that.
Manuel:
[30:23] Yeah. Yeah, and I don't think it's black and white. I mean I really think if you just arrived at a place and you just need to make money fast, one way or the other, you know, it can be a good option. I just really always feel a little bit like people are probably being taken advantage of.
Jae:
[30:44] Yeah. Yeah. One hundred percent, one hundred percent. I mean unfortunately we live in a world where people are taken advantage of, but it's like what you say, if you need it, you kind of do what you have to do. Like in LA, if you want to be a filmmaker, you're doing a lot of free internships or a lot of underpaid PA positions in order to get what you want. Which is also a option of the gig economy doing ... it's like being an assistant somewhere, being a PA if you want to do film, if you want to do photography or whatnot. You can also find people who are looking for extra hands and stuff like that. That's technically gig economy.
Manuel:
[31:20] Yeah, I think now we're maybe transitioning into the next category. I just wanted to say, if anyone's listening who is doing any of these jobs, I would love for you to kind of pay us a visit on the show and tell us about your experience. Because I really feel like I don't know enough. I want to learn more, I want to learn what it's like doing those jobs. And do people tip? For example, like whenever I use one of those services - which obviously I do, it's just so convenient - but I always try to be a good tipper to alleviate my guilty conscience, and hope that then in the end it's worth it. But I just, I hear that many people don't give anything. So I just want to hear what it's like.
Freelance Jobs
[32:07] The next section/category, would be like freelance/entrepreneurs, anything where you're not fully employed, you don't get a contract with 40 weekly hours and a salary, but where you're kind of doing a job here and there, and being paid based on those jobs. So that's basically what you were saying: technically those jobs would usually be either freelance or ... yeah, freelance, I guess. I guess the difference between freelance and entrepreneur is really important. Freelance would be you looking for jobs, individual jobs that people give you that you do, and entrepreneur is obviously you building your own thing ... business. So they're very different in that way, but I put them in the same bucket because they're basically you having some skill or talent and trying to monetize it.Jae:
[32:58] Mm hmm. Yes, which actually, in Berlin it's not really hard to get a visa as a freelancer.
Manuel:
[33:04] Right, the famous freelance visa. We did touch about that in the beginning.
Jae:
[33:07] Yeah, and particularly, or more specifically, the freelance artist visa. The freelance artist visa is a visa that you can technically get if you're lucky enough to get an actual appointment at the ... Ausländerbehörde ...
Manuel:
[33:24] Ausländerbehörde
Jae:
[33:25] That was close! If you're able to get an appointment there and you're an artist, you can actually get your visa approved that appointment day.
Manuel:
[33:35] Right, and then you're able to work on a freelance basis.
Jae:
[33:41] Mm hmm.
Manuel:
[33:43] Doing artistic things.
Jae:
[33:44] Yeah, whatever you call art. Walking dogs can be art if you want it to be! There's an art to ...
Manuel:
[33:49] Really? I'm sure there's some more specific rules.
Jae:
[33:54] But yes, the freelance pathway is a good pathway if you do have a certain skill that is high in demand here, or whatnot. It's also important to make sure that you are able to find the right people who are going to want to pay for a freelancer or whatnot, which I think, if you're given the general quality skills, skills like, let's say, marketing, design, photography arts, or even business finances or whatnot, it's not that difficult to find jobs. There's a lot of online job portals who are looking for freelancers - or "contractors" is another term to use there - so I would just encourage you to use your best friend, Google, and find some opportunities there. It's a very common thing for jobs to not want to hire somebody, but just to want to actually have someone that they can just have on a contracting basis.
Jae:
[33:54] But yes, the freelance pathway is a good pathway if you do have a certain skill that is high in demand here, or whatnot. It's also important to make sure that you are able to find the right people who are going to want to pay for a freelancer or whatnot, which I think, if you're given the general quality skills, skills like, let's say, marketing, design, photography arts, or even business finances or whatnot, it's not that difficult to find jobs. There's a lot of online job portals who are looking for freelancers - or "contractors" is another term to use there - so I would just encourage you to use your best friend, Google, and find some opportunities there. It's a very common thing for jobs to not want to hire somebody, but just to want to actually have someone that they can just have on a contracting basis.
Manuel:
[34:50] Yeah, depending on the area, especially designers and stuff. And apart from Google, I think the most important thing is getting to know a lot of people. Because most people who need a designer, they don't necessarily post an ad, They ask someone: Hey, do you know a good designer? And so yeah, I think a lot of freelancers or entrepreneurs who haven't quite built a business that is sustaining them completely, do some kind of mix, where they find a job in retail or in a bar or whatever for two days of the week, three days of the week, and then do the thing that they really want to pursue on the other days, and I think it's a good model. Honestly, I knew a lot of artists and actors in my old job who worked in the Apple store for two or three days a week to pay the rent, whether or not they have gigs, and then to the other stuff.
Jae:
[35:53] Yeah, it's a good model, especially as it can be very stressful trying to just be a freelancer. Like I have friends who are on the freelance basis, and the thing with freelancing is you can have really great months but you can also have really dead months as well, and it can be very unpredictable, you know, So unless you have savings or whatnot, it is kind of good to have some sort of steadiness in-between that if you're able to, you know. Obviously it's not always easy, but if you can.
Being Employed
Manuel:
[36:27] The other part that maybe is a little specific to Germany, is that having some kind of employment, which is the third bucket. Obviously, like a full time employment job in Germany is defined as 40 hours a week, so five 8-hour days, but if you are employed even as little as I think 16 hours or maybe even less, then your health insurance and taxes go through that employment. And that's one of the big downsides of being just a freelancer, for example, is that you will have to pay for your own health insurance. And while everybody in Germany - almost everybody - has health insurance, it's not free. It's just that we have a system where everybody pays it and when you're employed, the employer pays the other half. And if you are freelance or self-employed and you have to pay all of it yourself, it is very, very expensive. And so having a small piece of the puzzle, where you just have a job where you're employed, then that takes away all of that, because your health insurance goes through your employer. I'm really bad at explaining this, I'm just saying this model where you take some kind of job - even if it's not your dream job -for two days of the week, kind of can alleviate a lot of the stress in terms of what do you do on a bad in a bad month, and what do you do about health insurance and stuff.
[36:27] The other part that maybe is a little specific to Germany, is that having some kind of employment, which is the third bucket. Obviously, like a full time employment job in Germany is defined as 40 hours a week, so five 8-hour days, but if you are employed even as little as I think 16 hours or maybe even less, then your health insurance and taxes go through that employment. And that's one of the big downsides of being just a freelancer, for example, is that you will have to pay for your own health insurance. And while everybody in Germany - almost everybody - has health insurance, it's not free. It's just that we have a system where everybody pays it and when you're employed, the employer pays the other half. And if you are freelance or self-employed and you have to pay all of it yourself, it is very, very expensive. And so having a small piece of the puzzle, where you just have a job where you're employed, then that takes away all of that, because your health insurance goes through your employer. I'm really bad at explaining this, I'm just saying this model where you take some kind of job - even if it's not your dream job -for two days of the week, kind of can alleviate a lot of the stress in terms of what do you do on a bad in a bad month, and what do you do about health insurance and stuff.
Jae:
[38:01] Can you talk a little bit more about this whole, taking a job that may not be your dream job? Because especially like when like a few years ago, when I moved back to America, I struggled with that because I'm like: If I have a job I want it to be the perfect job for myself. I ended up settling with a job that was not my dream job but it did pay the bills. And I can imagine that some people struggle with that. You know, there's a little bit of a pride thing there too of like: Well I don't want to take a job that is not anything in line with what I want to do. But sometimes, in terms of health insurance, there's some pros and cons that you have to weigh.
Manuel:
[38:36] Right. I mean there's probably always a little bit of compromise involved, no matter what. And at least I personally think it is a better compromise to do something that is okay, that pays the rent and pays the health insurance for some time, and then have the rest of the time free for you to really dedicate yourself to your dream and to your goal and to what you want to achieve, rather than settling on something full time that is maybe better than that retail job, but it's also not your dream. You know, I respect the people who are pursuing their dream and doing anything they need to do to make that happen, rather than saying: Look, I can live comfortably with this job and it's not too hard, and you know, I can just do that and watch TV at night. You know what I mean? So I think that retail job, it's not you giving up on your dream. It's the opposite. It's you doing what you have to do to pursue your dream.
Jae:
[39:42] Yes, exactly. And I mean, every - we're talking about artists in particular - every artist has that story, you know, doing the waitress job for, like you said, two or three days, and then doing your own stuff on the side. It's just necessary, you know. But it's also about how you perceive it as well, you know. If you perceive it as: This is something helping me, versus: Ugh! I'm doing something, that will make the entire experience much different.
Manuel:
[40:08] Right. And also, I think it can, you know, I'm banging on this retail example, obviously there's many other things you could do - and retail for some people might be their dream, I'm just giving it as an example because I'm familiar with it - but there's a lot of things you can actually learn there. And if you are otherwise dedicated to be whatever, a painter, right, and you're by yourself painting images, it's just a completely different world, and it can only kind of enhance your worldview and broaden your perspective to also do those things. Or if you're a writer, you know, you need to live life. I don't know, it's just, I think doing those kinds of things is something you should view very positively and not as a compromise that you shouldn't be doing.
Jae:
[40:56] Yes. You're not compromising on your dreams, folks, just doing what you gotta do to make it happen!
Tax Deductions and Health Insurance
Manuel:
[41:02] One thing that you should probably be aware of if you're taking a job in Germany and it's like a salaried job - and I remember you being surprised of this - is that we do pay a lot of taxes and other things like health insurance.
[41:02] One thing that you should probably be aware of if you're taking a job in Germany and it's like a salaried job - and I remember you being surprised of this - is that we do pay a lot of taxes and other things like health insurance.
Jae:
[41:18] Yep. Yep.
Manuel:
[41:19] And so if you get a job offer in Germany, we can link to a website called, Brutto Netto Rechner, and it's essentially a calculator where you can put in all of the information: your salary; your birthday; your Steuerklasse, so like if you're not married, your default Steuerklasse is number 1, which, you pay a lot of tax; are you a member of the church or not, because we have church tax in Germany; which German state you live in; all of this stuff. You put it all in, and then it tells you exactly what your net income will be, like what will be the amount of money that will actually land on your bank account? And this is, I think, important to know, so you don't get a shock, and also so you can know how much rent you can actually afford and all of those kinds of things.
Jae:
[42:10] Very important. I didn't do that. Just ... but I'm grateful. But yeah, I definitely, definitely recommend just being as transparent as you can with your own self, you know, and doing that so you're not surprised. Granted, like I said, but the pros is you do get a lot of benefits as well from it. Like you're not just ... they're not just taking money out of your account and it's going nowhere, you know. You do see that money. And isn't it like at the end of the year, don't you guys have tax returns and stuff like that?
Manuel:
[42:38] Right. You have to do your taxes by April I think, officially, or September is like the last deadline for the previous year. And if you are only employed, like if you just have a regular job and you're employed, then usually you will get money back. So kind of depending on how many expenses you had related to your job, like going to and from work for example, and then obviously things like donations and stuff like this, all of all these things you can deduct from your work. I think that's the same in most countries. And then based on all of that, you will get anywhere between a few dozen and a few hundred euros back. And that's usually a nice surprise. So.
Jae:
[43:23] Yes. We love Germany.
How To (Actually) Find a Job
Manuel:[43:25] So should we quickly talk about how to find a job? I mean, it's so impossible to answer this, that I don't know if it even makes sense to talk about it.
Jae:
[43:35] I mean it still does.I'll give you the answer that I gave myself is: Google it! There's a lot of different methods of finding a job. I still don't remember how I found Easy Languages particularly, but I do think Google played a big part into that. I think it's important to take initiative to finding things. I mean you have Google, you have LinkedIn, you have there's a website called GoinGlobal: goinglobal.com. That's like internationally, it shows you like a lot of different - I think that's the website's name. Can you check for me? - It shows you like all of the job opportunities abroad that you can like look at. One of my friends said that so he decided he started visiting Berlin maybe three months ago, and only this month did he decide that he wanted to actually stay here. So for the past two weeks he was just, like he told himself he's going to apply for five or ten jobs a day, just throw his resumé out there and just see. And I think that is very helpful, you know, doing what you can to just throw it out there and see what sticks.
Manuel:
[44:54] GoinGlobal with no G at the ... Well I guess it's Going Global, but it's all mixed in one word, we'll link it in the show notes. LinkedIn, you mentioned LinkedIn. LinkedIn is huge in Germany, so yeah, you should probably, if you're looking for some kind of full-time job, probably have a profile there, probably look for job offers there. Berlin specific, there is a newsletter called WoLoHo, and that stands for Work, Love, Home, so it's three different newsletters. You can subscribe to just one or all three of them. And the work letter is just job postings, that's actually how they make their money. The other ones are basically free, like if you have a flat share you want to offer, that's free. But if you want to post a job as a company, you have to pay. And I think those kind of smaller circles, whether it's this newsletter or groups - I know you've had success with Facebook groups in many areas of your life! - I think it's good to be present in those and keep an eye out, because some jobs might appear there that don't appear on Indeed or LinkedIn or those kind of bigger things. And then obviously everybody knows this, but it is important to say, is that most jobs, I think someone did some research, I don't remember the exact exact number, but I think like 70% of all jobs never even get posted online ever because they're just ...
Jae:
[46:32] Through people.
Manuel:
[46:33] ... through people, through connections. It's really ...
Jae:
[46:35] Networking is important.
Manuel:
[46:36] Networking ... I hate that term, "networking" because it sounds like a task like ... right? Like I think it's just ... I think if connecting and having a posture of being in the world, right, and being helpful and sharing your knowledge and sharing your connections, if you kind of talk to people, and get to know people, and tell them what you know, and offer to help them, and you are in any way, shape or form, resourceful, that can lead to a job. Like I've seen it happen many times where someone just, you know, became part of some company or project because they were just helpful in the beginning, and then it just worked out that way.
Jae:
[47:20] Yes. The best advice that I always try to give myself and other people is very scary and daunting, but it's: You gotta put yourself out there. You've got to. If you're that person who stands in the corner and waits for the world to come to you, you might be very disappointed. Because like you said that they're going to go to someone else that they know, where they're going to have a connection with, and you, you have no connections, then it's like, how do you build that up? You know, the way that I am here in Easy Languages is because I put myself out there, I applied for the Easy German position, didn't get it, but I made a connection with you guys, and then a few months later, you know, it all came back around. It's very important, I think to keep in contact with people. Don't burn bridges. Make sure that you are keeping up these human-to-human connections. Yes, everything can be online, but nothing beats a human-to-human interaction. Nothing does.
Manuel:
[48:15] And I'm really a fan of this phrase that you said, "putting yourself out there." Because the beautiful thing of the internet, I think, is that it makes it possible for you to put yourself out there. Even if you're an introvert for example, and you don't want to be on the stage or at a cocktail party talking to everybody, you can start a blog, you can start a podcast, you can have a Twitter account and share resourceful things, or a TikTok account, whatever, but like trying to be resourceful and offering something to the world, you know. I love these stories where - some of them might also be apocryphal - but I think there was a guy once who basically thought that the American Airlines website was so horrific that he just designed a completely new one and gave it to them. He was like: Here, I made this, you should use this, it's much better. And I don't know if they even ended up using it or ended up hiring him, but I just think that that's such a great thing to do if you are young, and you have the time and the skill and the talent, just whatever bothers you in the world, whatever you see that could be better, just make it better and like give it to the world as a gift, and that will lead to so many opportunities in the future.
Jae:
[49:33] Exactly. Yes. You can only be rewarded for helping, you know, you can only be rewarded for giving, The best question, aside from what I was just about, you know, starting your own dog[sitting business] or whatnot, if you're asking: How can I put myself out there? Ask yourself the question: How can I help? You will find that answer. And then just try to help that way. But I just think, I don't know, I'm just a person, I don't want to die with any regrets. So it's like I would rather deal with the fear of exposing myself or putting myself out there, than not trying at all. And that's just the thing I can give everybody: Just try. Just try. Apply for your jobs, do your gigs, do your freelancing, just try. And eventually - I can't give you the timeline - but eventually it will stick.