The Acceptance of Imperfection: Creating Music and Photography in Berlin

Transcript

Jae:
[0:09] So you want to start by introducing yourself, telling us your name, and who you are?

Michel:
[0:13] Yeah, sure. My name is Michel, Michel van Collenburg. I'm from Nijmegen, that's in the Netherlands. And I'm here in Berlin working on new music, because I make music that I still find - I've been doing it for years, but I still find - very difficult to label, but it's kind of electronic experimental music. And yeah, so I'll talk about myself: I'm married, I have three kids, one of which is still living at home. The other two are already on their own and fully grown up and having their own lives. And yeah, well, that's about it, I think.

Jae:
[1:06] So Berlin is kind of like your escape city sometimes?

Michel:
[1:10] Yeah, I mostly call it my home away from home. And I notice more and more that when I come here ... It was also ... I'm here for a week, so I came here Saturday and it was really shitty weather, it was raining and ... I don't know if I'm allowed to curse on this podcast?

Jae:
[1:29] You are able to say whatever the fuck you want to say!

Michel:
[1:32] Cool! And I was walking in the rain to my apartment from the Hauptbahnhof, and it was like I didn't even care it was raining. I was feeling so happy to be back, and I feel really at home here.

Berlin = Freedom

Jae:
[1:47] Yeah. So what made you fall in love with Berlin, and what makes you always come back to it?

Michel:
[1:56] What actually made me fall in love, I find it very difficult to define in maybe one thing. I remember the first time I came here years ago, and that's ... The first time you come to a city, you go to all the well-known tourist places like the Holocaust Memorial, the Brandenburger Tor, and all those things. And it was winter, it was very cold, but I still had an urge to maybe come back a different time of year. So I went back in the summer and I saw a whole different city, much more outdoor living and it's what I think - it's difficult to say this without sounding cliché - but it's the feeling of like equality or people being non-judgmental, and feeling free to be myself.

Jae:
[3:01] I love that you explain that. That's exactly what I always say when people ask why I moved here. The first thing I always say, like: Why did you move to Berlin? I always say: It's Berlin! Yeah. And that sums up it for ... But whenever I dive deeper, it is, I have never felt so free and able to express myself in a way, I think ... One of the things about Berlin is people don't give a fuck about you, but that in the best way possible. You know, it's people are all here doing their own thing, which makes all of my walls come down and allows me to feel free enough to do my own thing too. You know, there's a lot of other cities where culture and status and all of these expectations are always on you. And I feel like a lot of that's just thrown out the window whenever you enter into Berlin.

Michel:
[3:48] Ah, cool. But does it still feel that way? Because you're living here now for a year or more?

Jae:
[3:53] Almost a year, yeah. Yeah, honestly, I think if anything, it feels even better now because I'm so relaxed in the city. Like, some of my episodes, I've talked about just the traumatic experiences that I've had. But now that I'm more acclimated to the city and I kind of know the expectations of it, I feel even more relaxed. I'm like, Okay, I can like breathe, I can relax. And yeah, I feel even more kind of myself. I feel even more ... I feel that I have now the space to kind of just explore myself in all those types of ways, which is kind of interesting because when I come to a new place, sometimes I feel like when I first get to a new place, that's like the most freedom you have, because you don't know anybody. You know, so there's no expectations on you. But the more people you know, the more you kind of like fall into certain types of just vibes because you know, you are consistently with these types of people. But I don't know, I still feel that I have this freedom to kind of explore different parts of myself, feel free to express myself, and I don't really feel that I'm being judged or that I have to contain any aspect of me here.

Michel:
[5:04] I hear you say expectations of others pretty often. Is that a thing for you?

Jae:
[5:07] Yeah. Yes. I'm a people pleaser for one, but also I just think American culture is always about: What do other people think about me? We might not say that, but that is definitely the vibe that you get. And maybe I'm generalizing, but I went to university in California, and California is all about clout and looking a certain way, especially in the entertainment world and stuff like that. So you're always trying to present yourself in a way that is impressive to others.

Michel:
[5:37] Yeah, what I see from American society looking outside in, is it's very competitive. And much more competitive than European societies.

Jae:
[5:46] Yeah. One hundred percent. And that plays a big part in how you view yourself in decisions that you make, because a lot of decisions that you make aren't necessarily decisions that you make by yourself with only your input in mind. You're always thinking of: What do other people think about me. How would this affect the way I'm perceived? Is this the right decision? And yeah, I just go back to, I feel like all that is just thrown out the window whenever I enter into Berlin. Yes. Did you have one particular event or one moment that really locked in Berlin for you as that place to be?

Michel:
[6:33] Well, nothing comes to mind directly as like one specific moment. It was just, I think, gradually building, because the second time I came here, it was a whole different experience. And I think it was around that time also that I started experiencing the freedom of Berlin and the feeling of freedom within myself to be myself. And I think that just every visit that keeps growing, and now I'm just, I'm just, you know, [living] staying here. But I think it's still different from actually living here and working here because every time I come here, I'm not at work, it's basically my vacation, even though I'm working on my music. So there is an element of work, but it's different than [if] you have your job here, and then, so I'm aware of that difference. But I think it's something that gradually grew.

[7:37] And also maybe in the same time as ... I'm 51, so I should have discovered myself like years ago, but I'm still discovering. And I'm discovering within myself who I am, my identity, and the fact that I'm wearing a skirt today. Hats off to that! And I feel free to do that here. While the Netherlands, I think, has an image of being very tolerant that stems from back in the days that the drugs policy is being very open much earlier than than other countries, but it's in the last five to 10 years that it has become very right-wing, intolerant, judgmental, pointing at each other, having opinions on each other. It feels very differently if I walk in a skirt even in my hometown than it does here.

Jae:
[8:45] Interesting. And you said that's been more recent or whatnot. Do you feel like Berlin has changed also in these years as well.

Michel:
[8:58] That's hard for me to judge because I feel I'm here so fragmented in periods over maybe, I think, five or six years. I think you should live here to maybe be a better judge of that. But I, you know, I'm reading a book, I brought it with me, by Paul Hanford, on the musical culture in Berlin.

Jae:
[9:27] "Coming to Berlin." Oh! By Paul Hanford. And we'll put that in the show notes.

Michel:
[9:30] Yeah. It's a very good book. He also has a podcast on electronic music. And he's an English ... he was a DJ and he's now more of a journalist and writer. And why was I coming here? I've lost my train of thought.

Jae:
[9:57] It's all good. You were talking about the difference ... because you come here very fragmentarily.

Berlin Has Changed

Michel:
[10:03] Oh yeah. I was reading about it and he talks a lot about the gentrification of Berlin. And that's something I don't notice very much. But I remember years ago, maybe five, six years ago, I played in a small art gallery in Nijmegen, my hometown, and there was another act. It was a pretty weird performance act. Of a woman from Berlin. She did like an act with a wedding gown that changed in all different shapes, and yeah, it was kind of mind-blowing. But she was accompanied by an English guy on electric guitar, and we started talking before the show and he told me he lived in Berlin. And he also told that first he lived in Prenzlauer Berg and it was all really arty and music scene, and then, due to the gentrification, they were pushed out, and it's now much more families and kids and ...

Jae:
[11:03] That's definitely how I view Prenzlauer Berg now.

Michel:
[11:08] Yeah. I'm staying at Prenzlauer Berg.

Jae:
[11:10] Hey, it's a good place to stay. I mean, it's close to the center. I'm in Neukölln right now, and Neukölln seems to be the more like artsy area or whatnot. But I mean, for me, since I'm so very new here, I don't see those changes, but I hear it from everybody, to a point, honestly, where it's kind of annoying, "Oh my God, it's changed so much!" I'm like, "Okay, but I've never seen the change, so it doesn't like involve ...

Michel:
[11:34] Yeah, but now also in the Netherlands, in Nijmegen, there are a lot of shortage of homes in the Netherlands, so they are building homes like madmen. So I already see an effect on the city. I've lived here now maybe seven years and it's getting bigger and bigger and people coming from outside. And it doesn't have that ... it had a really villagey feeling to it, but it's losing that because it's getting too big. And I can imagine that if you've lived in Berlin for a longer time and you see all those newcomers and expats and ... you're going to: What's happening to my town?

Jae:
[12:14] Yeah, and we're probably a cause of that, too. Sorry!

Michel:
[12:18] Sorry!

Jae:
[12:20] Yeah. So you mentioned, and we'll get into the photography in a second.

Creating Music in Berlin

[12:23] But you mentioned that you're a musician. Did you do music before you came to Berlin? And then how has Berlin affected your music?

Michel:
[12:37] Well, I actually started with music when I was really young, maybe 10 or 12. But that was because my father had an old tape deck, like a cassette recorder - with, not the small cassettes but with the big spools - and I cut up tape and I was totally unaware of things like Musique Concrète and artists that were doing that, but I was just, I don't know, playing around and recording songs from the radio and making mixtapes and stuff. But I grew up in a family where arts and music was not a very big thing for the rest of my ... not for my siblings, not for my parents, they were really straightforward, you have to make money, very serious. And so I kind of lost that. But I rediscovered it maybe seven, eight years ago. And it does go kind of hand in hand with my discovery of Berlin is also the discovery of my making music. And those are very, I think intertwined with each other. And I've noticed it this week because it's the first time I've come to Berlin with the idea of: Okay, I'm going to spend time making music and finishing the music I'm working on, so finishing the album. And I have a studio at home where I can sit anytime of the day, working on music, and I'm not really used to what bands have more often, where they have to hire a studio or hire a studio time and have to say like: Okay, we're in the studio for this week and then it has to happen.

Jae:
[14:21] Yeah.

Michel:
[14:22] I don't have that deadline. I can sit in my studio whenever I want. So I was curious to find out what, what that would do to me. If it would like be a blockade or if it would free me up. And it's great. It's I wake up in the morning, I set my alarm clock, I sit down in a little studio area, start making music. And then after a couple of hours, I go outside, I do grocery shopping, I sit at a small cafe, drink my coffee, and yeah.

Jae:
[14:55] Classic lifestyle of a musician!

Michel:
[14:56] Yeah!

Jae:
[14:57] So when you come to Berlin, do you intentionally come here to make music as well? Do you make music with anybody in particular? Do you just get your own studio time here? Paint your coming to Berlin and being a musician for me.

Michel:
[15:17] Well, I work alone. So, and this time I already had a lot of tracks that were kind of unfinished that I made at home. And I needed to maybe have a focus on putting things together and really getting tracks done. I'm not a good finisher.

Jae:
[15:41] Same. Guilty!

Michel:
[15:43] I have a lot of ideas and I started a lot of things and then ... Okay, so you know what I'm talking about. And it's almost with making music, it's ... I find it much more easy with photography, but with making music, it's like I don't want to break something. Like I have something, a start of a track or a start of an idea, and then I'm worried that: Okay, but if I work more on it, will I be able to make it better or am I just going to make it worse? So that's my own kind of thing to deal with, and I can, because I have finished music, and also now this week, I'm very happy with the way it's going. But it's definitely a mindfuck.

Jae:
[16:34] Yeah. So when you come to Berlin to ... So you come to Berlin kind of just to finish in music or just to kind of have like a different space to try to work on music, maybe get a new perspective on things?

Michel:
[16:45] Well, both actually, because a new perspective and the feeling of being in Berlin helped me to get to new places with the stuff that I've made already, but I also made new stuff here. So in this case, it's mostly that combination of finishing tracks, but also of the unfinished things I had: Okay, what does it need? I had a very strong feeling that it needs to have Berlin! So I've been also out making a field recordings mostly in Prenzlauer Berg, just walking around taping conversations or just taping sounds of people walking or, you know, pulling twigs across a fence. Yeah. So that's a ... and I'm adding that in. And I was really, in advance, I was really thinking it needs that layer of humanity, and specifically the layer of Berlin in it. Oh, I love that. So it's a very Berlin-y record.

Jae:
[17:56] I am so excited to listen to it. Do you have a very creative spot in Berlin that you like to go to, to maybe like think or ...

Michel:
[18:07] Well, I can get inspired by anything. I was actually just waiting for you in the hallway here, and just ... beautiful old building. And I saw the granite steps, and they were really, I don't know, eroded or carved out. And I can imagine like hundreds of years of footsteps across those steps. So I can be inspired by literally anything. But I do have places that I like to go to and each time I'm in Berlin I will go to. I went to the C/O Berlin, the museum. They have a pretty good repeat exhibition that matches my visits to Berlin.

Jae:
[18:57] Yeah.

Michel:
[18:58] So each time I'm in Berlin they have a new experience. The last exhibition I missed because I stayed away too long apparently, which was on queer photography.

Jae:
[19:09] Oh, I never did that one, but I saw that one, yeah.

Michel:
[19:13] Yeah, I really wanted to see that. But I missed it. Now they had, for just a couple of weeks now, William Eggleston. He's an American photographer, or was an American photographer, one of the first ones to really work with color photography. And I'm a big fan of black and white, but his color photography is amazing. So yeah, it was beautiful. So if you have time, you should go.

Jae:
[19:42] I might try to check that out. Which that actually kind of can lead to the next conversation.

Berlin Photography

[19:47] Photography now. So you're not only a musician, but you're a photographer.

Michel:
[19:49] Seems like we practiced that!

Jae:
[19:52] I know! It wasn't planned, guys, it was all spontaneous! Yeah, so you're also a photographer. So how has Berlin impacted your photography?

Michel:
[20:06] I find it very easy to photograph here. I do a lot of street photography, and I always have a camera with me. And I always find interesting things here, even though this week, I noticed that in the beginning of the week, I was making photographs and I was looking at my photographs and I was thinking: I've done this before, or that's not very unique or new. So I thought I needed to challenge myself, and I went to shooting at night.

Jae:
[20:41] Ooh, I love night photography.

Michel:
[20:43] Yeah, and I've done also a lot of concept photography.

Jae:
[20:48] We have a lot to talk about! Yeah.

Michel:
[20:51] Oh, cool! And, it's... I'll shortly mention why I said that, and then you can talk all about your concept photography! It felt the same because in concept photography you don't shoot with a flash, so you're always looking for a light source that can help you light out the subject, and night photography feels the same. You know, you have to time ... you have to see a window that's lit in a dark street, and you see someone coming towards you. You have to wait until they are right by that window to have the light on them. And yeah.

Jae:
[21:32] Yeah. And I was actually talking to my friend, Rawad, who works here as well. And he was saying one of the cool things he likes about Berlin too, especially when the weather is kind of like this, where it's a little bit rainy and gloomy, is you can work with the reflection of the puddles and stuff here, too.

Michel:
[21:51] Yeah. The rainy streets and night photography are the best. So I've been bummed that the last couple of days it's been dry! Because in the weekend it rained a lot more, and I only did a few photographs in the weekend. But that's the most beautiful time to photograph. Yeah.

Jae:
[22:09] It is. Do you do a lot of film photography or digital photography?

Michel:
[22:13] I do digital, because I've looked into analog but it's so time consuming and expensive, and so I go for the easier way.

Jae:
[22:27] Yeah, it's more cost-efficient. I just bought a new camera, a Sony a7 III, for Christmas, and I've been doing it very momentarily. I haven't actually gone out to shoot, but a big reason why I bought it was because I want to get into concept photography, and I want to get into low-light photography and night photography, because I feel like Berlin has the perfect scene and setting for that type of photography.

[22:59] Every picture that you can take in Berlin can tell a story, whether it's intentional or unintentional. I feel like snapping a picture of a tree speaks so much volume, especially here, just given its history, given your intentions, given why you're here. And it's just super cool just to have that opportunity. I got a very cheap, it's not a disposable film camera, but it's a very just cheap camera. And most of the film I can get here is just black and white film because it's very hard to get color film. So I've been playing around with a lot of black and white photography. And given the right lighting source, the pictures that actually do come out is actually really cool. It has this very vintage, historic vibe to it, and it's really cool. Yeah, I just love that Berlin has this history to it, and when you take these pictures, I don't know, I just like being able to capture this history and this present moment. And yeah, Berlin is a city that I think does it really, really well.

Michel:
[24:08] Yeah, and I think that's another aspect of Berlin that I really like, that you hit upon there, is that it's not just the history, but it's also the greediness.

Jae:
[24:17] Yes, also.

Michel:
[24:18] And the roughness.

Jae:
[24:19] Yes, it's like very grungy here.

Michel:
[24:21] Yeah, and it's everywhere. And that's what I like also about Berlin, because if you go to London or Paris or other cities like that, it's like very compartmentalized. You have the poorer neighborhoods and that look really poor, and the better neighborhoods that look immediately very fancy and clean. And in Berlin, everything is just grungy. You know, you can live in a million dollar apartment and it has graffiti on it - as it should!

Jae:
[24:51] Exactly!

Michel:
[24:54] So that makes it easy to shoot great photographs also.

Jae:
[24:56] It does. And I think there's some relatability to that as well, because - I always go back to this - some person told me that the mayor at the time was interviewed and they're like, "How would you describe Berlin?" And he said, "Poor but sexy." And I always go back to this because I love that, because for me, especially when you're shooting in this grungy, gritty type of atmosphere, the bar of entry to Berlin is very low. You don't feel like you have to have a certain set of income, have a certain set of status to be here. I'm very hesitant to ever move to Paris or London, because those are already cities where already you kind of know it, you have to have this certain type of income, certain type of look or whatnot. And as you mentioned, Berlin has this crunchiness to it, where, for me, I feel very comfortable going anywhere in Berlin, and I feel like I can be a part of the city.

Michel:
[25:52] Yeah. I think that's because there's no feeling of status here.

Jae:
[25:57] Yes. Exactly.

Michel:
[25:59] In other cities, it's so much more, you have to look the part, you have to look fancy, dress fancy, your apartment has to look fancy, it has to be clean and spotless, and all that stuff. I don't have that feeling here at all.

Jae:
[26:13] Yeah, and it's really much, I get a lot more comfortable with that type of thing here, I guess, because you don't have to really overthink anything here. It goes back to just feeling free, feeling like you can really express yourself. So, Manuel mentioned to me that you've created a photo book. Can you explain a bit more about that and what does it include?

Michel:
[26:33] I should have given it to you because I have it for you in my bag.

Jae:
[26:37] Yeah, you can pick it up. Like I said, this is very spontaneous - Manuel has to edit this. Hi Manuel! - I'm actually going to be inspired to make my own photo book. Oh wow! Oh, this is nice! Okay, so I'm looking at your photo book right now. Yeah.

Michel:
[26:59] Yeah, photo book might be a big word for it, but it's a booklet that came with my last album. So you also have the album because I don't know if you can play cassettes at home, but...

Jae:
[27:11] You have a... Oh, this is so cool. Okay, guys, I'll just let you guys know he has a cassette of his last album, which is so cool, and then along with a photo book that compliments it. This is my vibe so much right now.

Michel:
[27:29] Yeah, so the cassette has 22 tracks on there that I made the last time I was in ... No, not the last time, but the time before. Last year I was here in December, and I was really at that time thinking about, you know, being somewhere, having memories. And because I'm coming back to the city more often, I'm revisiting places and remembering things: Oh yeah, I was back here when that and that happened, so those little fleeting memories and moments that you come to realize. So it was something that stuck in my mind. So I made 22 very short tracks to coincide with the feeling of short memories, and also the photographs I made at that time into that photo book and gave them like a photocopied look to express the fleeting moments, and the fact that memories fade and are not really high resolution but become more and more low res, as time goes along.

Jae:
[28:47] Ooh, I love that. I love that. I love these pictures and it goes back to like, anything in Berlin is like [inaudible]. Like yeah, it can be hard to make a bad photo here, it really is, and like I go back to like, each photo tells a story. Yes. How did you choose the particular photos that went into your photo book?

Michel:
[29:10] Well, I shoot very differently from like longer back, because I used to have a really big camera with all the interchangeable lenses and then you take more time to take a photo. I've been shooting for the last couple of years with a compact camera, so it's a lot more snapshots and a lot less time to think about composition, but just something that catches your eye and you shoot. And I've also learned to ... and I also love Japanese culture and philosophies. And I love the thing about wabi-sabi, which is the acceptance of imperfection.

Jae:
[29:55] Wabi-sabi? I'm writing that down.

Michel:
[29:59] Yeah. And it's, yeah, like I said, the acceptance that things don't have to be perfect. So before, I would really crop the shots that I took, and maybe straighten them out, and then make sure that the lamp posts are straight and all that. I've let that go completely. It's just now the photo, the moment, and that's it. So I don't crop anymore, I don't correct maybe the horizon to make it straight, it's just take it for what it is.

Jae:
[30:34] And there's beauty in that too. There's beauty and perfection. I mean, that's life. Humanity is imperfect. You know, there's no such thing as perfect, you know, given...

Michel:
[30:43] Yeah, and I think it matches very well with Berlin in that fact.

Jae:
[30:47] It does. It definitely does. Once again, another reason why I love the city, I don't feel like I have to be something. I feel like I'm able to kind of just, you know, express myself, make mistakes, but also embrace those mistakes, embrace those imperfections. I think perfectionism is something that I struggle with, which is a big reason why I never finish anything.

Michel:
[31:10] Yeah, but it's also the expectations.

Jae:
[31:13] Yes, yeah. There's always this high expectations for everything that you do. And Berlin, I'm still, I still have these high expectations for myself, but Berlin is definitely, I think, allowing me to relax on that. I mean, looking at this, it's very inspiring because I'm just seeing you do something that I've actually wanted to do for a long time, but I've been very hesitant to do it because I make all these thousands of excuses that I have to like plan it particularly ...

Michel:
[31:37] Just go do it! Just go do it!

Jae:
[31:39] Just go fucking do it!

Michel:
[31:41] A friend of mine said years ago to me, "An idea is nothing."

Jae:
[31:48] Yeah.

Michel:
[31:49] And it has always stuck in the back of my head. So thanks, Jeroen, for that, maybe 20 years ago! Because coming from the philosophy of, you can have an idea but if you don't follow up on it, it's gone, it's up in the air. Just go and do it and make it happen! And it's not that difficult. You can always find excuses, but it's just, you know, take your camera, go outside.

Jae:
[32:22] That is so true. Do you have a favorite lyric of yours that you put in this book?

Michel:
[32:29] Well the lyrics, that's another story, and maybe another layer within that photo book. I was at the time also interested in artificial intelligence, and there were like AI word processors. And now with ChatGPT ...

Jae:
[32:47] I'm really happy ChatGPT opened. My questions came from that! Yeah, I wanted to test it out today, so I decided to get some questions.

Michel:
[32:55] Seriously? Okay. Yeah. It's amazing technology, but what I don't like about it now is what we talked about: perfection. It's too perfect now. Yeah. The version that I've used for the photo book and for the lyrics in the photo book, it was really ramshackle, don't know what you're going to get if you put something into it. It could give you a whole different text. So what I did is that I'm also a fan of Nick Cave, and Nick Cave has lived in Berlin and has made, I think, two albums while living here. So I looked at the lyrics he wrote for those two albums that he made in Berlin, and I took little snippets of it, maybe like three or four words, a sentence, and I put it into the AI chat and just see what it got me. And sometimes it was like totally useless, and you can hit the regenerate button and it would ... totally different text.

Jae:
[33:57] There's always going to be at least one good thing.

Michel:
[34:01] Yeah, and it came a bit like sampling, which is also a part of my music, that I use samples that I made myself, or that I find, is that I was sampling words. I was taking a couple of sentences, maybe a couple of words from what the AI gave me, and made a new text with it.

Jae:
[34:21] Yeah. Ah, this is amazing. I love every single bit of that.

Michel's Music

[34:26] If you could describe your music in a few words, how would you describe it?

Michel:
[34:35] People that come to my live shows always say it's very cinematic. It's very soundtrack-y. And they also always say, Oh, you should make a soundtrack. Yeah, I want to make a soundtrack, but I'm not in that world, you know, it's a tough place to get into. And I'm a pretty introverted guy and a pretty shy guy, so I'm not a big networker or anything like that. So very cinematic, experimental in the sense that I can use anything to make sounds. Like I said, sometimes I work with samples, or an element in a track can be a sample, but I also use field recordings that I make, but I also have a contact microphone that I put on wind-up toys and just make textures with that. Or I have an electric guitar, and I don't play a single note on an electric guitar, but I use it to make sounds and soundscapes.

Jae:
[35:40] And yeah. Nice.

Finding a Community

[35:42] Have you found a community here in Berlin that you go to just to get support for your music or for your art or whatnot? Or are you completely solo?

Michel:
[35:54] Like I said, I'm pretty introverted. I tried ... last time I was here, I went to a concert through a website - what's it called? I think echtzeitmusik.de - and they are a platform that ... I don't think they organized the concerts, but they just put them together in a newsletter or on a website. It's all about really experimental improvised music, and I went up to one of the guys that played, and had a talk with him and it was really nice, but I find it very difficult to really get rooted into groups or into the Berlin scene when I'm just here maybe two, three, four times a year. I think that's much more different for you living here, it's much easier to... and maybe you're more... I think I've heard you talk about it in an episode once, that you're much more extroverted.

Jae:
[37:03] Yeah, I am a very outgoing person. Yeah, I've heard that a lot from a lot of people that Berlin, while we say all these great things about Berlin, Berlin can be sometimes hard to get into certain groups or certain, you know, atmospheres just because, I wouldn't say Berlin is quite cliquey, but, you know, once people find their home, it kind of becomes this like closed space or whatnot. So it's very kind of difficult, I think, sometimes to break into those sort of things. There's still a whole bunch of communities that I would like to get into, that I still haven't even tried to, one being more of the music art scene. I'm not ... haven't gone too much into the music art scene, but that's definitely something I really want to do here. There's people here who do that. It's hard, I think, also just to be consistent with it as well. Especially as you say if you're coming here infrequently, to build those connections, build those relationships, sometimes takes time and takes this constant communication. Yeah. But, hey, you have two friends whenever you come back here!

Michel:
[38:10] Ah, cool, that's nice to know! That's very nice to know. Thank you.

Jae:
[38:14] So, do you have any tips for people who either want to move to Berlin for music, photography, or arts, or who kind of want to do what you're doing, of just coming here for that creative space? Do you have any tips or advice for how they can best use their time here in Berlin?

Michel:
[38:34] Well, from just my point of view is maybe what I said to you, just go and do it, you know. That expectations or your own threshold hold you back. Just step by step, go and do it. And what I enjoy most is just, I always book an apartment through Airbnb because it gives me the feeling even more of just being here instead of visiting and being a tourist, just living here, and just soaking up. It's not very hard to be inspired in Berlin. It's really easy. You just have to step out, maybe even in your apartment you can be inspired, but even more, if you go outside and just walk around, and yeah, it's lovely.

Jae:
[39:26] Yes. Berlin is a great place. I said I've had my ups and downs to Berlin, but I am still here and I really don't want to live anywhere else. I think Berlin has a lot more to offer. And even the negative experiences that you experience here in Berlin, I think, contribute to your whole entire life here. Yeah.

The Beauty of Berlin's Roughness

Michel:
[39:52] Without ChatGPT!

Jae:
[39:54] [Laughs] How have I changed? I think when I first came here, I mean, obviously there was a lot of optimism there, a little bit of naïvety coming into it, and more fear, I would even say. I think a lot of the optimism was just to counter my fear. But I feel like now I've kind of reached a point of "groundedness" in the sense that not as many things shake me up as they used to. I think I was very triggered by the smallest things, even the smallest inconveniences. Obviously coming from America, things are completely different here. And I was like, I felt that I was doing something wrong. And I felt that I was either making mistakes or that the city was just against me. I think I kind of have changed that narrative now to where I don't think the city's against me, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong, but I'm just accepting that some things are just a part of life. And...

Michel:
[41:02] But do you have examples of...

Jae:
[41:05] Yeah, I mean, like when I first got here, I had encounters with racism, I had encounters with trying to find a place to live, my housing situation was kind of hectic. I mean, I still have some bills I have to pay from Berlin. I've gotten two train tickets, two train fees already. And there's just been so many obstacles and it amounted to a lot of stress. Like I thought ... 'cause in one of my first episodes I said, "Oh yeah, I got this done, I got that done, I got that done, I got that done," all to see it all kind of crumble in my eyes, I'm like: Oh my gosh, I'm fucking up. But the more I lived here, the more ... and then I realized is that everyone kind of goes through these struggles. I'm not necessarily alone. And I'm kind of, I'm still in the process, but I'm learning to kind of embrace these hiccups and embrace these, the roughness of Berlin. I mean, we just talked about how beautiful the roughness is in Berlin. And I think it's easier to say that than it is to experience it.

Michel:
[42:05] Are you referring to the people working at the Rewe?

Jae:
[42:08] Yes, that too! Like the customer service here trips me up, and I still get nervous every time I talk to someone I feel like they're going to yell at me.

Michel:
[42:17] Yeah. But today I was at the Rewe and I was thinking about, I think you mentioned it in a podcast episode somewhere, and it's so ... stands out so much that the people, they're lovely people and they have a job and they do their job, but it's like they learn to be professionally cranky!

Jae:
[42:40] Yes!

Michel:
[42:42] And I think that, especially for you as an American, where what I know of America - I've never been, but what I know of America - is that it's very overly service-driven and...

Jae:
[42:53] Very, very. Like when I went back a month and a half ago, the people at the front were apologizing to me, "Oh, like, sorry if it took so long." I'm like, "It's okay. That's fine." They were like, when I left, they said, "Bye." I'm like, "Bye." I was like: Oh my gosh, I'm not used to this type of kindness. But I think the biggest thing, I guess, with my change here is I'm not taking everything personal. I was taking everything so personal, so personal. So like: Oh my gosh, they're cranky to me, I'm doing something wrong. But as we just mentioned, it's kind of like that's just how they are, how people are here, how things are here. And that's such a relief. Like, I feel like I've matured in that way. And yeah, but the only way I get to that point is by experiencing these tough things, you know? I am a very privileged person, I'll just admit that. I grew up as an only child, my family was pretty well off. I had struggles, but for the most part everything was pretty much given to me. Yeah, comfortable. I had to work for things, but comfortable is a great word. In Berlin, it was so uncomfortable. So uncomfortable. It was great in so many ways, but I felt so weird. And I took all of that personal. Now I'm like, okay, it's fine. Things aren't personal. That's just how it is.

Michel:
[44:20] But then, coming from that world, I find it very brave of you to just go to a city that you don't know, where you've never lived, that you maybe visited before, yeah, and just: "Okay, I'm going to live here.

Jae:
[44:34] Yeah, it is courageous in a way. I also just always found it very just adventurous and entertaining. And always, I always tell myself: Yhy not? You know, I'm like, we only get so many days on this planet. And I get bored very quickly. And I'm always ... like as much as I complain about challenges, I always love challenges. Like I love experiencing something new. My friend, she says that there's one word to describe me, it was an explorer. And I love exploring, you know? And Berlin has just so much to explore and stuff.

Michel:
[45:11] So take that camera with you when you go exploring!

Jae:
[45:13] Yeah, I know. I need to pick it up more. That's why I got me a new phone too, because these new iPhones are really great at photography as well. But yeah, I think while Berlin can be very challenging, it makes for a great story, you know, it's good for the plot! And yeah, Berlin is cool enough.

Michel:
[45:34] It's not just small-town USA.

Jae:
[45:36] No, no. And you meet a lot of cool different people here too. I think that's one of the cool things. It's like... My perspective ... Another way I think that I have changed, is my perspective of just everything. I mean, wearing a skirt, for example. Like I now shop in more in the women's section of things, you know. I am experimenting more with just different styles of myself and allowing myself to just do that. Even though it feels uncomfortable, I'm like: Why not? Why not do that? You're in a place where no one really cares. So it's allowed me to really just shift of like: Oh, people live this way normally. Why not? Why can't I adopt that perspective as well?

Michel:
[46:17] Yeah. And it's something I get from Berlin, but it's also something I get from my youngest who is 11, almost 12 - shout out to Bo - and Bo has had a period of ... she was born a girl, "Maybe I feel more like a boy." And she's educating me on all things gender, and I'm already pretty progressive in that field. And a couple of weeks ago, she came down from her bedroom and said, "Dad, I know what I am." And she was looking on Google and she said, "I'm like, I'm gender fluid." Yeah. And now she's very comfortable with the she/her pronouns, I use them also, but every morning she just, you know, takes her inner thermometer and feels: Oh, do I feel more like a boy today? Do I feel more like a girl today? Do I feel somewhere in between? and chooses her outfit based on that feeling.

Jae:
[47:25] That's beautiful.

Michel:
[47:27] So, so pure and so ... I hope that she can maintain that.

Jae:
[47:31] Yeah. That's also a thing I think about with the ... I mean, I'm young, but even the younger people, like at 12 or 14 they're already discovering themselves and feeling free enough to be able to discover themselves.

Michel:
[47:49] Maybe my wish would be that it would go even further where it would be completely label-less. It doesn't matter, you know. And it's ... now because we still live in a... and through her, I'm also confronted with things you maybe don't think about: Should I go to the men's bathroom or the women's bathroom? Why is a clothing shop for kids divided in boys' clothes and girls' clothes? Why not sportive clothes, more fancy clothes?

Jae:
[48:24] Exactly.

Michel:
[48:25] Or colors or whatever.

Jae:
[48:28] Yes, definitely, it makes you take a double take of your own life and the things that you thought were so normal or whatnot. You start questioning everything. Which I think is great. You know, I question everything. I always love to ask why. Why do we do this? Why do we do that? Why do we do that? And it's cool, I think, that a lot of these generations now are being able to question it too, because it also helps us do the same exact thing too. Which just makes, I don't know, everything, honestly, easier, in my opinion. Yeah, and yeah.

Michel:
[49:08] And bringing it back to Berlin, just, you know, seeing all those different types of people here and just being themselves and being left alone to be themselves, that's such a good feeling.

Jae:
[49:21] Yes, and they do it so well, too. I'm like, sometimes I'm like: Wow! I got to do that, too! And I always say Berlin rewards you the more yourself you are. And I completely try to live that way too, of like as long as I am fully myself, whether I know myself or not, as long as I am confident in that, I'll be okay.

Michel:
[49:43] Yeah. Yeah.