Please note: This episode discusses mental health, but it's not a substitute for professional advice. If you're in crisis, reach out to a healthcare provider immediately or contact a crisis hotline in your country.
Show Notes
Transcript
Manuel:
[0:09] Maybe You Should Talk to Someone.
Jae:
[0:11] Maybe I should. Maybe I should. I've been thinking about that lately.
Manuel:
[0:15] That's the title of a book that I'm reading ...
Jae:
[0:17] And what's it about?
Manuel:
[0:19] ... that I can highly recommend. I only just started, but already I'm like, do you know when you like start a new book and you can tell early on, this is one of the good ones? It's about ... as far as I can tell, it's about a therapist who kind of describes some of her own sessions with her patients. Obviously it's like all anonymized and stuff. But then she also goes through a breakup and goes and seeks therapy herself, and then she writes about that. And it's good. It's sad and funny and interesting and all of the above.
Jae:
[0:59] It's always very interesting, I think, to get the therapist's point of view because a lot of times when you go to therapy, you only kind of receive what you're doing, but then also to, I guess, get the therapist's, of like we all kind of go through these same struggles, and also seeing how a therapist navigates it can also help, I would say, us navigate our own journeys and stuff like that. I'm adding that book to my list. Thank you for the recommendation.
[1:23] I've only ever gone to therapy once in my life, but it was a really, really good experience. I got really lucky, because I think it's very common you have to go to like several different people until you find one that's good. And I like got lucky on the first try. And I really would love to do therapy again. I don't have like a super pressing need, I don't have a big thing ... at least I don't think I have a big thing that I feel like I need to talk through, but I feel like therapy is the kind of thing that even if you don't have that one pressing issue, it can only help and be beneficial to do therapy.
Jae:
[2:04] I agree. Therapy is something that I've definitely gone through a lot. I'm currently about to be on my sixth therapist. My sixth therapist!
Manuel:
[2:14] Lucky number six!
Jae:
[2:15] Lucky number six! And a lot of times, even when I'm talking to people who don't necessarily have like issues or whatnot, therapy has been a nice thing because it's kind of like what the book title is. Sometimes it's just nice to talk to somebody, you know.
Manuel:
[2:31] And especially someone who's on the outside, who's not a friend, and who's also trained to withhold the kind of: You should do this, you should do that, like jumping to solutions.
Jae:
[2:46] Exactly.
Manuel:
[2:47] Like that's really valuable.
Jae:
[2:50] Exactly. It's really nice the way that you had like a good therapist. Most of my therapists that I've had are pretty okay, but then I'm always scarred from this one therapist that I had, it was my third therapist. I was living in Chicago, it was the summer of 2018, I know specifically, she was on her phone while we were doing our therapy sessions.
Manuel:
[3:07] What?!
Jae:
[3:08] Yes!
Manuel:
[5:55] Yeah, so before we go into the details, I'm looking at our friends from allaboutberlin.com, a nice website, and they have a nice intro that explains the difference between psychiatrist, psychotherapist, and counselor. Do you know the difference between all of those?
Jae:
[6:16] Well, without reading this, a psychiatrist typically is focused more on the medical or like the medication side, like the pharmaceutical side of mental health, so this is a person that I go to that prescribes the amount of medications. However, when it comes to like therapy and stuff like that, they can give you therapy, some of them offer it, but that's not their primary thing. And then you have psychotherapists and counselors, which in my mind are somewhat like, I mean, I hope I don't offend them, but are somewhat like in like a similar field, of these are the people that you kind of like, at least what I would assume, is that you kind of like talk to and they kind of do like that Talk Therapy or different types of therapy.
Manuel:
[6:59] Yeah, yeah. You got to be careful though, because I went to a therapy session with someone else, and I mentioned to the therapist that I would like to do therapy again as well and that I did it once before, as I told you, but that I had also done some coaching with a life coach which I've also done. And she got a little bit ... not offended, but she made it very clear that a life coach which is ... anybody can call themselves a life coach. Like I could say: Hey, I'm a life coach and I'm charging a hundred euros a session now and you can talk to me, and a therapist who's gone through years, sometimes decades, of training and is working with like a method that is founded in science, those are very different things. But yeah, so therapists, as you said, focus more on the therapy, whereas psychiatrists are usually working with, and allowed to, prescribe medication.
Jae:
[8:08] It's interesting, this idea. So counselor, I would not call ... group a counselor with a coach, if I'm in America.
Manuel:
[8:15] That's even a different thing altogether.
Jae:
[8:18] Yeah, a counselor would technically be more like, not necessarily a therapist, but it would be someone who actually is qualified. Like we have "school counselors" or whatnot, but these are people that kind of help you navigate systems and have things. And then like so what ... how All About Berlin describes counselors, I would actually cross out counselors and say coaches.
Manuel:
[8:38] Yeah. Yeah, cause it says they have no specific qualifications, so the difference is a psychotherapist has qualifications. They went to school for this.
Jae:
[8:49] Yes. And that's also covered with your insurance as well.
[8:53] Right. So let's talk about insurance. So obviously someone who does this needs to be paid, and obviously it costs a lot of money. According to this website, it costs around €100 per hour, which seems about right. Sure it could be even more depending on the person. Group therapy can be cheaper, of course. And then if you have public health insurance ... so like we mentioned TK, Techniker ... Did we do an episode about insurance? I'm pretty sure we did.
Jae:
[9:23] I think you did one.
Manuel:
[9:24] I did one about all the types of insurances. Did we talk about health insurance on that? I'm not sure. But basically, if you just have some like expat insurance that covers just the basics of if you get into an accident, it's not going to be covered. But if you have the regular public health insurance as an employed person in Germany, then it's covered as long as the therapy ... the therapist in like the first three sessions, decides that it is necessary.
Jae:
[9:57] Yeah.
Manuel:
[9:58] I don't have the professional terms, but a therapist needs to say: Yes, this person needs therapy, and then it's covered. If they're like ... if they look at me and they're like: What you need is a coach, you don't need a therapist, then it might not be covered.
Jae:
[10:11] Yeah. My third person I went to was like: You need to go therapy four times a week. I was like: Okay, confirmed. And then something I can add is like when I went to this therapist, he kind of was laying down how the function works, the bureaucratic function, and he was saying that typically, I mean, since you have insurance or if you have like the public insurance you get like ... they focus more like 8 to 12 sessions, and then you can extend that to a hundred, if need be. So you can have a therapist for like years or whatnot depending on how they see that like evaluation or whatnot. So typically I think the average is 8 to 12, and then once those 8 to 12 ... then discussion of exceeding that can happen as well.
Manuel:
[11:01] Right. I think it goes in like phases, or like basically when you first start looking for a therapist, which we'll talk about then you do like one, two or three sessions during which they determine if you "need therapy" and it should be covered, and then they will say: Okay, you need "ten sessions" but then during session number 8 or 9 or 10, they might say: And we're going to extend it to another 10 or 20. And you could keep going like that. But they're not just going to say: Yes, now you're going to do it every day for the rest of your life.
Jae:
[11:40] Exactly. Yeah, yes. So it's nice to have, but hard to get.
Manuel:
[11:47] Yes. So how do you find a therapist? And then, I mean, for you specifically, and many of our listeners, how do you find someone who speaks your language?
Jae:
[11:57] English. And that was, that was so hard to do. And thankfully I had a friend who was like helping me call, because it's like, you want to call people, of course, you know, to see if you can get an appointment. And then my struggle was that the voicemail was in the German, so I was like: I don't know what to press.
Manuel:
[12:15] And this is something that I learned in the book that I'm reading: most therapies, you'll never catch on the phone. They'll always have their voicemail, even if they're there, because they only have like ten-minute breaks in between sessions, and they don't want to pick up the phone for you to have a life crisis, and then for them to say: Sorry, gotta go! So they'd rather, you know ...
Jae:
[12:37] It's understandable.
Manuel:
[12:38] Totally.
Jae:
[12:39] It's just like exhausting.
Manuel:
[12:48] Oh! You tell me. I don't know.
Jae:
[12:51] I would say ... so I've been like avoiding, I would say, the journey of getting a therapist for like a minute, because, I mean, most people are probably like me of this: Oh, I can just handle it myself or whatnot. But I think what happened for me was ... so if my listeners don't know, I'm bipolar. And sometimes I get into these, what I call, episodes, these depression episodes. And these depression episodes kind of come every so often or whatnot, and my most recent episode, which I'm kind of in right now, was very, very - what's the word I'm looking for? - very like deeper and different than my other episodes, so it was a lot more difficult to manage. And I think when you start noticing that these things start affecting your personal life, they start affecting the way that you interact, your productivity or whatnot, then those are good signs to get a therapist. If you need it.
[13:51] There's other signs too of just like if you're not feeling well, or if you just feel that you need someone to talk to, getting a therapist is also a really good option to do. Of course, you always can have your friends or your family, but I think, as we mentioned before, having a therapist allows for unbiased, educated view of what you're going through, and this can also provide you methods and practices that can lead you to the right thing. Because it's also ... A disclaimer, we are not doctors, we are not professionals, we are just two people, so you're just talking about the journey of finding a therapist, but definitely I think finding a therapist is really beneficial, especially if you experience anxiety or depression or other things as well.
Manuel:
[14:36] Totally. And I would stress that if you're not sure, you should give it a try, and then leave it to the professional to make a determination if you should keep going or not. Because I was, or still am a little bit, in this conflict where I don't feel like I need it, and especially given the situation in Berlin with so few spots available, I feel very conflicted about seeking out therapy because I feel like: Am I taking a spot from someone who needs it much more urgently? But this therapist that I asked about this, the one that I offended by comparing her profession to a life coach, said, "Well, that's not really up ... like you could do a session with someone and then they can decide, and that's their job to decide whether you "qualify" and you don't have to worry about it. Like there's no ... And it's not like ... Obviously it's with all kinds of these ethical questions or things like that, just because someone else is struggling even more than you, that doesn't disqualify or invalidate your own struggle. So it's okay to seek help or to talk to someone even if other people also need help.
Jae:
[15:58] Yeah, because I also say this, you never know what's going to happen in the future. You can say you're fine right now, but who knows what might happen tomorrow or whatnot. So yes, everyone, get therapy!
Manuel:
[16:09] And the good thing is that in Germany it's not a taboo, really. I mean, maybe in some circles, but in Berlin, it's almost the reverse. You don't have a therapist? How dare you? So it's very much socially accepted. You can talk about it openly. And ... yes.
Jae:
[16:28] Yes.
Manuel:
[16:54] It's - I have to read it as well - it's the Kassenärztliche Vereinigung Berlin, so it's basically a unity of the doctors that work for the public insurances or work with public insurances. This might be slightly wrong, but basically they provide a list of doctors and therapists in Berlin that work with public insurance, because you could also be a therapist, and those therapists also exist, that only accept private patients that pay out of pocket or through private health insurance, and so you're wasting your time if you're calling those. And so this is a good list to get an an overview of the ones that you could even use.
Jae:
[17:40] Exactly. And also with this list here, I was able to filter out different things like: Do you speak English? What ethnicity? What particular focus that you need? and a few more types of beneficial things. And this is actually what we kind of used to kind of find my therapist. I just kind of filtered out, made it closer to my location of where I lived, and then it was just: Call, call, call, call, call, call, call!
Manuel:
[18:05] And that's what, so like, that's the black spot - what's the word? - like that's the problem in the system. How can you make it so that someone who's really struggling and who might be in a really tough phase and who might be new here, has to then individually call dozens of doctors, for them to not reach them because nobody answers the phone, or maybe they'll have like: Okay, during this one hour per week, I'll answer my phone. And if you're lucky, you'll get through, but usually you won't. And so then you just leave these awkward messages, hoping they'll call you back, and then maybe someone calls you back, and like that's the system. Just terrible. It's not a good system.
Jae:
[18:50] Yeah, it is not. And this is why I encourage, if you feel good right now, try the therapy. Because when you don't feel good and you're trying to find a therapist, it does not help at all!
Manuel:
[19:00] Right, right.
Jae:
[19:01] And like I really would love, like, the new system ... Like, my other system was just going to be, which, I mean, honestly, you can do this too, but I was going to collect everybody's email and then put them on, like, a CC and just send it all out, which you can do. But then my other friend was like: Okay, well, it's not personal. But then sometimes if you just like need ... you just gotta throw everything out the wall and see what sticks, that also could be like a alternative way of trying to reach out to multiple people at once.
Manuel:
[19:29] Honestly, you might do both. You might send that email and then also pick up the phone and try and call.
Jae:
[19:33] Which is what I did. The emails, they were like: Sorry, no, I don't have availability or whatnot. But the phone calls actually like worked in the sense that most times, of course, you'll get voicemail, but then there will be a nurse. That nurse would then recommend me to something else, and then some of the people would then call me back. And basically the conversations when I call them back were always the same of: Hey, I don't really have any availability right now, but maybe I could put you on the wait list, or: Hey, I could do the consultation call for you. And that was at least beneficial because that was a step in the right direction. Another thing that is also on this website is the 116117.
Manuel:
[20:15] Yes, which many people, even Germans, don't know about.
Jae:
[20:22] Yeah, that was actually something new that one of my friends told me about. So you can actually call this number and they can provide you help, but you can also go to the 116117.de website, and this ...
Manuel:
[20:37] Which, the URL, I just love the URL! It's 116117.de. It's literally the number. So to quickly explain what this is, it's basically a number and it's weird to me that ... Like they need better marketing. Why don't more people know about this? Because one of the problems that they're solving, which I know is a huge problem because my cousin is a medic, like, what do you call people that drive around in ambulances to rescue people?
Jae:
[21:10] I know there's a term, but I would use "medic" for now.
Manuel:
[21:13] Yeah. So one of the huge problems in Germany is that people call the ambulance for minor things. And I mean, sometimes it might be excused because they didn't know any better or they were panicking.
Jae:
[21:30] They call it EMT [Emergency Medical Technician].
Jae:
[25:34] Yeah, so if you have public insurance, you're able to use this particular platform, I think that's another thing. But essentially, yeah, you put in what you're looking for. And for me, I put in like I was looking for a psychotherapist adult consultation. Then you put in your email address, and then you check to make sure you have public health insurance. And then once you confirm everything, then it offers you a list of of therapists around you that have available appointments, so you can automatically just book your appointment there. You then ... They then do ask you to call them just to confirm the appointment, but this is also just a good method of finding appointments. The only thing, like I mentioned before, it didn't directly say English, on like who speaks English or not, so that was just like rolling the dice, but this is still, I would say, a really good option if you do need someone to ... which I don't know why no one pushes this. One of my friends told me about this and I was happy to do this, but this is like a really good alternative way as well if you don't wanna call a whole bunch of people all at once.
Manuel:
[26:37] That is a great tip. Yeah, I just started doing it and it's super easy. The website is very clearly designed to be as simple as possible, and especially if you're able to do therapy in German or English, I would just give it a shot. If you need to find someone that speaks another language natively or near natively, I would recommend this website: psych-info.de. And I recommended that in the mental health episode that we did, because they actually do have a language filter where you can select other languages. It might not be super thorough, as you mentioned, like there's no like one central database that's up to date, but this one, if you're looking for a therapist in French or Spanish or whatever it may be, I would also try this website. But yeah, the 116117, man, it's a good website number to call. 24-7 you can call. It's private and free and they can help you find a doctor. And it's just not meant for emergencies - call 112 for that - and they can help you with dentists. There's a separate like website for dentists.
Manuel:
[28:59] Okay, before we go there, about the like why would you go to someone else? For someone who's never been to therapy, can you like walk us through very ... in concrete terms, how does that go? Like you ring the bell and then what happens? What does the room look like? What do they say? Like how does it go?
Jae:
[29:19] Yeah, so typically, in all of my in-person ones, you ring the bell, you come in, you're very nervous!
Manuel:
[29:26] Why are you nervous? You've done it six times!
Jae:
[29:29] Because ... I know! Because it's just like, you just don't know like how it's going to be, or how the person is. And yeah, you just get like ... I'm very quiet when I enter into these spaces, which is very opposite ...
Manuel:
[29:40] Hard to believe!
Jae:
[29:41] I know, it is very opposite of who I am! And I get like very, like, just like this. But most times, if it's a good therapist, they are relaxing, they are welcoming. So you essentially go in. Most therapists always ask me to take off my shoes whenever I get in.
Manuel:
[29:55] Is that only Germany or is that everywhere?
Jae:
[29:57] That was just Germany for me. And when I was back in the States, never really had to take off the shoes thing. But essentially you sit in a chair and ...
Manuel:
[30:05] A chair or a couch?
Jae:
[30:07] All the ones that I've been to have been like a chair, but I'm sure that's ... like they always all have the couch too, I guess, if you want to like lay down, you know, like in all the movies ...
Manuel:
[30:16] They have the right Freudian therapy. You lay down. Yeah, I don't think that's a thing anymore
Jae:
[30:22] Yeah, no, I don't see that, but everyone does have a couch. But yes, but you essentially like sit down, and then they sit ... most therapists here weirdly sit really far apart, so I guess maybe to give that space of the comfortability, but ...
Manuel:
[30:40] And the distance, right? It's really important to have ... like you're not supposed to do therapy with anyone that you know personally, even remotely, like there is this ... And also everything I'm telling you, mostly I know from this book that I'm reading, like they won't have any family photos or anything in there because they don't really want their personal life to be a thing at all. Like they're just your therapist, they're nothing else, like there's no, they're not going to tell you about their personal lives.
Jae:
[31:08] Exactly. And it definitely seems like that, like most of the places I've been to were quite neutral. And I think this is to allow you to kind of make the space your own and not to be like ... have this weird impression. So most times you just sit down, and they always just ask me, "So, why are you here?"
Manuel:
[31:29] That's the opener. That's the icebreaker.
Jae:
[31:30] That's the opener, and I always say, "Huh, well, where do I begin?" And this is a part that I am still conflicted on, like how you navigate this. And a lot of times you don't know where to begin. So typically for me, I always begin with my diagnosis, what I'm diagnosed with, what I'm feeling in the exact moment, and then we kind of go into like okay, like well then, like just your story of like everything. And it becomes more of a conversation at that point, you know. Like I think the more you are in this appointment, the more relaxed you get. And there's really nothing you have to do. All you have to do is show up and sit down and allow yourself to open up just a little bit. And most times, like I said, if it's a good therapist, they'll know how to navigate that conversation for you. So there's like ... Sometimes I've always felt pressure that I have to be the one to navigate the conversation, and then like there'll be signs, I'm like: Okay, I need to say something. But really, you're not there to be in control. You're there to just relax. And like, it's like you're going to the doctor, let them do the work.
Manuel:
[32:40] I don't know, they're earning like €100 an hour. Let them do the work!
Jae:
[32:44] Yes, yes.
Manuel:
[32:45] Yeah, something that the one therapist that I did go to was very good at, was establishing kind of the ground rules, which included him assuring me that whatever I say in that room stays in that room forever and he will never share without my consent. And I forgot what else, but there were like a few things where I just felt like it was very professional, and it kind of allowed me to really open up to where I felt like I didn't have to censor myself in any way, shape, or form.
Jae:
[33:22] Yes, and those are great therapists too, because a lot of times you can feel very shamed or judged or feeling guilty or whatnot for your feelings or maybe what your actions or whatnot, but if it's a good therapist, they will set those ground rules of like: This is a safe space where you can share whatever you are, and I'm not here to judge you, I'm just here to listen. And that definitely helps with, I think, opening up. But also, I mean, it's understandable that it takes time too, especially if you have to do these consultations every single time, you know, it gets quite exhausting. But after the second person, I just made a piece of paper.
Manuel:
[34:04] Read this! Here's my overview!
Jae:
[34:06] Yes. And actually, they didn't like that. Like, both of the therapists I gave it to, they were like, "No, I don't want that."
Manuel:
[34:11] Because I don't think it's about the information. I don't think ... Or maybe partly, but it's not that they just want to get all the info so they can present you with a solution. They want you to open up.
Jae:
[34:21] Yes, exactly. And that was very interesting because like I had my paper, I had my diagnosis, I had what I was taking, my medication, I had like how I was feeling, and they were like, "I don't want that. I just want you to talk to us." And I guess I get that, because then it becomes a very unbiased view, you know, they don't have anything that they're going to judge you on first, they just want to hear your story And this was like a really, I think, good way to open up. And then I always notice that like about by 20 minutes, 30 minutes in there, I'm relaxed, I can like ... I feel more expressive and like I feel that: Okay, this is like a really good like, moment for me to do. And like I said, it makes it much easier if they do speak English because you don't feel you have to like, really like, filter or watch your words and stuff like that.
Manuel:
[35:06] Yeah.
Jae:
[35:31] And that was exactly ... The first three people said that. It was not ... Like the third therapist I actually really did like, but that was her exact words were, "I cannot take you on right now.
Manuel:
[35:43] And there's some ... I don't know the details, but there's like some law that every practicing therapist who's working for the insurance companies, or with insurance companies, has to offer these kind of consultation hours, even if they're fully booked, even if the result is always going to be, "I can't take anyone on," they still have to offer these consultations, which is why you can get an appointment and then be turned down.
Jae:
[36:07] Yes, which is like ... And they always tell me before that like, "This is only a consultation. I don't have room for you," but like I said, those consultation hours are very important. And then there's also this thing - and don't quote me on this people, please - but I heard that like if you get three of these papers, then you can reach out to your insurance company and they like have to get you an appointment or whatnot.
Manuel:
[36:35] Yes. So I know very little about this as well, but apparently if you can prove that you need therapy but you can't find a spot, and this might include having three of these papers, then at some point you might be able to go to a therapist that doesn't work with the insurance companies, and pay out of pocket, and the insurance company is then supposed to reimburse you. But, I know from a friend that this is a huge struggle, and for some reason, the insurance company will fight tooth and nail to avoid this. And so yes, theoretically, this is an option. And I think if you've gone through like three or five or seven of these consultation sessions and no one can take you on, I would try to go there, but prepare yourself for a bit of a discussion. If not, possibly whatever, you might have to take legal steps to kind of force that to happen, but apparently it is a solution and I think especially in Berlin where it's so difficult to find a spot, this might be something to look into.
Jae:
[37:52] Yeah, interesting. I did not know that. They don't make it easy!
Manuel:
[37:58] No. So how did you end up finding a permanent therapist?
Jae:
[38:02] This was just a person that like as I was just like cold calling people I had left a voicemail, and then he had called me back and said that he doesn't have any appointments but he can put me on his waitlist. And I always accept. Whatever a therapist offers. I just accept. I'm like, "Yes, put me on your waitlist. Yes, give me a consultation hour. Yes, yes, yes." 'Cause you just never know, right? So I'm, "Okay, yes, Put me on your wait list," and I was thinking this person would like not ever call me back, and then he sent me a text message saying, "Hey, I have this appointment, someone dropped out, I have this appointment. Can you come at this time?"
Manuel:
[38:34] In ten minutes!
Jae:
[38:35] Yeah, and like I think he messaged me on a Friday and I was ... like, it was going to be on a Monday. I'm like, "Okay, yes, I'll take that." And then I was like, okay, well ... And when you have like, there'll be appointments, you kind of just have to just take it. Like I had to like miss one of our meetings because I'm like: Okay, this is like the only appointment that I can get. So then he texted me and said, "Okay, great, I can see you at this time." And I went there, and then at the end of the session he was ... And I was only thinking it was only going to be a consultation. I didn't think he was actually going to be able to like offer me the actual continuous spots, but then he was like okay, it was, "Are you available to do this? Do you want to do this?" Consistently, I'm like, "Hella fucking yes, I wanna do this consistently."
Manuel:
[39:16] That's what you said?
Jae:
[39:17] Yes!
Manuel:
[39:18] Hella fucking yes!
Jae:
[39:19] Hella fucking yes! Sign me up now! So then, yeah, that was just how it happened. And it was kind of like unexpected, like I didn't expect that to happen, but I'm really happy that now I have somebody that I can consistently go to now. And I guess this actively took me about ... like I would say average like one month of actively doing this.
Manuel:
[39:45] So not as difficult as finding an apartment, but more difficult than it should be.
Jae:
[39:51] More difficult than it should be, especially if you're in a drastic situation.
Manuel:
[39:57] Right. And I have one last recommendation about that, and it's Berlin-specific - I hope other cities have similar things - which is the Berliner Krisendienst. Have you heard of this?
[40:13] So it's a ... I don't even know, it is a service provided by ... oh, I think ... so it's different kind of associations, but also Caritas, which is religious, which is like Catholic or whatever, but you wouldn't know this, like I wouldn't know this if I hadn't just looked into this. Basically they say on their website: People have crises, Berlin offers a crisis service, multilingual assistance and cooperation with interpreters and linguists. Basically they have a physical place in quite a few different areas of Berlin. They have one in Pankow, one in Spandau, one in Reineckendorf, one in Mitte, and if you have a crisis, an acute crisis, you can call them around the clock, I think, and you can go there in person between 4 pm and midnight, and someone will be there, and they might not be a therapist, but they will be trained in some capacity and they'll be there to catch you.
[41:30] You can more or less immediately talk to someone, and they can also then kind of, if it's really serious, refer you to a hospital. If you are not comfortable going home after that, you can go to a hospital. And if you look at their Google reviews, for the Mitte one at least, they're really bad. A lot of people are writing that they had like bad experiences there and people were rude. I've been there a few times with people and it was always great. Like maybe people weren't ... I don't know what people expect or maybe, you know, it might really depend on the kind of person who's working that day, but in our case, the people that I encountered there were amazing. And just having that. It's completely free, it's not tied to insurance or anything, it's just like for everybody, I think. And yeah, I think that's also another thing that should be more widely known: that these places exist and you can just go.
Jae:
[42:36] Yeah, that is. I never even heard of that. It's so interesting how like there are really good services and they're not like hidden, but they're not like exposed either.
Manuel:
[42:46] Because they're not-for-profit. And who runs ads other than for-profit companies, right?
Jae:
[42:53] That's very true, yeah. So it does have in this kind of word of mouth type of thing, of like: Hey, just try this. And I'm like: Wait, this is really just in my face. Like how did I not notice that this was an option?
Manuel:
[43:04] But Jae, that's what we're for.
Jae:
[43:06] That is what we are for, you know, and things will get better.
[0:09] Maybe You Should Talk to Someone.
Jae:
[0:11] Maybe I should. Maybe I should. I've been thinking about that lately.
Manuel:
[0:15] That's the title of a book that I'm reading ...
Jae:
[0:17] And what's it about?
Manuel:
[0:19] ... that I can highly recommend. I only just started, but already I'm like, do you know when you like start a new book and you can tell early on, this is one of the good ones? It's about ... as far as I can tell, it's about a therapist who kind of describes some of her own sessions with her patients. Obviously it's like all anonymized and stuff. But then she also goes through a breakup and goes and seeks therapy herself, and then she writes about that. And it's good. It's sad and funny and interesting and all of the above.
Jae:
[0:59] It's always very interesting, I think, to get the therapist's point of view because a lot of times when you go to therapy, you only kind of receive what you're doing, but then also to, I guess, get the therapist's, of like we all kind of go through these same struggles, and also seeing how a therapist navigates it can also help, I would say, us navigate our own journeys and stuff like that. I'm adding that book to my list. Thank you for the recommendation.
Our Experiences With Therapy
Manuel:[1:23] I've only ever gone to therapy once in my life, but it was a really, really good experience. I got really lucky, because I think it's very common you have to go to like several different people until you find one that's good. And I like got lucky on the first try. And I really would love to do therapy again. I don't have like a super pressing need, I don't have a big thing ... at least I don't think I have a big thing that I feel like I need to talk through, but I feel like therapy is the kind of thing that even if you don't have that one pressing issue, it can only help and be beneficial to do therapy.
Jae:
[2:04] I agree. Therapy is something that I've definitely gone through a lot. I'm currently about to be on my sixth therapist. My sixth therapist!
Manuel:
[2:14] Lucky number six!
Jae:
[2:15] Lucky number six! And a lot of times, even when I'm talking to people who don't necessarily have like issues or whatnot, therapy has been a nice thing because it's kind of like what the book title is. Sometimes it's just nice to talk to somebody, you know.
Manuel:
[2:31] And especially someone who's on the outside, who's not a friend, and who's also trained to withhold the kind of: You should do this, you should do that, like jumping to solutions.
Jae:
[2:46] Exactly.
Manuel:
[2:47] Like that's really valuable.
Jae:
[2:50] Exactly. It's really nice the way that you had like a good therapist. Most of my therapists that I've had are pretty okay, but then I'm always scarred from this one therapist that I had, it was my third therapist. I was living in Chicago, it was the summer of 2018, I know specifically, she was on her phone while we were doing our therapy sessions.
Manuel:
[3:07] What?!
Jae:
[3:08] Yes!
Manuel:
[3:09] How did she get the job?
Jae:
[3:11] I have no idea, and my people-pleasing self was just there, just trying to talk about all my troubles!
Manuel:
[3:18] You were trying to make her feel good?
Jae:
[3:19] Yeah, yes! And she's just scrolling on her phone and whatnot, and then just like repeating. I'm like: Damn! I'm like: Shit!
Manuel:
[3:28] Did you have to pay out of pocket for those sessions?
Jae:
[3:31] No, these were thankfully in America, thanks for our fucked up health care system My parents had ... it was called like an employee like assistance program, EAP, and what this EAP are able to use it for a family to get appointments or whatnot However, like I've been ... I do therapy on and off because I think the first two therapists I had was through my school. Then it was my third therapist. And then my fourth and fifth, I had to find on my own own. But then those were a little bit more difficult to, like I think, continue, because like the fit there was that I had, I ended up having to pay out-of-pocket even though I had insurance. So it was like,I had the insurance, but then you were still paying like a hundred dollars still for the appointments and stuff like that. And that is not the most encouraging thing, you know, like as if if you want to go to therapy and then you're saying you have to pay. So then introducing to this new method of Germany, it's actually been quite nice to know that you don't really have to pay for healthcare.
Manuel:
[4:40] Yeah, let's talk about that in detail. First off though, I'm looking at our episode list. We did an episode called Mental Health almost a year ago, July 2022, can you believe it? ,And you had just gone through a bit of a crisis.
Jae:
[4:57] Yes.
Manuel:
[5:01] And now you just told me today that you found a therapist in Berlin, which, it's almost like with the whole dating topic, it's becoming a cliché to where like it's ... everybody wants therapy. Not everybody, obviously, but a lot of people are seeking therapy. And while the healthcare system in theory might be better than the US, American healthcare system, it's just really, really difficult to find a spot in Berlin. Or maybe even better would be the comparison to the apartment situation.
Jae:
[5:40] Yeah, I was gonna say there's like a triple threat. There's apartments you can't find, dating you can't find, and therapists you can't find.
Manuel:
[5:49] And if you only had all three of those, you'd be set for life.
Jae:
[5:52] Yes, exactly.
Jae:
[3:11] I have no idea, and my people-pleasing self was just there, just trying to talk about all my troubles!
Manuel:
[3:18] You were trying to make her feel good?
Jae:
[3:19] Yeah, yes! And she's just scrolling on her phone and whatnot, and then just like repeating. I'm like: Damn! I'm like: Shit!
Manuel:
[3:28] Did you have to pay out of pocket for those sessions?
Jae:
[3:31] No, these were thankfully in America, thanks for our fucked up health care system My parents had ... it was called like an employee like assistance program, EAP, and what this EAP are able to use it for a family to get appointments or whatnot However, like I've been ... I do therapy on and off because I think the first two therapists I had was through my school. Then it was my third therapist. And then my fourth and fifth, I had to find on my own own. But then those were a little bit more difficult to, like I think, continue, because like the fit there was that I had, I ended up having to pay out-of-pocket even though I had insurance. So it was like,I had the insurance, but then you were still paying like a hundred dollars still for the appointments and stuff like that. And that is not the most encouraging thing, you know, like as if if you want to go to therapy and then you're saying you have to pay. So then introducing to this new method of Germany, it's actually been quite nice to know that you don't really have to pay for healthcare.
Manuel:
[4:40] Yeah, let's talk about that in detail. First off though, I'm looking at our episode list. We did an episode called Mental Health almost a year ago, July 2022, can you believe it? ,And you had just gone through a bit of a crisis.
Jae:
[4:57] Yes.
Manuel:
[5:01] And now you just told me today that you found a therapist in Berlin, which, it's almost like with the whole dating topic, it's becoming a cliché to where like it's ... everybody wants therapy. Not everybody, obviously, but a lot of people are seeking therapy. And while the healthcare system in theory might be better than the US, American healthcare system, it's just really, really difficult to find a spot in Berlin. Or maybe even better would be the comparison to the apartment situation.
Jae:
[5:40] Yeah, I was gonna say there's like a triple threat. There's apartments you can't find, dating you can't find, and therapists you can't find.
Manuel:
[5:49] And if you only had all three of those, you'd be set for life.
Jae:
[5:52] Yes, exactly.
Psychiatrist, Psychotherapist or Counsellor?
Manuel:[5:55] Yeah, so before we go into the details, I'm looking at our friends from allaboutberlin.com, a nice website, and they have a nice intro that explains the difference between psychiatrist, psychotherapist, and counselor. Do you know the difference between all of those?
Jae:
[6:16] Well, without reading this, a psychiatrist typically is focused more on the medical or like the medication side, like the pharmaceutical side of mental health, so this is a person that I go to that prescribes the amount of medications. However, when it comes to like therapy and stuff like that, they can give you therapy, some of them offer it, but that's not their primary thing. And then you have psychotherapists and counselors, which in my mind are somewhat like, I mean, I hope I don't offend them, but are somewhat like in like a similar field, of these are the people that you kind of like, at least what I would assume, is that you kind of like talk to and they kind of do like that Talk Therapy or different types of therapy.
Manuel:
[6:59] Yeah, yeah. You got to be careful though, because I went to a therapy session with someone else, and I mentioned to the therapist that I would like to do therapy again as well and that I did it once before, as I told you, but that I had also done some coaching with a life coach which I've also done. And she got a little bit ... not offended, but she made it very clear that a life coach which is ... anybody can call themselves a life coach. Like I could say: Hey, I'm a life coach and I'm charging a hundred euros a session now and you can talk to me, and a therapist who's gone through years, sometimes decades, of training and is working with like a method that is founded in science, those are very different things. But yeah, so therapists, as you said, focus more on the therapy, whereas psychiatrists are usually working with, and allowed to, prescribe medication.
Jae:
[8:08] It's interesting, this idea. So counselor, I would not call ... group a counselor with a coach, if I'm in America.
Manuel:
[8:15] That's even a different thing altogether.
Jae:
[8:18] Yeah, a counselor would technically be more like, not necessarily a therapist, but it would be someone who actually is qualified. Like we have "school counselors" or whatnot, but these are people that kind of help you navigate systems and have things. And then like so what ... how All About Berlin describes counselors, I would actually cross out counselors and say coaches.
Manuel:
[8:38] Yeah. Yeah, cause it says they have no specific qualifications, so the difference is a psychotherapist has qualifications. They went to school for this.
Jae:
[8:49] Yes. And that's also covered with your insurance as well.
When Does Insurance Pay for Therapy?
Manuel:[8:53] Right. So let's talk about insurance. So obviously someone who does this needs to be paid, and obviously it costs a lot of money. According to this website, it costs around €100 per hour, which seems about right. Sure it could be even more depending on the person. Group therapy can be cheaper, of course. And then if you have public health insurance ... so like we mentioned TK, Techniker ... Did we do an episode about insurance? I'm pretty sure we did.
Jae:
[9:23] I think you did one.
Manuel:
[9:24] I did one about all the types of insurances. Did we talk about health insurance on that? I'm not sure. But basically, if you just have some like expat insurance that covers just the basics of if you get into an accident, it's not going to be covered. But if you have the regular public health insurance as an employed person in Germany, then it's covered as long as the therapy ... the therapist in like the first three sessions, decides that it is necessary.
Jae:
[9:57] Yeah.
Manuel:
[9:58] I don't have the professional terms, but a therapist needs to say: Yes, this person needs therapy, and then it's covered. If they're like ... if they look at me and they're like: What you need is a coach, you don't need a therapist, then it might not be covered.
Jae:
[10:11] Yeah. My third person I went to was like: You need to go therapy four times a week. I was like: Okay, confirmed. And then something I can add is like when I went to this therapist, he kind of was laying down how the function works, the bureaucratic function, and he was saying that typically, I mean, since you have insurance or if you have like the public insurance you get like ... they focus more like 8 to 12 sessions, and then you can extend that to a hundred, if need be. So you can have a therapist for like years or whatnot depending on how they see that like evaluation or whatnot. So typically I think the average is 8 to 12, and then once those 8 to 12 ... then discussion of exceeding that can happen as well.
Manuel:
[11:01] Right. I think it goes in like phases, or like basically when you first start looking for a therapist, which we'll talk about then you do like one, two or three sessions during which they determine if you "need therapy" and it should be covered, and then they will say: Okay, you need "ten sessions" but then during session number 8 or 9 or 10, they might say: And we're going to extend it to another 10 or 20. And you could keep going like that. But they're not just going to say: Yes, now you're going to do it every day for the rest of your life.
Jae:
[11:40] Exactly. Yeah, yes. So it's nice to have, but hard to get.
Manuel:
[11:47] Yes. So how do you find a therapist? And then, I mean, for you specifically, and many of our listeners, how do you find someone who speaks your language?
Jae:
[11:57] English. And that was, that was so hard to do. And thankfully I had a friend who was like helping me call, because it's like, you want to call people, of course, you know, to see if you can get an appointment. And then my struggle was that the voicemail was in the German, so I was like: I don't know what to press.
Manuel:
[12:15] And this is something that I learned in the book that I'm reading: most therapies, you'll never catch on the phone. They'll always have their voicemail, even if they're there, because they only have like ten-minute breaks in between sessions, and they don't want to pick up the phone for you to have a life crisis, and then for them to say: Sorry, gotta go! So they'd rather, you know ...
Jae:
[12:37] It's understandable.
Manuel:
[12:38] Totally.
Jae:
[12:39] It's just like exhausting.
How Do You Know You Need Therapy?
[12:42] Yeah, I would say maybe the first question before you find a therapist is like, how do you know that you need a therapist?Manuel:
[12:48] Oh! You tell me. I don't know.
Jae:
[12:51] I would say ... so I've been like avoiding, I would say, the journey of getting a therapist for like a minute, because, I mean, most people are probably like me of this: Oh, I can just handle it myself or whatnot. But I think what happened for me was ... so if my listeners don't know, I'm bipolar. And sometimes I get into these, what I call, episodes, these depression episodes. And these depression episodes kind of come every so often or whatnot, and my most recent episode, which I'm kind of in right now, was very, very - what's the word I'm looking for? - very like deeper and different than my other episodes, so it was a lot more difficult to manage. And I think when you start noticing that these things start affecting your personal life, they start affecting the way that you interact, your productivity or whatnot, then those are good signs to get a therapist. If you need it.
[13:51] There's other signs too of just like if you're not feeling well, or if you just feel that you need someone to talk to, getting a therapist is also a really good option to do. Of course, you always can have your friends or your family, but I think, as we mentioned before, having a therapist allows for unbiased, educated view of what you're going through, and this can also provide you methods and practices that can lead you to the right thing. Because it's also ... A disclaimer, we are not doctors, we are not professionals, we are just two people, so you're just talking about the journey of finding a therapist, but definitely I think finding a therapist is really beneficial, especially if you experience anxiety or depression or other things as well.
Manuel:
[14:36] Totally. And I would stress that if you're not sure, you should give it a try, and then leave it to the professional to make a determination if you should keep going or not. Because I was, or still am a little bit, in this conflict where I don't feel like I need it, and especially given the situation in Berlin with so few spots available, I feel very conflicted about seeking out therapy because I feel like: Am I taking a spot from someone who needs it much more urgently? But this therapist that I asked about this, the one that I offended by comparing her profession to a life coach, said, "Well, that's not really up ... like you could do a session with someone and then they can decide, and that's their job to decide whether you "qualify" and you don't have to worry about it. Like there's no ... And it's not like ... Obviously it's with all kinds of these ethical questions or things like that, just because someone else is struggling even more than you, that doesn't disqualify or invalidate your own struggle. So it's okay to seek help or to talk to someone even if other people also need help.
Jae:
[15:58] Yeah, because I also say this, you never know what's going to happen in the future. You can say you're fine right now, but who knows what might happen tomorrow or whatnot. So yes, everyone, get therapy!
Manuel:
[16:09] And the good thing is that in Germany it's not a taboo, really. I mean, maybe in some circles, but in Berlin, it's almost the reverse. You don't have a therapist? How dare you? So it's very much socially accepted. You can talk about it openly. And ... yes.
Jae:
[16:28] Yes.
Finding a Therapist in Berlin
[16:30] Now, let's talk about what's like the first step of trying to find a therapist. There are a few online resources that we started with that kind of helped. I think one of the biggest ones is, KV Berlin. I don't know the full ... Do you know the full name for that?Manuel:
[16:54] It's - I have to read it as well - it's the Kassenärztliche Vereinigung Berlin, so it's basically a unity of the doctors that work for the public insurances or work with public insurances. This might be slightly wrong, but basically they provide a list of doctors and therapists in Berlin that work with public insurance, because you could also be a therapist, and those therapists also exist, that only accept private patients that pay out of pocket or through private health insurance, and so you're wasting your time if you're calling those. And so this is a good list to get an an overview of the ones that you could even use.
Jae:
[17:40] Exactly. And also with this list here, I was able to filter out different things like: Do you speak English? What ethnicity? What particular focus that you need? and a few more types of beneficial things. And this is actually what we kind of used to kind of find my therapist. I just kind of filtered out, made it closer to my location of where I lived, and then it was just: Call, call, call, call, call, call, call!
Manuel:
[18:05] And that's what, so like, that's the black spot - what's the word? - like that's the problem in the system. How can you make it so that someone who's really struggling and who might be in a really tough phase and who might be new here, has to then individually call dozens of doctors, for them to not reach them because nobody answers the phone, or maybe they'll have like: Okay, during this one hour per week, I'll answer my phone. And if you're lucky, you'll get through, but usually you won't. And so then you just leave these awkward messages, hoping they'll call you back, and then maybe someone calls you back, and like that's the system. Just terrible. It's not a good system.
Jae:
[18:50] Yeah, it is not. And this is why I encourage, if you feel good right now, try the therapy. Because when you don't feel good and you're trying to find a therapist, it does not help at all!
Manuel:
[19:00] Right, right.
Jae:
[19:01] And like I really would love, like, the new system ... Like, my other system was just going to be, which, I mean, honestly, you can do this too, but I was going to collect everybody's email and then put them on, like, a CC and just send it all out, which you can do. But then my other friend was like: Okay, well, it's not personal. But then sometimes if you just like need ... you just gotta throw everything out the wall and see what sticks, that also could be like a alternative way of trying to reach out to multiple people at once.
Manuel:
[19:29] Honestly, you might do both. You might send that email and then also pick up the phone and try and call.
Jae:
[19:33] Which is what I did. The emails, they were like: Sorry, no, I don't have availability or whatnot. But the phone calls actually like worked in the sense that most times, of course, you'll get voicemail, but then there will be a nurse. That nurse would then recommend me to something else, and then some of the people would then call me back. And basically the conversations when I call them back were always the same of: Hey, I don't really have any availability right now, but maybe I could put you on the wait list, or: Hey, I could do the consultation call for you. And that was at least beneficial because that was a step in the right direction. Another thing that is also on this website is the 116117.
Manuel:
[20:15] Yes, which many people, even Germans, don't know about.
Jae:
[20:22] Yeah, that was actually something new that one of my friends told me about. So you can actually call this number and they can provide you help, but you can also go to the 116117.de website, and this ...
Manuel:
[20:37] Which, the URL, I just love the URL! It's 116117.de. It's literally the number. So to quickly explain what this is, it's basically a number and it's weird to me that ... Like they need better marketing. Why don't more people know about this? Because one of the problems that they're solving, which I know is a huge problem because my cousin is a medic, like, what do you call people that drive around in ambulances to rescue people?
Jae:
[21:10] I know there's a term, but I would use "medic" for now.
Manuel:
[21:13] Yeah. So one of the huge problems in Germany is that people call the ambulance for minor things. And I mean, sometimes it might be excused because they didn't know any better or they were panicking.
Jae:
[21:30] They call it EMT [Emergency Medical Technician].
Manuel:
[21:31] EMT, yes, that's the American term, I think. So, he's an EMT and he's a Notfallsanitäter, I think is the German ... because there's different roles on each vehicle as well.
Anyway, so what happens is, they will call ... someone will call, and they'll rush there with the siren and everything and it'll be like: Oh, my stomach kind of aches, or: I've bumped my foot, and all things that you can wait a day or a night and go to the doctor. And it's a huge problem. And this is not the only reason why the system is like very much overtaxed, where even in Berlin this year, there were already a few days where apparently all the ambulances were busy, and if you called an ambulance, there might not have been one available. And so that's one of the problems. And this number is supposed to help that.
[22:27] Like if you have some kind of medical, not emergency, but also you don't want to like wait and go to the doctor, you want to talk to somebody now and ask. Call this number and they will ... there's like someone picking up the phone that has some training that does like the first assessment. And then they can decide to put you through to a doctor, and then you might be in ... you might wait for half an hour, but then a doctor will actually pick up and talk to you. And if they want to make sure, they can even send a doctor, but it's not an ambulance. Because an ambulance at the core is really a transportation service. An ambulance is not a way to get a doctor to your house, it's a way to get you to the hospital as fast and efficiently as possible. That's what that is. But the 116117, they can say like: Hey, what you're describing, we should probably check out now, you shouldn't wait a day to go to the doctor, so we'll actually send one to your house. So that's just a little explainer of what 116117 does. But apparently, they can also help with therapy.
Jae:
[23:36] Yes, and another beautiful thing about 116117 is you can actually schedule appointments directly there. So, in addition to calling all of these therapists, you can go to 116117. And that's just how I got my two first therapy appointments, was going to this website and just making an automatic appointment ...
Manuel:
[23:55] That's how it should be, so ...
Jae:
[23:56] Which is, it's not like ... I don't know why this actual website is not pushed out more, because you can legit make an appointment online. Like, yeah, you can call people and yes, we recommend that, but this is also a thing too. The only thing I would say about making this appointment online was that it was difficult to filter out who was English and who was not English. So the people that I ...
Manuel:
[24:20] Speaking.
Jae:
[24:21] Yes, who were speaking English. So the people that I ...
Manuel:
[24:23] Or could you only work with Bri'ish therapists? "I would like to go to an English therapist, please!"
Jae:
[24:33] But you can like, yeah, you can schedule a few different types, but then most of these psychotherapists are more primarily for these adult consultations. You put in your zip code, you put in your email address, and then it will prompt a list of therapists that have available appointments. And what you do is you literally go through the list. I tried to like Google these therapists, but Berlin or Germany still doesn't have like a really good database for therapists, so you can't really see like who they are or what not. But even ... but through this way, you are at least able to start like just finding some sort of like therapist. The only thing is that you have to have statutory health insurance, so I think that's the public health insurance, correct?
Manuel:
[25:20] Probably. I've never heard that term.
Jae:
[25:22] It was ... hold on, I was ... and ... I'll take the original. It's right there.
Manuel:
[25:33] Ich bin gesetzlich krankenversichert. Yeah, that's the public ...
[21:31] EMT, yes, that's the American term, I think. So, he's an EMT and he's a Notfallsanitäter, I think is the German ... because there's different roles on each vehicle as well.
Anyway, so what happens is, they will call ... someone will call, and they'll rush there with the siren and everything and it'll be like: Oh, my stomach kind of aches, or: I've bumped my foot, and all things that you can wait a day or a night and go to the doctor. And it's a huge problem. And this is not the only reason why the system is like very much overtaxed, where even in Berlin this year, there were already a few days where apparently all the ambulances were busy, and if you called an ambulance, there might not have been one available. And so that's one of the problems. And this number is supposed to help that.
[22:27] Like if you have some kind of medical, not emergency, but also you don't want to like wait and go to the doctor, you want to talk to somebody now and ask. Call this number and they will ... there's like someone picking up the phone that has some training that does like the first assessment. And then they can decide to put you through to a doctor, and then you might be in ... you might wait for half an hour, but then a doctor will actually pick up and talk to you. And if they want to make sure, they can even send a doctor, but it's not an ambulance. Because an ambulance at the core is really a transportation service. An ambulance is not a way to get a doctor to your house, it's a way to get you to the hospital as fast and efficiently as possible. That's what that is. But the 116117, they can say like: Hey, what you're describing, we should probably check out now, you shouldn't wait a day to go to the doctor, so we'll actually send one to your house. So that's just a little explainer of what 116117 does. But apparently, they can also help with therapy.
Jae:
[23:36] Yes, and another beautiful thing about 116117 is you can actually schedule appointments directly there. So, in addition to calling all of these therapists, you can go to 116117. And that's just how I got my two first therapy appointments, was going to this website and just making an automatic appointment ...
Manuel:
[23:55] That's how it should be, so ...
Jae:
[23:56] Which is, it's not like ... I don't know why this actual website is not pushed out more, because you can legit make an appointment online. Like, yeah, you can call people and yes, we recommend that, but this is also a thing too. The only thing I would say about making this appointment online was that it was difficult to filter out who was English and who was not English. So the people that I ...
Manuel:
[24:20] Speaking.
Jae:
[24:21] Yes, who were speaking English. So the people that I ...
Manuel:
[24:23] Or could you only work with Bri'ish therapists? "I would like to go to an English therapist, please!"
Jae:
[24:33] But you can like, yeah, you can schedule a few different types, but then most of these psychotherapists are more primarily for these adult consultations. You put in your zip code, you put in your email address, and then it will prompt a list of therapists that have available appointments. And what you do is you literally go through the list. I tried to like Google these therapists, but Berlin or Germany still doesn't have like a really good database for therapists, so you can't really see like who they are or what not. But even ... but through this way, you are at least able to start like just finding some sort of like therapist. The only thing is that you have to have statutory health insurance, so I think that's the public health insurance, correct?
Manuel:
[25:20] Probably. I've never heard that term.
Jae:
[25:22] It was ... hold on, I was ... and ... I'll take the original. It's right there.
Manuel:
[25:33] Ich bin gesetzlich krankenversichert. Yeah, that's the public ...
Jae:
[25:34] Yeah, so if you have public insurance, you're able to use this particular platform, I think that's another thing. But essentially, yeah, you put in what you're looking for. And for me, I put in like I was looking for a psychotherapist adult consultation. Then you put in your email address, and then you check to make sure you have public health insurance. And then once you confirm everything, then it offers you a list of of therapists around you that have available appointments, so you can automatically just book your appointment there. You then ... They then do ask you to call them just to confirm the appointment, but this is also just a good method of finding appointments. The only thing, like I mentioned before, it didn't directly say English, on like who speaks English or not, so that was just like rolling the dice, but this is still, I would say, a really good option if you do need someone to ... which I don't know why no one pushes this. One of my friends told me about this and I was happy to do this, but this is like a really good alternative way as well if you don't wanna call a whole bunch of people all at once.
Manuel:
[26:37] That is a great tip. Yeah, I just started doing it and it's super easy. The website is very clearly designed to be as simple as possible, and especially if you're able to do therapy in German or English, I would just give it a shot. If you need to find someone that speaks another language natively or near natively, I would recommend this website: psych-info.de. And I recommended that in the mental health episode that we did, because they actually do have a language filter where you can select other languages. It might not be super thorough, as you mentioned, like there's no like one central database that's up to date, but this one, if you're looking for a therapist in French or Spanish or whatever it may be, I would also try this website. But yeah, the 116117, man, it's a good website number to call. 24-7 you can call. It's private and free and they can help you find a doctor. And it's just not meant for emergencies - call 112 for that - and they can help you with dentists. There's a separate like website for dentists.
Your First Consultation
Jae:
[28:00] Yes. So now, once you have made your appointment, how is the actual experience of going to this first consultation? I will tell you that simply most of what the consultations were, for me, it was kind of rinse and repeat, like you kind of say the same exact thing every single time, but essentially it's an evaluation. It is for the therapist to then, kind of like what we're talking about, see what type of help that you do need, because there's also different types of therapy that you can take, and then they provide you their recommendation. Most times, as you're talking to them, they'll just ask you questions, like a normal, quick therapy session. And then at the end of it, they gave me this paper. And this paper ... I forgot what the name of the paper is, but it essentially kind of was like a confirmation that they went to this therapist, and that they recommend that you do need therapy. They also gave me a referral code to go then back on the 116117 number to then get another appointment with somebody else.
[28:00] Yes. So now, once you have made your appointment, how is the actual experience of going to this first consultation? I will tell you that simply most of what the consultations were, for me, it was kind of rinse and repeat, like you kind of say the same exact thing every single time, but essentially it's an evaluation. It is for the therapist to then, kind of like what we're talking about, see what type of help that you do need, because there's also different types of therapy that you can take, and then they provide you their recommendation. Most times, as you're talking to them, they'll just ask you questions, like a normal, quick therapy session. And then at the end of it, they gave me this paper. And this paper ... I forgot what the name of the paper is, but it essentially kind of was like a confirmation that they went to this therapist, and that they recommend that you do need therapy. They also gave me a referral code to go then back on the 116117 number to then get another appointment with somebody else.
Manuel:
[28:59] Okay, before we go there, about the like why would you go to someone else? For someone who's never been to therapy, can you like walk us through very ... in concrete terms, how does that go? Like you ring the bell and then what happens? What does the room look like? What do they say? Like how does it go?
Jae:
[29:19] Yeah, so typically, in all of my in-person ones, you ring the bell, you come in, you're very nervous!
Manuel:
[29:26] Why are you nervous? You've done it six times!
Jae:
[29:29] Because ... I know! Because it's just like, you just don't know like how it's going to be, or how the person is. And yeah, you just get like ... I'm very quiet when I enter into these spaces, which is very opposite ...
Manuel:
[29:40] Hard to believe!
Jae:
[29:41] I know, it is very opposite of who I am! And I get like very, like, just like this. But most times, if it's a good therapist, they are relaxing, they are welcoming. So you essentially go in. Most therapists always ask me to take off my shoes whenever I get in.
Manuel:
[29:55] Is that only Germany or is that everywhere?
Jae:
[29:57] That was just Germany for me. And when I was back in the States, never really had to take off the shoes thing. But essentially you sit in a chair and ...
Manuel:
[30:05] A chair or a couch?
Jae:
[30:07] All the ones that I've been to have been like a chair, but I'm sure that's ... like they always all have the couch too, I guess, if you want to like lay down, you know, like in all the movies ...
Manuel:
[30:16] They have the right Freudian therapy. You lay down. Yeah, I don't think that's a thing anymore
Jae:
[30:22] Yeah, no, I don't see that, but everyone does have a couch. But yes, but you essentially like sit down, and then they sit ... most therapists here weirdly sit really far apart, so I guess maybe to give that space of the comfortability, but ...
Manuel:
[30:40] And the distance, right? It's really important to have ... like you're not supposed to do therapy with anyone that you know personally, even remotely, like there is this ... And also everything I'm telling you, mostly I know from this book that I'm reading, like they won't have any family photos or anything in there because they don't really want their personal life to be a thing at all. Like they're just your therapist, they're nothing else, like there's no, they're not going to tell you about their personal lives.
Jae:
[31:08] Exactly. And it definitely seems like that, like most of the places I've been to were quite neutral. And I think this is to allow you to kind of make the space your own and not to be like ... have this weird impression. So most times you just sit down, and they always just ask me, "So, why are you here?"
Manuel:
[31:29] That's the opener. That's the icebreaker.
Jae:
[31:30] That's the opener, and I always say, "Huh, well, where do I begin?" And this is a part that I am still conflicted on, like how you navigate this. And a lot of times you don't know where to begin. So typically for me, I always begin with my diagnosis, what I'm diagnosed with, what I'm feeling in the exact moment, and then we kind of go into like okay, like well then, like just your story of like everything. And it becomes more of a conversation at that point, you know. Like I think the more you are in this appointment, the more relaxed you get. And there's really nothing you have to do. All you have to do is show up and sit down and allow yourself to open up just a little bit. And most times, like I said, if it's a good therapist, they'll know how to navigate that conversation for you. So there's like ... Sometimes I've always felt pressure that I have to be the one to navigate the conversation, and then like there'll be signs, I'm like: Okay, I need to say something. But really, you're not there to be in control. You're there to just relax. And like, it's like you're going to the doctor, let them do the work.
Manuel:
[32:40] I don't know, they're earning like €100 an hour. Let them do the work!
Jae:
[32:44] Yes, yes.
Manuel:
[32:45] Yeah, something that the one therapist that I did go to was very good at, was establishing kind of the ground rules, which included him assuring me that whatever I say in that room stays in that room forever and he will never share without my consent. And I forgot what else, but there were like a few things where I just felt like it was very professional, and it kind of allowed me to really open up to where I felt like I didn't have to censor myself in any way, shape, or form.
Jae:
[33:22] Yes, and those are great therapists too, because a lot of times you can feel very shamed or judged or feeling guilty or whatnot for your feelings or maybe what your actions or whatnot, but if it's a good therapist, they will set those ground rules of like: This is a safe space where you can share whatever you are, and I'm not here to judge you, I'm just here to listen. And that definitely helps with, I think, opening up. But also, I mean, it's understandable that it takes time too, especially if you have to do these consultations every single time, you know, it gets quite exhausting. But after the second person, I just made a piece of paper.
Manuel:
[34:04] Read this! Here's my overview!
Jae:
[34:06] Yes. And actually, they didn't like that. Like, both of the therapists I gave it to, they were like, "No, I don't want that."
Manuel:
[34:11] Because I don't think it's about the information. I don't think ... Or maybe partly, but it's not that they just want to get all the info so they can present you with a solution. They want you to open up.
Jae:
[34:21] Yes, exactly. And that was very interesting because like I had my paper, I had my diagnosis, I had what I was taking, my medication, I had like how I was feeling, and they were like, "I don't want that. I just want you to talk to us." And I guess I get that, because then it becomes a very unbiased view, you know, they don't have anything that they're going to judge you on first, they just want to hear your story And this was like a really, I think, good way to open up. And then I always notice that like about by 20 minutes, 30 minutes in there, I'm relaxed, I can like ... I feel more expressive and like I feel that: Okay, this is like a really good like, moment for me to do. And like I said, it makes it much easier if they do speak English because you don't feel you have to like, really like, filter or watch your words and stuff like that.
Manuel:
[35:06] Yeah.
Finding a Permanent Therapist
[35:07] So then you mentioned, they will kind of give you a piece of paper after the first session for kind of the next session, but then one of the tricky things is that apparently it's quite easy to find a first consultation, but then they will say: Yes, it was nice meeting you, yes, you need therapy, no, I can't take you on.Jae:
[35:31] And that was exactly ... The first three people said that. It was not ... Like the third therapist I actually really did like, but that was her exact words were, "I cannot take you on right now.
Manuel:
[35:43] And there's some ... I don't know the details, but there's like some law that every practicing therapist who's working for the insurance companies, or with insurance companies, has to offer these kind of consultation hours, even if they're fully booked, even if the result is always going to be, "I can't take anyone on," they still have to offer these consultations, which is why you can get an appointment and then be turned down.
Jae:
[36:07] Yes, which is like ... And they always tell me before that like, "This is only a consultation. I don't have room for you," but like I said, those consultation hours are very important. And then there's also this thing - and don't quote me on this people, please - but I heard that like if you get three of these papers, then you can reach out to your insurance company and they like have to get you an appointment or whatnot.
Manuel:
[36:35] Yes. So I know very little about this as well, but apparently if you can prove that you need therapy but you can't find a spot, and this might include having three of these papers, then at some point you might be able to go to a therapist that doesn't work with the insurance companies, and pay out of pocket, and the insurance company is then supposed to reimburse you. But, I know from a friend that this is a huge struggle, and for some reason, the insurance company will fight tooth and nail to avoid this. And so yes, theoretically, this is an option. And I think if you've gone through like three or five or seven of these consultation sessions and no one can take you on, I would try to go there, but prepare yourself for a bit of a discussion. If not, possibly whatever, you might have to take legal steps to kind of force that to happen, but apparently it is a solution and I think especially in Berlin where it's so difficult to find a spot, this might be something to look into.
Jae:
[37:52] Yeah, interesting. I did not know that. They don't make it easy!
Manuel:
[37:58] No. So how did you end up finding a permanent therapist?
Jae:
[38:02] This was just a person that like as I was just like cold calling people I had left a voicemail, and then he had called me back and said that he doesn't have any appointments but he can put me on his waitlist. And I always accept. Whatever a therapist offers. I just accept. I'm like, "Yes, put me on your waitlist. Yes, give me a consultation hour. Yes, yes, yes." 'Cause you just never know, right? So I'm, "Okay, yes, Put me on your wait list," and I was thinking this person would like not ever call me back, and then he sent me a text message saying, "Hey, I have this appointment, someone dropped out, I have this appointment. Can you come at this time?"
Manuel:
[38:34] In ten minutes!
Jae:
[38:35] Yeah, and like I think he messaged me on a Friday and I was ... like, it was going to be on a Monday. I'm like, "Okay, yes, I'll take that." And then I was like, okay, well ... And when you have like, there'll be appointments, you kind of just have to just take it. Like I had to like miss one of our meetings because I'm like: Okay, this is like the only appointment that I can get. So then he texted me and said, "Okay, great, I can see you at this time." And I went there, and then at the end of the session he was ... And I was only thinking it was only going to be a consultation. I didn't think he was actually going to be able to like offer me the actual continuous spots, but then he was like okay, it was, "Are you available to do this? Do you want to do this?" Consistently, I'm like, "Hella fucking yes, I wanna do this consistently."
Manuel:
[39:16] That's what you said?
Jae:
[39:17] Yes!
Manuel:
[39:18] Hella fucking yes!
Jae:
[39:19] Hella fucking yes! Sign me up now! So then, yeah, that was just how it happened. And it was kind of like unexpected, like I didn't expect that to happen, but I'm really happy that now I have somebody that I can consistently go to now. And I guess this actively took me about ... like I would say average like one month of actively doing this.
Manuel:
[39:45] So not as difficult as finding an apartment, but more difficult than it should be.
Jae:
[39:51] More difficult than it should be, especially if you're in a drastic situation.
Manuel:
[39:57] Right. And I have one last recommendation about that, and it's Berlin-specific - I hope other cities have similar things - which is the Berliner Krisendienst. Have you heard of this?
[40:13] So it's a ... I don't even know, it is a service provided by ... oh, I think ... so it's different kind of associations, but also Caritas, which is religious, which is like Catholic or whatever, but you wouldn't know this, like I wouldn't know this if I hadn't just looked into this. Basically they say on their website: People have crises, Berlin offers a crisis service, multilingual assistance and cooperation with interpreters and linguists. Basically they have a physical place in quite a few different areas of Berlin. They have one in Pankow, one in Spandau, one in Reineckendorf, one in Mitte, and if you have a crisis, an acute crisis, you can call them around the clock, I think, and you can go there in person between 4 pm and midnight, and someone will be there, and they might not be a therapist, but they will be trained in some capacity and they'll be there to catch you.
[41:30] You can more or less immediately talk to someone, and they can also then kind of, if it's really serious, refer you to a hospital. If you are not comfortable going home after that, you can go to a hospital. And if you look at their Google reviews, for the Mitte one at least, they're really bad. A lot of people are writing that they had like bad experiences there and people were rude. I've been there a few times with people and it was always great. Like maybe people weren't ... I don't know what people expect or maybe, you know, it might really depend on the kind of person who's working that day, but in our case, the people that I encountered there were amazing. And just having that. It's completely free, it's not tied to insurance or anything, it's just like for everybody, I think. And yeah, I think that's also another thing that should be more widely known: that these places exist and you can just go.
Jae:
[42:36] Yeah, that is. I never even heard of that. It's so interesting how like there are really good services and they're not like hidden, but they're not like exposed either.
Manuel:
[42:46] Because they're not-for-profit. And who runs ads other than for-profit companies, right?
Jae:
[42:53] That's very true, yeah. So it does have in this kind of word of mouth type of thing, of like: Hey, just try this. And I'm like: Wait, this is really just in my face. Like how did I not notice that this was an option?
Manuel:
[43:04] But Jae, that's what we're for.
Jae:
[43:06] That is what we are for, you know, and things will get better.