Show Notes
Transcript
Manuel:
[0:08] So today we're finally tackling a topic that I can't believe it took us - how many episodes? - 64 episodes? ... 63 episodes, to get to. And with me in the studio today is the person who suggested it and volunteered. Welcome, Tatiana.
Tatiana:
[0:28] Yeah, thank you.
Manuel:
[0:29] Tatiana, you are originally from Russia, but you've lived here for a while, since the beginning of January 2019. So it's been five years since you've been here.
Tatiana:
[0:40] It wasn't January 2019, it was October 2019.
Manuel:
[0:44] October 2019, you came here. So you've been here for a while. And you came here as a student.
Tatiana:
[0:49] Yes, exactly.
Manuel:
[0:50] And you are one of our listeners who went to everyone.berlin - that's our wonderful website. And you clicked on contribute. and you saw that the first thing you can do is suggest a topic or a guest, including yourself. And you sent us a message and you said, hey, you've never done an episode about being a student in Berlin, even though there's so many students, there's so many universities. And I was a student in Berlin. Now I finished, I graduated, I'm working and I have a lot of notes and I'm happy to answer any of your questions.
Tatiana:
[1:31] Yes.
Manuel:
[1:32] Did I summarize? Did I introduce you correctly?
Tatiana:
[1:35] Yeah. So it wasn't my idea from the beginning that I am a good fit for that because I graduated. But yeah, I still can share everything.
Manuel:
[1:44] That's true. I think you just suggested the topic. And then I said, "That's a great idea, but we don't have anyone to interview about this. How about yourself?" That's always something that anyone can basically do on this show. You can just write in, suggest a topic. And really, if you're in Berlin, or even if you're not in Berlin, we're happy to have you on. If you have experience to share, then come on and tell us about your experience.
Deciding to Study in Germany
Manuel:
[2:10] So Tatiana, let's start with the beginning. What made you decide to study in Germany? Or how did that process, that decision-making process ... You were just a student in Russia and you thought, "What am I going to do with my life?" And then somewhere, somehow, you got the idea to study in Germany.
Tatiana:
[2:34] Yes, it was a really long process. I would say, it wasn't my dream. It wasn't an idea that I just, "Okay I just want to go out here." No, I am ... I was thinking that I would just want to go abroad and have an experience to live abroad for quite a long time, not for a short time. And initially, my idea was actually to go to work, because I have already my Bachelor and I was studying my Master, so I didn't think that I'm going to study more, it was already something, that decided thing. And I also wanted to have an experience. And I was thinking maybe I could go to America for this Work and Travel Program, but it didn't work out because the embassy was ... I think in 2017 or 2018, the embassy in St. Petersburg was closed. So only one remained in Moscow, and they told us it's really, really difficult now to apply for that program from Russia. So: think about something else!
Tatiana:
[3:42] And I just started to ask my friends, "Hey, do you have any idea? What can we do? Can we maybe go somewhere? Do you know somebody who knows something? Do you know somebody who lives abroad already?" And this is how I found out: just one of my classmates, he told me, "Actually, I want to go and study in Germany." And I was like, "Okay, how does it work?" He told me it's almost for free. It's just have like €300 that you pay every semester. And you also have an ability to work for 20 hours per week. [Yeah, that's true.] So you can combine.
Manuel:
[4:18] So there are countries where going to university is really, really expensive. And in Germany, as long as you stick to the public universities, it's essentially free. Like you mentioned, you have to pay a semester fee. That includes your public transport that you can then use, you know, for free or without further cost and some contributions to the university. But it's usually around €300 per semester, so very cheap compared to what studying in the US costs.
Tatiana:
[4:48] Yes, it's not even a fee. It's some kind of like ... Your ticket ... [Yeah.] It's also salaries for student community, I think.
Manuel:
[4:57] Yeah, it's called Semesterbeitrag. It's not a university fee. It's kind of like your Nebenkosten for your apartment, [Yeah.] the stuff that needs to be covered, because you're receiving services as well, yeah.
Discovering the DAAD
Manuel:
[5:15] Okay. And then you told me that you discovered the DAAD, Deutscher Akademischer Austauschdienst, or in English, the German Academic Exchange Service. I have my own experience with this organization, because what they do is, basically they organize international academic cooperation. So their job is to kind of help foreign exchange students study in Germany and vice versa. And I actually received a scholarship. They also provided scholarships, when I was in university in Germany, to study in Mexico. [Okay.] So they essentially paid for everything that was related to my two semesters in Mexico. I ... Well, I didn't have to pay for the university because the university waived the fees for the exchange students, but the German Academic Exchange Service paid for my flights, for my insurance, for my ... even living cost.
Tatiana:
[6:20] Wow, that's very kind of them!
Manuel:
[6:22] Very kind of them. And the crazy thing was that the way it worked, at least at my university, was that there were two scholarships specifically for my university, - reserved for my university - and I was the only person in my class that wanted to go. Like the professor who was responsible for this program essentially told me, look, we're going to recommend you. You're going to get the scholarship. But under the condition that you find someone else who also takes it because it would be so shameful if we leave an open spot. That's how unpopular it was at my university to essentially miss two semesters in Germany and go abroad. It was crazy to me. It's like, it's free. I can go to Mexico for free! This is the jackpot!
Navigating the Application Process
Manuel:
[7:08] So anyway, that's my personal story. What was your relationship to the DAAD? How did they help you?
Tatiana:
[7:16] I think every student or every person who wants actually to study in Germany, they should start from this website. It's basically like Wikipedia for anyone. Because you can just go there and apply your filters. For example, I want to study Master. I want to start a Master in Geophysics, and I want it in English. And then they will just give you all the programs available in Germany, like maybe 50 of them. And you can just read directly all the programs, filter them, maybe, "Okay, this one I don't like, this one is not in the city that I want to." And then, for example, choose like 10 of them and just prepare all the documents and apply. So basically, I think everybody who is interested should start from the DAAD.
Manuel:
[8:04] That's really cool. I didn't know that they were doing that. So that's a specific part of their website - we'll link it in the show notes, of course - so you started on this website, browsed all the courses, and then how did you decide on a course to apply to ... ?
Tatiana:
[8:20] Through suggestion of my friend. He told me that he already ... like he suggested me then I was scrolling, but there's so many courses, different things. Then I asked him, "So what have you decided?" Eventually, he told me, "Yeah, this one." And because we were doing the same Master, and we also have done the same Bachelor, so, of course, when I knew about the course, I was like, "This is a perfect course. I also want to go."
Manuel:
[8:44] Okay, so you ended up picking a course based on a personal recommendation, basically, not because of the website. But it helped you know what you then had to do as the next step?
Tatiana:
[8:53] Yes, totally, because it has all the information and then it has also all the links to the university and to the program. So, for example, in my case, it was really important that I didn't want to pass any specific language exam.
Manuel:
[9:08] Why not?
Tatiana:
[9:10] Because it would cost me so much time.
Manuel:
[9:13] So you wanted to be able to study in English, I guess.
Tatiana:
[9:16] I wanted to be able to study in English. I didn't want to pass any specific test for that. And I have chosen also this program because they require just basically a certificate from your university that your English is good enough to study.
Manuel:
[9:33] Wow, that's a loophole. And is that something you would recommend to everyone? Or would you say, "Hey, you know, you can also ... " I mean, I think it's fine. I know these tests, the TEFL tests and stuff. They are nerve-wracking and they cost money, but it's also part of the process normally?
Tatiana:
[9:50] It's part of the process, yeah. But I just wasn't thinking about it. When I already decided that I want to go to Germany, it was kind of already late to prepare. I was thinking, no, even if I prepare and then it will take so much of the time of me. So I decided, no, if there is a course like this and it actually fits us really, really good, so why not?
Manuel:
[10:13] Okay. Yeah, that sounds great.
Preparing the Necessary Documents
Manuel:
[10:15] So you didn't have to prepare a language test or pass a language exam. but I'm sure you had to prepare a lot of other documents. [Oh yeah, oh yes,] Tell me about all the documents, all the bureaucracy that you had to endure.
Tatiana:
[10:30] Yeah, so what is also helpful in that, because they link you to different programs in universities, in Germany the system is like this, that they don't really have like one package that you have to apply to. Every specific program requires different documents. So in my case, it was a Bachelor and supplement to my Bachelor: this certificate about my English level, a motivational letter, the table of your life from 16, I think.
Manuel:
[11:09] Yeah, so CV basically, right?
Tatiana:
[11:11] Yeah, basically CV.
Manuel:
[11:11] In the German format, which is called Tabellarischer Lebenslauf. So it's like it's different than a CV looks in the US, or a resume. There's a specific format in Germany. [Yeah.]
Tatiana:
[11:22] So because I also studied Master back then, I had to go to my university and ask them for a transcript of courses that I have already done. And I asked my supervisor to write me a recommendation letter for me. And also I worked in meteorological stations. So my background is meteorology and I worked in meteorological stations. So, I also asked my boss to write me a recommendation letter, because it's connected to studies somehow. So, it was a ... Yeah, I think there's nothing really complicated about this package if you have already everything. And the most difficult thing was just everything should be translated.
Manuel:
[12:06] And does it have to be like a certified, specific translator?
Tatiana:
[12:11] Yes. So, motivational letter, of course, no, CV, no, but all the documents that are even ... for example, certificate that I'm studying or the certificate that I'm working, for example, in the meteorological station has to be certified as well.
Manuel:
[12:28] Two questions about that. So, number one, if I understood correctly, this package of documents differs from university to university, even within a university, depending on the course you apply to, it can differ. [Yeah.] So, we can't really say on this podcast, this is what you'll need. You kind of have to pick a course, pick a university, and then see on their website or ask, "What do I need to prepare to apply for this course?"
Tatiana:
[12:53] Yes. I think that three documents that are motivational letter, your Bachelor's degree, and this CV, these are the basic ones that every university will require.
Manuel:
[13:03] Unless you're applying for a Bachelor's degree.
Tatiana:
[13:05] Yes.
Manuel:
[13:06] And how did you find this certified translator? Is that something you just google?
Tatiana:
[13:13] Yeah, I just googled it, and I found out it was really easy.
Manuel:
[13:15] I've actually done that before as well. I don't even remember why I needed it, but I remember I needed it once too and I just googled it and found someone based in Berlin. But in the end it was even all via email, I think. They just ... yeah they, essentially, take a scan, they translate it, and then they give you a certificate that they translated it correctly.
Tatiana:
[13:40] In my case it was even easier, a little bit. It was like a bureau where you come, and there are so many translators, so many languages, that you just come to them give them all your documents and they're just translating. And also pretty fast, I think, in less than one week.
Manuel:
[13:54] Yeah. I'm sure that will be surpassed by AI pretty soon, where there's just a certified AI.
Understanding Uni-Assist
Manuel:
[14:02] Okay, so you prepared all these documents. I see in the preparations that you made for this podcast that you had uni-assist. I've heard of this before, but I have no idea what that is. It sounds like someone who's assisting you.
Tatiana:
[14:18] Didn't you apply your documents through uni-assist?
Manuel:
[14:21] No. In my case, it was very easy. When I studied in Mexico, they didn't really need much from me. And I think most of the stuff that they needed, I did when I was already there.
Tatiana:
[14:35] And what about German university?
Manuel:
[14:38] I just applied at the university.
Tatiana:
[14:40] Okay.
Manuel:
[14:41] I've never used uni-assist. I don't even know what it is. It might not have even existed when I studied.
Tatiana:
[14:47] Okay, probably this is the reason, because I think everybody ... ["You're probably just old!"] No! I think because now everybody's applying through uni-assist.
Manuel:
[14:56] Okay, so explain. You're applying through uni-assist. I'm looking at their imprint and it says uni-assist e.V. So it's an eingetragener Verein. It's just like a non-commercial thing that someone started.
Tatiana:
[15:10] Yes.
Manuel:
[15:10] It's not a government thing.
Tatiana:
[15:12] Yes, it's not. So basically, you have to apply through them if your university requires that. So they would say, "Here is our program, apply through uni-assist, you find our program, and you upload all the documents there." So I think they just check and verify them, and then send them to the university.
Manuel:
[15:38] Okay, makes sense. They're probably just making it easier for the universities. We're hiring people for our company through a platform that makes it much easier for us. People have to apply and upload their CD through the platform and then we get it in a nice filtered way, and there's an automated screening tool. This sounds like it's the same for the university. So basically, you have to just check if your university requires this, and then you send your documents through this website.
Tatiana:
[16:05] Yes, and sometimes some programs, I think really popular programs, they require a fee also for you to pay.
Manuel:
[16:12] Just for the application?
Tatiana:
[16:13] Yes.
Manuel:
[16:14] Okay, how high is this fee?
Tatiana:
[16:15] I don't know because I didn't pay.
Manuel:
[16:18] Okay. Speaking of money though ...
Financial Realities of Studying Abroad
Tatiana:
[16:20] Oh, yeah.
Manuel:
[16:22] You learned that you did - even though it's all free, no university fees - you needed money.
Tatiana:
[16:29] Yes. Everybody needs to prove that they can survive for at least one year in Germany, so they need a blocked account money.
Manuel:
[16:39] A blocked account. Yeah I've heard of this before because I've helped people with their student visas before. So basically, the idea here is the German government ... So this doesn't have anything to do with the university, right? [Right.] It has to have something to do with your visa. So in order to come here, you need a visa, unless you're in the EU or from the EU, then I guess this doesn't apply. But if you're from outside of the EU, you're going to need a visa for your studies here.
Tatiana:
[17:09] Exactly.
Manuel:
[17:10] And the German government would like to know during this time that you're studying here, how are you going to pay your rent, your groceries, your insurance, your bicycle, whatever. And in order to prove this, you have to create a blocked account.
Tatiana:
[17:28] Yes.
Manuel:
[17:29] How does that work?
Tatiana:
[17:31] I don't know how does it work exactly because I just found out how to do it the most easiest way. It's through Fintiba. There is a service for that, who is doing everything for you. So initially, I think, you can come to any bank or contact any bank and tell them, and they provide a service for you because it's just a normal bank account where you just put all this money at once and then they transfer you back once per month a certain amount.
Manuel:
[18:00] Right so you provided a table here the exact amount changes every year but in 2025 for example the annual amount is €11 904, so almost €12 000. You put that money in a bank account upfront, you have to have that money, you put it in a bank account. And then the bank says "Great. Now we got the money you are going to get it back, but not all at once. We're going to give you one-twelfth of it back every month, so, €992 per month. And the idea is that you use that money to pay your monthly expenses, but you can't just go party really hard on your first week ... during your first week.
Tatiana:
[18:45] No, basically, you can do anything with this.
Manuel:
[18:47] Yeah, but you can't spend it all at once, I think is the idea.
Tatiana:
[18:51] Yeah, you can't.
Manuel:
[18:51] They want to make sure! I guess they just don't trust students to handle their money. So it's not enough to have enough money. You have to ... Yeah, the government wants to make sure that you have money for the whole year.
Tatiana:
[19:07] Yes, exactly.
Manuel:
[19:09] This sounds to me like a huge burden. Because you mentioned that you're actually allowed to work for up to 20 hours while you're a student. And that's how most, or I don't know if most, but many students finance their studies. I mean, I worked while I was a student, part-time, and if that's your plan, then that's good, but you still need to upfront have all of this money in a bank account.
Tatiana:
[19:35] Yes, and it's really like a lot, I would say, all at once to put.
Manuel:
[19:41] €12,000. I definitely did not have that much money when I was a student. So, do you have any tips about that? Are there any ... ? I guess, not, right? You just need to come up with that money, help from your parents or take a loan. I guess there's no real shortcut to that.
Tatiana:
[19:58] I would say that if this is the only one thing that bothers you as a student when you're applying, don't be bothered about it. I don't know, try any way to find the money. You ask your friends, take a loan, anything! Because ...
Manuel:
[20:15] Any legal ways, or ... ?
Tatiana:
[20:17] Any legal way, yes. Because, as you said already, when you come into Germany and then you study and you work this 20 hours, so you will take all this money back. And also, this is not a fee that you're paying. It's still your money. So even if you took it from someone, you still give it to someone back, it's okay. So I think just this amount scares people. So in my ... I was also really scared. I knew about it when I already applied all the documents through the uni-assist, and then I knew about this amount. And I was really angry to my friend that he didn't mention it never before. And he told me, "It's okay, just chill. You still have the whole summer and maybe you just speak with all of your relatives, figure out how does it work, collect the amount and the rest I can give you." So basically he helped me to come. And as I said, every month my money was on my bank account, so I could collect it back and just give it to him. And he was also here in Germany, so it was really easy.
Manuel:
[21:29] Okay, so essentially, it's not that you need to even live off of this money. It's still realistic to work while studying. And then pay your expenses through the money that you are earning. And then if you come up with these €12,000, you just need to essentially find someone who loans you this much money, but they know for sure if they trust you that they'll get it back within a year because the government gives you one twelfth of it back every month and you can just immediately pay it back.
Tatiana:
[22:00] Plus you need to remember that anything, actually, also can happen. So this is also a guarantee, even for yourself, that you have money even if there will be any kind of difficult situation.
Manuel:
[22:13] Sure, yeah, if you can't work after all, you still need to pay your bills.
Obtaining a Student Visa
Manuel:
[22:17] Okay, so you came up with the money. Was it difficult to get the student visa?
Tatiana:
[22:22] No, not at all. Basically, when I received my letter from my professor, I still remember that day. It was 5th of July 2019. I was jumping on my bed. I was so happy. And once you have this letter, I think, and blocked account money, it's okay. You don't really need so many documents. You need to have travel insurance and you need to already kind of apply for the insurance in Germany. You need to have your passport ready.
Manuel:
[22:54] Is there a specific travel or health insurance that you can get as a student, or is it just the public?
Tatiana:
[23:01] It's normal public insurance, but because you can't pay for it right now, right away, you just kind of apply for it and just show that, okay, I have applied. But before, you buy normal travel insurance for, I think, two weeks, maybe one month.
Manuel:
[23:18] Okay. So you buy temporary travel health insurance and you apply for the regular public health insurance, which you can pick any company: Techniker, Krankenkasse, AOK, whatever. You show the university that you've applied, and then once you're here, you start studying, you actually join the insurance. On this podcast we've talked many times about how difficult it is to find a place to live in Berlin. I'm sure it was easier in 2019. What was your method? How did you find a place to live?
Tatiana:
[23:55] I just applied for a dormitory as soon as I knew that I will be a student in Germany. So I think 5th of July I knew, and 6th of July I applied straight away. But they didn't reply to me.
Manuel:
[24:11] This was a dorm run by the university?
Tatiana:
[24:14] It's not from the university exactly, because it's Studentenwerk. Studentenwerk is kind of like, it's a Potsdam Studentenwerk. So it's an organization who is housing students, but it's not run by the university exactly. But because they know that there is ... in Potsdam there is only a couple or three big universities there, so basically, there are not so many offers.
Manuel:
[24:42] Yeah, we should mention ... I think we forgot to mention that you didn't study in Berlin City, but in Potsdam, our little lovely neighbor. We have a great episode about how lovely Potsdam is. I think it was called, "The Best Part About Berlin is Potsdam." Do you agree with that statement? So you studied at one of the universities there and ... But the Studentenwerk is something that exists in every city. So Berlin also has a Studentenwerk, and that's where you can apply for dorm rooms. And then, obviously, we've talked on and on about how you can find a WG like a shared place to live or an apartment obviously you can do any of those things but the dorm room you can only or the Studentenwerk, Studentenwohnheim, you can only apply to as a student. So your chances are higher there because the pool is limited. Other non-student people can't apply to those places.
Tatiana:
[25:38] But there is also a queue. It's not easy.
Manuel:
[25:41] It's not a guarantee, I guess.
Tatiana:
[25:43] Yes.
Manuel:
[25:45] Yeah, so your tip is very important: to just start as soon as you know.
Tatiana:
[25:49] Yes, and even if they tell you that there is no place, still apply and still wait. Even if you came to Germany and they still tell you that there is no place, still apply. Or there is even another tip, just go to the dorm and just put a paper that, "I'm a student and I need a room." And definitely someone will contact you, because the students, they're just a house. They come, they leave. If somebody's leaving for a semester abroad, somebody's coming. So they're constantly just sharing their apartments with someone. So even if you can't do it through Studentenwerk, maybe you can't do it through another student and then just take their room, for example, if they're leaving.
Manuel:
[26:28] Okay. You just need to be super proactive about it. So we've been speaking for almost half an hour, and so far, you haven't even arrived in Germany!
Arriving in Germany
Manuel:
[26:40] I think we've gotten to the place where you're landing, touching down. [Yes.] Was that your first time in Germany?
Tatiana:
[26:47] Almost, yes.
Manuel:
[26:49] And how did you feel.
Tatiana:
[26:52] I wasn't scared, although my mother was like asking me, "Are you scared?" I was like, "No, I'm really excited. And once I land here, then I become cautious, I would say. [Cautious?] Yes, because I was like, "Okay, now I'm here, what am I doing, what are my next steps?" So there was a friend of my friend who actually met me at the airport, and he helped me in the first ... yeah, the first week. So with his help, it was really easy for me. Smooth. Still a lot of culture shocks, but it was smooth.
Manuel:
[27:34] What do you do if you don't have a friend who welcomes you and picks you up from the airport? What would you say?
Tatiana:
[27:40] I would say that you need to google a lot, and you need to be prepared for any kind of situation, at least for first couple of days.
Manuel:
[27:51] Yeah, I remember my university, even just my German university, had a buddy program, not just for international students, for anyone, anyone who, you know, started a Bachelor would be paired up with someone who was in their third or fourth semester, and they would kind of take your hand, figuratively - or maybe sometimes literally - and show you the campus and answer your questions. I think that's really nice.
Tatiana:
[28:18] Yeah, I have also applied for that program when I came. The only problem with this program is that I think the university is collecting all the data from the students who want to participate and who want to help. And then they share this data a little bit late, I think right in the beginning of semester, maybe a couple of days before. So I arrived in Germany 2nd of October, and my body, I think, contacted me something like 15th or 16th, very first time.
Manuel:
[28:51] So you were on your own for the first two weeks?
Tatiana:
[28:54] Yeah, so I said, "Thank you so much. I have already kind of figured out with everything I could." And the same happened with me when I wanted to help to a girl. And I got her contact and I tell her, "So do you need any help?" She told me, "Actually, I also have already figured out, but we can just meet for dinner or maybe just to talk."
Manuel:
[29:13] Oh, that's nice. Okay, and when you say you've already figured everything out, what exactly was there to figure out in the first two weeks?
Tatiana:
[29:22] Oh, so in the very first day, I just went straight to Studentenwerk to pay for my room, because they contacted me and told me that I have to pay in advance to reserve it, but I couldn't do it. So I emailed them and told them, "Please, please, please book this room for me. I really need it. I promise you I'm coming 2nd of October straight away, coming to you and pay." And I did that so that I will receive a key. I guarantee that, OK, I have my room. So after that, I have bought my SIM card and my Wi-Fi, I think, so that I can at least figure out, okay, what's going on nearby me.
Manuel:
[30:07] The Wi-Fi wasn't at the Studentenwohnheim?
Tatiana:
[30:10] No, it wasn't. You have to buy a router and you have to also pay for it separately.
Manuel:
[30:16] That's crazy. That should be included.
Tatiana:
[30:18] Maybe, maybe no, I don't know. Like you have really like Datenschutz, protection, so maybe they just don't want to use the same routers for everybody, I don't know. So, and then you basically just go through all the steps that anyone who's coming to Berlin going through, you have to register yourself, you have to receive a bank account card, you have to receive an insurance card, connect everything together.
Manuel:
[30:49] Someone yells at you in the subway, [Exactly!] you don't know what's going on, someone's rude to you at the Bürgeramt, just the regular ... [Yes, The regular thing!] The Berlin welcome package! Okay, so you did all that, and then I guess the semester started.
Starting University Life
Tatiana:
[31:07] Yes.
Manuel:
[31:08] You had already studied in Russia before. Was it different? Was there culture shock there too?
Tatiana:
[31:15] Yes, right straight away, I would say. Because 5th of October, so just when I came, our university professor, he wrote us, "Hello, everyone. If anybody's already in Berlin, I would be really happy to meet you. There is a grill party, just come by." And we came, five of us who already landed, and we were just standing and drinking beer with him. And he was actually the one who accepted my application. And he told us that, "I have I received 600 applications and I have chosen like 80 of them, and 40 of them, told me yes." And you're just talking to him and drinking beer, and he's asking yourself, "How are you, Tatiana? Tell me about yourself. Is everything all right?" I was like, "This is something that is not happening in Russia! You can't just talk with someone like this.
Manuel:
[32:08] How so? You ... It's ... it was ... It's more personal or ... ?
Tatiana:
[32:12] It's really personal. You will constantly have a distance, a little bit, with your professor. You wouldn't drink beer with him, for sure. [Yeah.] He could come to you and tell you also, "Okay, how are you doing?" You tell tell him, "Yeah, thank you, everything is fine." But this would be really, really, in a way, polite, calm. Like it would be so personal, wouldn't be.
Manuel:
[32:34] That's interesting. Yeah, I think both worlds exist in Germany. I think, depending on your university and your courses and your professors, there's definitely also professors that are more distant and will not drink beer with you. But I think it's very common ... your experience is very common. In fact, for me, I experienced that at university, but I even experienced it before at my German high school, so my ... it's called, gymnasium. At my time, at least, it went until 13th grade. So most of us turned 18 in 11th grade, sometimes 12th. So by the time we reached 13th grade, we were still in school, but we were already 18 or 19. And so that meant ... well, you can drink beer from age 16, but we were fully legal, we were 18. We could vote and our teachers started using the Sie with us, so the formal address. But at the same time, when we went on a trip - for example, we went on a trip to Berlin - with our teachers, with the school, and we went to visit a brewery and we all got wasted. We got so drunk and our teachers were there! They were participating! And I think some ... like if you listen to this, you know, from a country where that's not at all possible, then it's just really wild. And, yeah, in my university, most of the professors were also very close to us. And, yeah, we weren't per du or anything, like it was formal. But for sure, you know, when we celebrated the beginning of the semester or whatever and they would join, yeah, they would have beer with us.
Tatiana:
[34:24] Yeah, I didn't know how to behave. I just stood there and was like, "Yeah, everything's fine, thank you!"
Culture Shock at University
Manuel:
[34:31] Yeah that's that's good to know in advance that that can happen I guess yes yes yeah something that really shocked me at my first day at university was that so the way our university worked was in the kind of introductory week where we didn't have courses yet it was like orientation week they took photos of all of us for kind of the internal website so you there was an internal website you could see all of the people in each class and one of my professors apparently, took the time to learn everybody's name and it was the very first class with this professor and we were I would say 70, 80 people so it was a lot of people in that class. And someone talked to their neighbor and the professor just called them out by name and said, "Hey!" And she had barely said, "Hello." And we were all like, "Holy shit! She knows our names! Like what's what's going on?" And that really impressed me. [Yeah.] Yeah. Okay, any other culture shocks that you want to mention?
Tatiana:
[35:43] I think considering living in a dorm also, it works a little bit different. In Russia, I also lived in a dorm as a student, but I shared one room with my roommate. We don't really live in a room by yourself. So in here, when I came and I saw the room andit was really bright and had already all the furniture I need. And I had this German friend that meet me and he told me, "Wow, it really looks like a prison!"
Manuel:
[36:11] Your dorm looked like a prison?
Tatiana:
[36:12] From his perspective, yes. And I was like, "What?"
Manuel:
[36:16] Because it's like ... [It's really good!] ... one room? I mean I've seen student dorms - I've never lived in a student dorm, I had my own apartment - but they often look kind of sterile right? Like it's like a hotel room? [Yes.] Maybe a little bit more comfortable, but it's also they want to be able to clean it out quickly. [Yeah.] And it's not very lush, let's say.
Tatiana:
[36:40] It's not, but it's also like clean is good!
Manuel:
[36:44] Yeah, clean is good.
Tatiana:
[36:45] Yes. So it was a surprise for me that he told me that, "Like if you would see Russian dorm, you would be really surprised."
Manuel:
[36:54] And then you also told me that you started receiving your first grades and exams.
Tatiana:
[37:01] Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Manuel:
[37:02] You were very confused.
Tatiana:
[37:03] Yes. So our grading system in Russia is different. We only have four grades, which is 2, 3, 4, and 5. 5 goes for excellent.
Manuel:
[37:16] What happened to 1?
Tatiana:
[37:17] There is no 1!
Manuel:
[37:19] Okay, there's no 1.
Tatiana:
[37:21] 5 goes for excellent, 4 for good, 3 for passed, and 2 for not passed.
Manuel:
[37:27] Okay.
Tatiana:
[37:27] That's all. It's pretty easy.
Manuel:
[37:29] Who makes up these systems? There's no 1 in Russia, there's no E in America. We have A, B, C, D, F. It's also completely weird.
Tatiana:
[37:43] Yeah. And then after my first exam ... so you're registering everything, for PULS. I don't know if it's only for some university like this. We call our system, PULS.
Grading Systems Explained
Manuel:
[37:56] I haven't heard of that.
Tatiana:
[37:58] Okay. So it's where you're registering for courses. You also have to register for courses yourself. It's also a different thing from Russia.
Manuel:
[38:06] Right. It's not like school where you ... [There are mandatory course, yes.] ... get your schedule and you do what you're told. You have to essentially look at all the courses that you have to pass in order to get your degree. [Yes.] But it's kind of up to you - less so than it used to be - but it's kind of up to you when you take those courses. You can take them in the second semester or in the fourth or in the sixth. [Yes.] You just have to do them at some point, so you have to go and register for courses.
Tatiana:
[38:31] So you go and you register. You're choosing even the direction, kind of, of your education, because you can go a little bit ... for example, for my side, you can go a little bit of computer science or you can go a little bit of geography, like which you prefer. So I have registered for five courses, as was suggested, and after first exam I have received 3.0 I was like, "What does it mean? Did I pass?"
Manuel:
[38:56] What does it mean? Tell us.
Tatiana:
[38:58] I ... I'm still really confused! Okay, I know that 1.0 is the best. And 4.0, I don't even know? Did you pass if you received 4.0, or not?
Manuel:
[39:11] Okay so it's been a while for me but basically, in school, so before university, the school grading system is quite easily understandable because it's 1 through 6. 1 is sehr gut as the best grade. 2 is gut, still good but not the best. 3 is befriedigend, so okay. 4 is ausreichend, which means pass ... [Okay.] ... barely. 5 is mangelhaft, so bad. And 6 is ungenügend, which is like really bad, [Okay.] like the worst. And then in university ... yeah, I think it's almost the same system. So 1.0 is essentially the best that you can achieve. But then there's also in between 1 and 2, you can have a 1.3 or 1.7. It's not every point, it's basically those two steps: 1.3, 1.7. Then you have 2.0, 2.3, 2.7, 3.0. And then I think it stops at 4.0 at the university. That's the worst grade. So it doesn't go up to 6.
Tatiana:
[40:22] Yes. So when I received this 3.0, I was like, "Okay, so in Russia it would be just that I have passed, but it's kind of the worst that you can receive. And everybody told me, "Yeah, it's like, okay, you passed but it's not so bad." So I was really confused when I received it and even when I received like 2.3 I was like, "Okay, what does that mean?" [Yeah.] because of, what this three comes from?
Manuel:
[40:50] So I have to I have to ... I have to make a correction. It actually goes up to 5.0. So I just fact check this so basically it starts with 1.0 as we said, that's very good. And then there's 1.3 1.7 which is still very good but a little less good. Then you have 2.0, good, 2.3, 2.7. 3.0 is befriedigend, satisfactory, then you have 3.3 3.7. Then you have 4.0 and that's still ausreichend, still sufficient, so that's the passing grade that you're talking about. And then you have 5.0 which is fail. Okay, so that's how it works at university, essentially the same as in the school system except you don't have the 6 at the end. [Okay.] Okay, so you received a 3.0, satisfactory, and you tried to figure out if that's good.
Tatiana:
[41:46] Yes, and it took also, I think, kind of like one month for me to understand, like, because I don't used to receive bad grades. I was always a good student. And then when I came and I received that grade for the first exam, I was a little bit frustrated because I started to compare myself with everybody and then I was like, "Okay, what does it mean?" And I had to like maybe for one month to tell myself, "It's okay, Tatiana, you just came, this is your first exam, it doesn't mean anything, you have like a different system to learn, you never ... like English is not your first language, you're studying." Like I think maybe I put so much pressure on myself. And then, actually, eventually it become better after a while.
Manuel:
[42:32] I mean, I'm also just reading now: German grading can be stricter, compared to other systems like the US or UK. A 1.0 is often difficult to achieve and requires near perfect performance. Depends a little bit on the university, of course, but if it's a good university, if it's a good program, it's not like they're going to give those grades to you for free. You really have to earn them. So a 3.0 is really okay. And in a way, it's not that you have to have perfect grades on every exam or every course, because your Bachelor's or Master's grade at the end includes everything that you've done, but then also your final thesis is included and weighs quite heavily in that final calculation, I think it's like 20% or something of the calculation.
Tatiana:
[43:20] Oh yeah, for us, I think it was even [Even more.] 30% or 40%.
Manuel:
[43:25] So it does matter from the first exam on what grades you get, but since you're doing so many courses, so many exams, you know, a single bad grade doesn't kill your final grade. Like you can still have a very good final grade.
Tatiana:
[43:40] Yeah. And actually, when we arrived, our professor told us that, "I highly suggest you to take all the five courses from the very first semester." It was a really bad suggestion. I don't understand why did he suggest it from the very beginning, because we just all freshly came and we didn't know that, okay, five courses, it doesn't sound quite a lot. In Russia, you used to pass like 10 or 11 per semester. But here, the quality of that, it's really different. You have to do a lot. And then we all applied for five and then we all struggled in the first semester. And it's like,"Okay, never again. It's really too much."
Manuel:
[44:18] Yeah, that's maybe something to consult the higher semesters about because I think it differs, you know, in some universities. Some programs that might be very realistic. I remember my program, I studied multimedia production and we had to take programming, coding. And especially ... it was two modules, programming one and two. And the second one, everybody failed. It was just, we had to learn SQL and the professor also wasn't maybe the best at explaining it, and everybody failed, and a lot of people kind of pushed it off till the end. And you kind of have to be strategic about it, like maybe, you know, do it, but then only focus on that module. So I think with that, it's important to talk to the others that have done it.
Tatiana:
[45:03] Oh, yes. [And figure out what's the best.] This is also a different thing, because you are kind of mixed. If you're participating in the course, it doesn't mean that it's only your classmates who participate. And it means that also someone who already studied for a while also could participate. And then you can ask them, "So what is your advice?"
Manuel:
[45:21] If they pushed it, or if they failed. You know, in my case, a lot of people failed it and then they had to do it again the next semester. Yeah. Okay, so then life at university was one thing, it was difficult but still fun.
Tatiana:
[45:36] Yeah. So much fun. [Parties ...] We arrived, we were all internationals in our group. It was so much fun to ... just to talk about even our experiences, like, "You came from Argentina I came from Russia." "Where are you from?" "I'm from India." "I'm from Egypt," and whatever. And just to share. And we also had all the same problems that we have, coming through our registration, bank account, and everything. So it was really so much fun. And it was just the last semester before Corona started, so we enjoyed so much as we could. And then everything just become online.
Manuel:
[46:16] Then everything went online for a while. But you also did work?
Tatiana:
[46:22] Oh yes. I had to, because I had to pay my money back.
Manuel:
[46:25] How did you find your job.
Tatiana:
[46:28] I just asked my friends. I just was ... I think from the time that I arrived, I just constantly asking my friends, "Okay do you know something?" because I just didn't know anything how everything works. So I just asked, "Do you know the place for me to work?" And then one friend told me, "Yes, actually, my girlfriend is working in a hotel and they need someone to help." And this hotel was nearby my campus. So I was like, "Yeah, definitely I can do that." And I came, there was a manager, she spoke English. She said, yeah, it's okay, you can just work here as a housekeeper. And you don't need German for that," she told me. But it was a lie. [It was a lie?] Yes. [You needed German, after all?] I needed to communicate with my colleagues. And they constantly paired me with someone who doesn't speak any English, only German. So although you don't really need to do anything, you don't really need to speak, but you need to ask, and you need to understand what somebody's telling you, so ... But because I was so excited, it didn't matter for me!
Manuel:
[47:35] That's nice. Yeah, there's tons and tons of student jobs out there. It's also, you know from a company perspective, it's relatively cheap to hire students. The salary isn't usually that high and also the insurance is covered by the university, so it's kind of easy to hire students. I did various jobs during my time as a student and have really good memories about them, including one at the university itself. Sometimes you can find a job, either working for a professor ... Professors sometimes have the ability to hire one or two students to help run the classes, prepare classes. My job was actually in the student information center. So I worked there for ... I forgot ... 10 hours a week or 12 hours a week and essentially helped students that needed information and help, so that was also really cool. So there's lots of jobs. There's, you know, you can look on WOLOHO, I think we've recommended in the past, a newsletter to find jobs. And I think universities often have kind of a ...
Tatiana:
[48:46] Yes, they even have, I think, their kind of own portals where they also provide at least information where you can even search, if not an offer itself. Yeah.
Manuel:
[48:57] That's great. Yeah. Okay, then, we're almost at the end of your preparation doc that you prepared. And it just says, "February 24, 2022, a turning point in our lives."
A Turning Point: The War in Ukraine
Tatiana:
[49:13] Oh, yes.
Manuel:
[49:14] Do you want to go into it?
Tatiana:
[49:16] Yes, I think we have to. [All right.] Yeah ... so I arrived the one ... then there was a Corona time, and during Corona everything was online, and then like I kind of finished all my courses and everything and then I took a semester break, just one semester break. I decided, "Okay, I need to think what I'm going to write my thesis about." And it was exactly this winter semester that I took, and I become a little bit relaxed even, kind of, I would say. And then this news happened that the war started, and it was just a turning point.
Manuel:
[49:58] For those who don't remember this exact date, February 24th, 2022, is, of course, when Russia invaded Ukraine.
Tatiana:
[50:06] Yes. And then I just realized that anything can happen so quickly, and I can't do anything. That like, "What am I doing? Why am I just here in Germany and relaxed so much? So I need to put my life together. I need to understand what am I doing.
Manuel:
[50:30] So you felt guilty, in a way.
Tatiana:
[50:32] I felt guilty. I felt that I relaxed so much. I felt that I'm just wasting my time not doing anything, so I just remember that I booked also a programming course. Like we started a lot of programming but I didn't feel that I have enough knowledge, so I just booked another course and I did it so fast and I put ... Also, I think I was distracting myself with it, so that I can find a job or something related to my thesis as quickly as possible so that I will finish the university also as quickly as possible.
Manuel:
[51:06] Mmm. You kind of felt like, "Now's not the time for fun anymore. I need to pull myself together and do something serious."
Tatiana:
[51:13] I also froze a little bit. People have different reactions to shock. So my reaction was just silence and just shock, and just to be frozen.
Manuel:
[51:26] Mmm. Okay.
Tatiana:
[51:28] Yes.
Manuel:
[51:29] Okay. So with that, you focused on finishing your university, you wrote your thesis.
Tatiana:
[51:35] Yes, I ... Yes, I have found a student-assistant job at the Geoforschungszentrum in Potsdam. And because I realized that I actually have passion for machine learning, I always wanted to do something related to it, and this position was just perfect for me. And because I'd finished the course that I was doing, I also matched them really good. And we started to work together. My supervisor was really, really nice. And I just decided that I'm going to write my Master thesis with them.
Manuel:
[52:15] So that's a common thing. I don't know if that's a common thing everywhere. But often you can write your thesis as part of a job, as part of being in a company. And you kind of work but you also write your thesis about something that's related to that work, essentially.
Tatiana:
[52:32] It a little bit depends. For example, in my case, it was a research of my supervisor, so I couldn't write my Master thesis about his research, what he's doing. So I had to come up with my own idea, or in my case, it was their suggestions what something related could be done. So we kind of create the separate topic, so I couldn't do the same what he was doing.
Manuel:
[52:58] Okay. Okay. And then how did that go? How did the ...
Finishing the Thesis
Manuel:
[53:02] I remember writing my bachelor thesis was one of the toughest things that I've done because even though it's just a bachelor thesis it's actually not that big of a deal but I had so many books and it took me so long to come up with the structure and then I blocked two weeks where I just wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote and yeah, got it done but I procrastinated a lot back then and it took me a lot of energy. How did it go for you?
Tatiana:
[53:29] It went really well. I think I just dived into it so deeply for four, six months approximately, because I really loved the idea. I really loved the topic. And I was just doing constantly ... I was going to the library from Technische Universities. There is one in the Logische Garten ...
Manuel:
[53:49] I used to go there with my friend who's ... well, actually, she studied at TU, but we used to go to the library of FU. That's a nice thing. Like, you can go to any university library as a student. Even if you're not a student, you can, there's not, they're not checking. But especially as a student, you can just go to these amazing libraries that these universities in Berlin have. And it's such an amazing atmosphere in there. Where everybody's focused, and you have these great desks, and you're surrounded by books, and there's Wi-Fi ... that's the thing. You need to be a student to have Wi-Fi. If you're not a student, you don't have Wi-Fi.
Tatiana:
[54:25] Yeah, but if you're a student, you can have access to any library.
Manuel:
[54:29] Exactly. You can visit any library and the network, the Wi-Fi is essentially a ... it's called edoroam, and it works, I think, across Europe, really.
Tatiana:
[54:41] Oh, really?
Manuel:
[54:41] At least across Germany, but I think it's called edoroam because it works in at least some other countries as well, so you can literally use the Wi-Fi of any university or their library anywhere you go. And it's so nice to go to a library with your laptop and just focus and work.
Tatiana:
[54:58] Yes, yes. This is how I've done, I think, I don't know, 50% probably of my Master thesis. I was just going there in early morning because if you go a little bit later, there is no place.
Manuel:
[55:10] Oh, yeah, they get packed.
Tatiana:
[55:12] Yes. And then there are constantly students that just go in rounds and rounds, waiting for someone to leave, and nobody is leaving!
Manuel:
[55:20] Wow! Yeah, the university libraries are great, and they're open pretty late.
Tatiana:
[55:25] Yes, I think till 10, 11 pm sometimes.
Manuel:
[55:29] You know, when I studied in Mexico, it was a fancy private university that I didn't have to pay fees because I was an exchange student but the people who studied there without a scholarship had to pay a lot of money, and they had the fanciest library, like really fancy. And it was open 24-7.
Tatiana:
[55:49] Oh, wow!
Manuel:
[55:49] It was always open. I pulled some all-nighters there, and it was beautiful. They even had couches where you could kind of pass out for half an hour if you wanted to. I love focusing and working in a library. I feel like it's one of the best things about being a student. Forget partying and all that, just like focusing at the library is so great.
Tatiana:
[56:10] Yes. Yes. So I've been writing my Master thesis and ... I wasn't doing anything else except for writing. I really dived deeply. And my supervisor helped me a lot. So this is also a different thing from Russia because you have to present your thesis to your supervisor, basically, and he's also the one who's judging you. He's giving you a grade.
Manuel:
[56:38] You're defending your thesis. You write it, you turn it in, but then there's an oral exam where you're defending your thesis.
Tatiana:
[56:44] Yes, but you still defended it to your supervisor. Okay, sometimes there are still another professors.
Manuel:
[56:51] Right. In my case, there were two professors, my professor and an external.
Tatiana:
[56:55] Yes. In Russia, it would be like five different professors, and your supervisor is kind of on your side. He's coming to you after the defense and also representing your side. He would tell something like, "I know Tatiana for quite a long time. She was doing a really good job. She was focusing on her thesis for this amount of time. I suggest that you will give her a higher grade," something like this. Or they could tell that, "I don't know what this student was doing. He was doing everything by himself. I wasn't participating in it anyhow." But here you present this thesis that you wrote kind of in cooperation already with your supervisor because he was checking everything.
Manuel:
[57:37] They give you feedback. And that's also, by the way, something that some people don't know about, but when you write your thesis, don't just write it until you're completely done and then send it off. Write a first draft, send it to your supervisor, your professor, ask them for feedback. That's their job. You're not bothering them. Or maybe you are, but it doesn't matter, it's their job! And they will give you feedback at the early stage and say, "Hey, this is great." "This is probably the wrong direction." "More of this, less of this." And that will help you so much in the beginning.
Tatiana:
[58:07] Yes. So, and then you present them. And then it's kind of like a cooperation work. So how could they even grade you bad?
Manuel:
[58:16] Yeah, but I think sometimes they still do. I mean, [I don't know.] I think that's what the other professor is for, right? [Mm. Okay.] They're the checks and balances that it's not just like, "Okay, it's my student, so they're going to get a good grade." Like the other professor also has to agree. It's the same with the written one, right? There's two people that check it. It's your own professor that reads it and grades it, but there's a Zweitprüfer, and the other professor who wasn't involved in the process has to agree. And they, you know ... I think that's the checks and balances.
Tatiana:
[58:53] Yeah. So I think at the end of May - 24th, I think ... it was 30th of May 2024 - I have represented my thesis. I have received the highest grade. [Congratulations! 1.0?] Yes! This one I could understand!
Manuel:
[59:15] So that's interesting. So your Master's thesis... You received a 1.0, so the highest grade . And so then there's this big formula calculation that takes into account all of your previous grades from all the different exams and courses that you took, plus your Master's thesis. Run that through a mathematical formula and then you have an overall grade for your Master's degree, which in your case ended up being? [1.7.] 1.7, still an excellent grade, even though you had that 3.0.
Tatiana:
[59:48] Exactly. I had even worse. I had 3.3 at some point. But because Master thesis is, I think, 30-40% of a value among all the other exams, so, it took a huge part.
Manuel:
[1:00:03] All right. And then big party?
Graduation and Celebrations
Tatiana:
[1:00:05] Yes. It wasn't a big party, but it was a nice celebration just in a small group, I would say, because they would bring me a bouquet of flowers and we went directly to the restaurant after that with my supervisors to celebrate.
Manuel:
[1:00:19] Yeah. It's not like in the US here. We don't have the big graduation ceremony [Oh no, not at all.] with a band and throwing hats and gowns and all that stuff. We don't do that here. Usually, it's like a smaller thing at the university ...
Tatiana:
[1:00:34] Private universities do that by the way!
Manuel:
[1:00:35] Yeah, well that's what you're paying for is the show! But at public university, there's a ceremony, they hand you the certificate -maybe, in my case there was a student band that played a few songs but, you know, nothing super special - and then off you go you're done! And then you don't even get the ... I think you don't even get the final one. I think I got mine in the mail later. They didn't have it ready. They gave me like a fake certificate because they didn't have the final one ready [Aha!] and then they mailed it to me later.
Tatiana:
[1:01:08] In my case they they sent everything via post, Yes. I think there is a graduation ceremony in our university where all the faculties are coming all together and you have to apply for it. And you come and then there's going to be a huge photo or something, but it's not something special. It's just something you just come in to participate, to have this feeling.
Manuel:
[1:01:34] So you graduated?
Transitioning to Work in Germany
Tatiana:
[1:01:36] Yes.
Manuel:
[1:01:36] At this point, you're still on your student visa. Obviously, you're still here. And you told me earlier that you found a job after graduating, and you're now employed and living in Germany. What everybody wants to know is, how did you transition from a student to a working visa?
Tatiana:
[1:01:58] Oh, it was really easy. I think I got lucky, because usually how it goes is that you're applying for job-seeking visa after student visa, and this visa gives you opportunity to stay in Germany for one year and a half and search for a visa and also work at the same time. In my case, I found a job straight away after the university. So I didn't even need to apply for that visa. I just applied straight for Blue Card.
Manuel:
[1:02:29] And you were able to get that because you qualified ... I think the Blue Card you have to have had an education, higher education, and you have to have a specific minimum salary. And if you have that, you can apply for the Blue Card, which allows you to work anywhere in the EU. [Yes.] Okay, that's great.
Tatiana:
[1:02:52] So anyone who will graduate from German universities, they can stay here and they can work for any job until they're searching. And I think one year and a half is enough to find a job.
Manuel:
[1:03:05] If you get the job-seeking visa, does everybody automatically get that? No, you still have to apply.
Tatiana:
[1:03:10] You have to apply, but it's your right to get this visa. There is nothing ... I mean, you need to prove that you have some financials for that. So basically, otherwise you have financials, otherwise you are employed, and then you show them that you have working contract so this means that you're receiving salary every month. And if you do that, so ... Yeah, you just go through the process of applying constantly. It's also, I think, finding a job is another topic. It's also ... I think finding a job is also a job!
Manuel:
[1:03:45] Yeah, and it depends on what you studied, right? [Yes.] You studied something where people are highly sought after, engineers, programmers, you know, you'll probably have a job real fast. And then there's obviously studies that are still very valuable but where it's just much harder to find a job. [Yes.]
Final Thoughts and Advice
Manuel:
[1:04:03] So, summing up: if anyone's listening to this and they're just starting to think about studying in Germany, what's the most important piece of advice that you would give them?
Tatiana:
[1:04:19] Just go and study! Don't think about it too much. I think this is something that just changed my personality and my life completely. Because even if you have studied ... for example, in my case, I had already a Bachelor and I had already a Master, and I still came for another Master, so it's something that people would consider a waste of time, but the experience that I got from this, it's huge, it's enormous. The amount of people that I knew, it's enormous. The quality of education is totally different. I learned so much of new things that I would never learn before, that actually helped me to get hired at the end. So if you think that the blocked account is too much, or that it's scary or there is a language barrier or anything, it's not that scary after all.