Final Pieces of Advice

Okay, so it's been one-and-a-half years since our last episode.

Really?

I think that's normal, right?

I had hair back then!

Some time has passed, but I'm glad we're all coming back together for one final episode.

Now this should be, like, a jingle.

To my left is Jack, who has been on ...

It's been longer than a year and a half.

... one or two episodes before?

Yeah.

You are our ...

Back when it was a baby podcast.

A baby podcast.

It's still a baby podcast. Yeah, we talked about cycling, things like that.

I feel like we talked about the bank. Somehow I vividly remember ... you like choosing to pay for a free bank account!

Yes, and I still pay for that exact bank account.

I think about it maybe once a month. I'm just like, when I'm cycling around, like: Why?

Because I get a Metal card at the N26!

This must have been Episode 6. Bank accounts, phone plans, shufa, gyms, and cheap meals.

Oh, wow! Yeah.

To my right is our newest guest on the show, Sasha. [Hi-ee!] [Woo-oo!] Let's do some introductions. Sasha, tell us about yourself. Actually, could we share just quickly how we all came to Berlin and when, and kind of the origin story of what brought us here?

That's a great starting point. So I originally came to Berlin in 2019 after getting my Italian citizenship. And I wanted to get into psychedelic research. So I literally just googled: "psychedelic organization Europe" and then there was a psychedelic research institute in Berlin, and I applied to volunteer there. And then I ended up getting hired there, and then I ended up working there, so, yeah. [That's really cool.]

Wow! Yeah, that's a fun ... that's trippy! [Yeah, it's trippy!] Unexpected. That would be very interesting, to know what that's about, like what that's like. [But we don't ... ] [We need to know more ... about psychedelics.] [Oh yeah.]

Jack what brought you to Berlin?

Mine was less intentional, I think. That's ... I just ... My visa expired when I was living in London, and I had to move somewhere, and other countries require you to get a visa before coming, and Germany doesn't ... or didn't. I don't know if they've changed the rules, I feel like they probably would change it now. And so I moved to Berlin because of that, basically. And then it was always just going to be like one year, and thenmy work in London was like: "You can have a job there," and I was like: "Okay." And then it just kind of kept snowballing into over a decade. [Amazing!] [A lot.] Yeah. In 2012 I came.

Yeah, and that's when we met, because [Yeah.] I also moved to Berlin in 2012 [Yeah.] for my first job. And that's where we both met. [Yeah, really.] Back when you were a little baby.

Li'l boiby!

Little baby.

Li'l boiby!

And then if you've been listening to this podcast, you know how Jae came to the city, [Yeah.] because we documented the whole journey. You reminded us just now that the first one or two episodes were actually recorded before you came here, which is kind of nuts.

Pre-Berlin. When I was a babe.

And like COVID times.

Like ending of COVID.

End of COVID.

Like that was one of the first ...

Like COVID dragged here for a while.

That was like one of the first summers that we actually got.

So we'll get into all of these stories and topics. But some announcements up front. This is our final episode.

Aaah!

Because, I don't know, why? Why is this our final episode?

I think we've said a lot about our time and experiences in Berlin. And at some point, we just want to start new chapters, and I think I'm at a steady place in Berlin at this moment.

Yeah, I think we ran out of steam. [It's less exciting, a little bit!]

Yeah.

I think we said our piece about Berlin. We gave the tips that we had to give. We'll give some final ones in this episode, maybe. I still have this dream that someone is really enthusiastic about this podcast and this mission of sharing, kind of, what you would need to know when you move here, and will take this podcast over from us.

Yes.

So if you're listening to this and you think you have the time and energy to continue this project, get in touch.

Please.

Otherwise, it will obviously stay available as an archive, as a resource.

Wherever you find your podcasts.

Yes, and everyone.Berlin. I want to give some quick thank yous to some of the people who helped, specifically Valda, who meticulously transcribed every single one of our episodes, so there's an accurate transcript of every episode on our website. And then Goose, who also did some transcription and also managed our Discord community, which was small, but ... [Still there.] but still there, and nice, some connections have been made. And then everyone who supported us financially on Buy Me A Coffee. Totally fine if you cancel your membership there, for those that have it now, obviously. We're going to keep that link active, because we're actually still going to have some ongoing hosting fees to keep this podcast online. But yeah, thank you, everyone who donated.

Thank you so much, it means a lot.

And then ... Last episode! Does everybody have topics, or should I just ... I have some questions prepared for all of you, but, I don't know ...

Updates.

I have updates. [Updates.] Let's start with life updates.

So life is much more stable now than I think last time I talked. I have my own flat, y'all. I have my own flat. It's amazing!

How many years after moving here, did you move into your own apartment?

I got my flat April, 2025. I moved here April, 2022. So three years and seven flats.

I feel like that tracks. That's like the ... that sounds like a very average amount of time to get your own flat.

Yeah, which is quite long, but we did it. That's been nice, but I don't have a ... like, as always, I have a problem! I don't ... I can't shower at my flat at the moment! [Oh!] I pulled up the picture to show y'all: my shower glass shattered. [Oh my God!] [Oy!] Not because of me.

So there's a glass wall separating the shower from the bathroom.

Yes.

And it's completely shattered, and there's glass everywhere.

Yes. And it was because of like some water damage and like tiles was raising, and it smashed into ... it finally made contact with the glass door and then it shattered into a million pieces. And because I went Heimstaden, they don't do anything.

One of the companies that don't have a great reputation for being responsive.

They literally have a stopheimstaden.org website.

It's like Deutsche Wohnen, or something. It's like one of these massive "Oh, hah".

Exactly, exactly.

I mean, it's probably good that they might now have to fix the water leak that was causing the tiles to rise. I feel like that sounds like it could have ended much worse.

Yeah, but it's been six months.

Or will end much worse.

Wait, what do you mean? Like, you can't get another ... like, company?

No, because, I mean, there's like a process that you go through with them ...

Like, Heimstaden is the landlord.

Yeah. [Ah, okay.]

The company that manages the apartment. I know someone else who's at Heimstaden, and it's not great.

No, it's not great. So, we're going to have a meeting with the Mieterverein on Monday to see what I can do. But I've been showering at the gym [That could be fun!] in another co-working space that I have. Which, I mean, it's been a good, good, good positive motivation for me to go to the gym. But, yeah, that's been like the one, like, negative. But then everything else has been very ...

Do you work out at all or do you just go to shower?

I sometimes just go to shower if I'm lazy. But typically I go for at least 40 minutes, 30 minutes.

I feel like half the battle of going to the gym is just being at the gym.

Yes.

So it counts.

It does. It does. I check it off my list.

Yeah.

Progress, not perfection! But that's it. Life is steady. Like I finally achieved a little bit of balance from when I first got here, and that feels really nice. I feel like a normal human being. [Wow, congratulations!] Thank you.

Okay. Any other Berlin life updates?

Oh, for me, I feel like Berlin at the moment is super busy. I have a million abos, like ...

A million what?

Like subscriptions. I've got like a sports subscription, I've got Aikido subscription, so I'm constantly doing things in Berlin. It's a great place to have subscriptions! I'm constantly in the pool, constantly doing Pilates, then seeing a movie - but it's busy. Yeah, but now it's summer. I have the Yorck Kino abo, yeah, so, 10 out of 10, can recommend. Because when you have an abo and nothing costs any money, you just feel like: "Yeah, why not?" [Yeah.] "Why not just go to the gym and shower?" [Exactly.] But now I'm just ready for it to be nice and warm and summery.

Which it is.

Yeah, it is. But you say that like it's predictable, what do you mean, it's always like this exactly. And it will rain today, for sure. It was ... [Yeah.] It's exciting.

It has been a little bit cold, to be fair.

Yeah. [Yeah.] It just like varies so wildly and with no warning at all, and you can't trust the weather apps [No.] because they have, just ...

They don't even know.

They're all designed by people that live in California and have no clue what weather is! I'm just like, it's sunny all the time, right? You're like, this matters.

How about you, Sasha? How's your time in Berlin been?

Well, I mean, I've been pretty happy about the weather recently because my apartment is on the top floor [Ooh, I'm jealous!] so it becomes hell when [Oh!] it's really hot out, so ...

I really romanticize the idea of living in a Dach so. I'm like: "Surely the heat can't be that bad?"

Yeah, it's ... I don't know ... Let's just say I was spending some time researching one of those bed jets. Have you heard of these?

No.

It's like a jet that ... it puts air under your sheets. It's really stupid-looking, but apparently it actually cools you down, because I like to be cool when I sleep. [Yeah.] So ...

Do you have like a normal fan when you sleep? [I do.] Because I have to have a fan like even in the winter, basically.

Yeah, I have a normal fan. [Just for like vibes.] Yeah, exactly. It's normal. I don't know. I feel like I need an upgrade. But yeah, I mean, I've never been on this podcast before, so I don't even know like what's an update, you know! What's new? Like everything!

You don't know who I am or what I do!

Yeah, exactly. Everything I say is an update!

You shared when you came to Berlin, but you didn't share where you came from, where you were before.

Oh, yeah. Okay. So, I lived in San Francisco for five years before that. I'm American, if you can't tell from my accent.

How does Berlin compare to San Francisco? Is it as cool?

I think ... I think a lot of people make a comparison between the two for their eccentricities. So, for example, like a lot of poly people, that's definitely something I've noticed as a similarity!

Really? San Francisco's poly?

Yeah.

Like tech bros, poly tech bros.

Yeah. I feel like when people move here from another city, usually they're like: "Oh, you know, poly, what is this?" And I'm just like: "Been there, done that." Like, I already know what's up with this, you know? So, yeah, that's definitely something that's a common thread. Yeah, there's just, I noticed a lot of San Francisco people visit here too. I mean, I think the clubbing scene ... San Francisco has a pretty amazing party scene as well. It's very different, of course, but I think that's definitely a similarity.

Much more expensive, I would imagine.

Much, much more expensive. But I even think, I mean, the San Francisco housing, speaking of housing, like, I think it's actually better than here. It's gotten ... [Wild.] it feels like it's gotten so bad here, like I've met so many people that are like: "Yo, I've been looking for housing for two years," you know. [Mm, for sure.] And San Francisco was - at least when I was there - it was infamous for having a housing crisis, so ... [What year? When were you there?] I was there, 2014 to 2019. [Okay.] Yeah.

Interesting. That's also interesting that like the party scene there is ... I always imagined it was just like something that had been good like decades and decades ago.

Well you can always find somebody who says that, right? Like there's always going to be somebody who's like: "It used to be dope and now it sucks," right? [Yeah.] Like, for literally everything. [Yeah.]

I mean the the party ... the party scene is one of the themes I wanted to bring up today is, what about Berlin? I mean, I was ... I went to like two clubs once 10 years ago, and is the party scene as important, as cool as it used to be? Or is this ... are we also on the decline? Like I don't go clubbing ... [You all go. You go clubbing.] [No, I retired.] [You used to go clubbing. You go clubbing, Jack.]

I also used to more, for sure. I think it's ... I struggle to say that like it's changed. But also I have changed a lot, and also all my friends have also changed, you know. So I feel like it's a bit easy to just blame it on Berlin changing and the clubs changing.

In reality we're just all getting older.

Yeah, kind of. But ... they were better before! I think it really is just like, when it's new and exciting, it's new and exciting, and then it becomes not as new and still exciting, and then it's like: "Uuh, okay."

Has everyone been turned down at the door at least once? [Mmm!]

Never.

Oh my God. This past Sunday, this is a very on point topic, because I went to Berghain. I have been rejected from Berg ... I will even say this on a podcast - I'm like low-key embarrassed about this, but whatever, I'll tell the world - I've been rejected from Berghain seven times. [Wow!] Seven times.

Don't give up!

Now seven times. And this Sunday ...

How many times have you gone?

I've gone seven times!

Okay, so you've never got in.

No, no, no, no. Okay, so this is where the story ... So on Sunday, I had guest list.

And you got rejected?

Okay, so just wait.

So I had a friend get rejected who had guest list. So I was like, are you kidding me? [Yeah.] I got you this. Like, what are you doing?

Oh my God! I was so ... You know, before I had been rejected six times, and then I was complaining about it at this party and this guy was like, "Oh, I work there. I can get you guest list." And I was like, "All right, fine." You know, "I'll do this." And the night before, I had a fever dream about not getting in, like a nightmare. And like I was so anxious about not getting in for the seventh time, I tried on all these outfits. I called my friends. I was like: "Do I look okay? You know, I don't know, na, na, na, naa." And then I roll up there and I go to the wrong side, like not the guest list side [Oh.] because I don't know what I'm doing, I'm an ... apparently I'm a noob, even though I've lived here for years and tried six times to get in. And the guy looked me up and down. He was like: "Not today." And I felt like ... I was like crushed. And then I was like: "Oh, I have guest list!" And I said: "Okay, I'm actually, I have guest list." And he said: "Oh, okay. Go to the other side." And then they let me in, [Ah.] and I just ...

So you both got bounced and went in!

Yes! Exactly! That's why I say I got rejected seven times.

I was waiting for this eighth time to come. The math is mapping, okay.

Yeah, I still got the experience of rejection, so that was great. And then I go in and ...

Just be like, no.

I don't ... Maybe it is the whole getting older thing. I'm just ...

I feel so proud of my Berghain story, because I only went once, when I had just moved here in 2012, and I was literally in my street clothes which I had also slept in just hours before. And the only reason I went there was to say hi to someone in the queue, because I had a guest who also knew them, and they were like: "Yeah, we're in the queue, you can just come by and say hi." And then they convinced us to try to go in with them. And we all got in, in our street clothes. And also one of my friends had like a bunch of medically prescribed drugs in her purse, which they were like: "What is this?"

She was like, I need them for my ... [Everything can be medically surprising.]

And we somehow all got in. It was surreal.

And was it a fabulous time?

I thought it was great, yeah. But I'd never went back. [Yeah.] Like once is good.

I mean, for me, I kind of enjoyed it-ish, but I really ... They made us go inside at 6 p.m. which ... [Who's they?] The people! I don't know, the people that run this hellhole!

The garden was open.

Like, honestly. They made you go inside?

They were like ... because the garden was open, so we were outside, and then ...

Ah, yeah, the garden ....

And then the people - I don't know what to call them - the people that run Berghain ...

I thought you meant they made you enter Berghain at 6. I was like, I think you can go in whenever you want.

Oh, no, no, no, no. So they made us go indoors, and we actually ... like, I didn't understand why that was happening, because the sun was still out. And then after a few hours, I started to realize this place doesn't have windows.

I mean, [Kind of.] there are windows, but yeah.

On the stairwell.

And like in Panorama Bar, there are windows. [Are there windowns in the stairwell?]

Yeah, like the stairwell that goes towards the front of the entrance, you can see people waiting, and laugh at them for being in the queue!

The queue that you were just in.

And in Panorama Bar, they'll open the windows for like a quick second.

Okay, yeah, I saw that. With the music, [Yeah.] ... the blinds go up and down.

But it is like a prison.

It's like a prison.

It is like a prison.

And that's how I felt towards the end. I had to just jet out of there because I just felt so suffocated being inside.

But I think especially when you've been partying outside, it's harder to move, like transition, to partying inside after, I think. And because they have to close the garden at 8 because of the neighbors now, so that's kind of annoying.

See, parties aren't the same anymore!

They aren't the same. Exactly.

They aren't the same.

But no, I can't do outside parties [Really?] and then go inside. [Oh.] I leave. I can't do it, and I'm done. [Yeah, no.] I can do inside parties and transition into outside parties but not the other way.

And do we have any tips for anyone listening who has yet to try? [Just go in the clothes that you woke up in!] What have you learned, Sasha, in seven tries?

Okay, so what I've learned in seven tries ... I don't know if I'm the best person to give this advice but ...

I don't think so either!

Yeah, exactly! Maybe I should just shut up!

Get a guest list! [Yeah, yeah! Get a guest list!]

Get a guest list! Get a guest list! Like, only choose to go if you have guest list. That's, like, number one.

How do you get a guest list?

You wait for it.

What?

Your experience.

You have to wait for guest list.

Wait for guest list? What are you talking about?

Like, don't make Berghain a priority, and just wait for an opportunity to come.

And then eventually they just come. That's true. [Yeah.]

But that's the whole thing around Berghain is: don't make it a priority.

Don't make it a priority.

The people who get in are the people who don't try.

Yeah.

And I think, to be honest with you, because you could probably see my makeup right now, like I'm wearing these wings. Like this is my makeup look. I don't wear it all the time, but I happened to be wearing it when I went up to ... this time around. And, you know, I think that that was why I got rejected, actually. Because when I went in, my girlfriends that were in there, they looked at me and they were like: "Dude, why are you wearing makeup?"

What? [Yeah.] No, that's bullshit. [You can wear makeup there.] People get rejected all the time for no reason at all. These bouncers are just like men who like feel powerful and will just turn people away that look exactly like the people who are inside. [Yeah.] So you can't base anything off it, basically.

There's no logic behind it.

Just get guest list.

Everyone's got a theory, right?

Just get guest list.

Just a lottery.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

But I love that you tried, even when you had guest list. So you know that you wouldn't have gotten in without it! It's like, "No, I'm seven for seven. I have been, but seven for seven rejected."

Exactly! I just wanted the continuation of the story.

But you gave hope to people. You got rejected and you went in at the same day.

My friend who did this exact same thing, he ... I got him guest list, he was visiting from Australia, I was inside already, he was arriving, he went in the wrong queue, and he was like: "Oh no, wait, but I've got guestlist." And they're like: "Well, too bad." So I ... So that is really ... I was like: "Where are you? He was like: They bounced me." I'm like: "You ... you have guest list!" "I don't know. I went in the wrong queue." I was like: "I wrote it all down." Just like: Why is this so hard?

Okay. Do you all feel at home here? Or do you feel like you're guests still?

Next year I get citizenship, so ... [Wait. What?] Next September I qualify for citizenship.

Ah, you like start the whole process.

Yes. [Okay.] But ... manifesting.

Or do you have guest list?!

Yeah. I think then I'll feel extra at home. Right now I feel at home, but I did feel like a guest for so long. I think once you realize you have to just fight back and bite back and not take bullshit, and learn to kind of just stand your ground, it's easy to feel at home here. Because I think home is a place where you have to kind of, you defend your place somewhere. And once you realize that you can do that, so you don't have to like: "Oh, sorry." Or like, "Oh, no, I'm not trying to make a mistake." Then at that point, home is more of a concrete feeling to have. So once I got there, then I started feeling at home. And that was recent, like last ... almost a year. Almost a year.

Like when you got your place?

When I got my place. I was like: "I got home."

I feel like having, like, a solid address probably goes a long way to that feeling.

It does, it does. [For sure.]

Having Anmeldung.

Anmeldung, yeah.

With your last name on the bell. [So triggering.]

Do you want to stay here in the long, long term?

Oh, no.

Okay.

Brazil is calling my name.

Oh, Brazil! Okay.

How many citizenships are you planning to collect?

I don't think I need a deep citizenship for Brazil.

What's a deep citizenship?

I guess another citizenship. [Oh, okay.]

Just the flat one is fine!

I think if I have a German citizenship, that will get me far, I think.

I mean, it's a good passport to have in terms of travel.

Yeah, it is. And I would probably ... What I would want to do, ideally, is switch back and forth. Like have two places that are mine.

That's the dream.

That's the dream that most people have.

Like summer, summer, summer, summer.

Yeah, exactly. But I think for me, Berlin will probably be permanent home for at least the next four or five years. Because I just ... I really ... I look at my place and I'm like there's no way I'm packing this up. There's no way I'm going to sift through all of this stuff and then decide what ... like to get like ... Just because of this, I will stay at one place for a while. Unless things get bad here, but I don't know.

Define bad. No, I'm kidding.

Bad.

Please don't!

Are you both staying? What's the plan?

For me, a lot of it depends. Because I work remotely for the most part.

With a German company or an American company?

I do freelance. So, it's not like with a specific ... I have different clients.

But I think a lot of it for me depends on dating, actually. [Mm hmm.] [Interesting.]

Let's talk about dating, because the freelance work that you do is actually a dating business.

Yeah.

And then you're also, when you're not on business, you're also dating. [Uh huh.] And I feel like, I mean, we did a few episodes about dating in Berlin, and I feel like they can be summarized as: it sucks!

Yeah, I was about to say that. I was like: fuck dating in Berlin!

Yeah, but you're the expert, Sasha.

Yeah, I mean, okay, so just a little bit of background: when I was living in San Francisco, I was a professional matchmaker. So I am an expert, actually. [Hell, yeah.] When I was there, I was matching tech executives, basically.

With ... Like, with women they wanted to be with? With other tech executives?

Yeah, just with all types of women, depending on what they were looking for.

So the executives were all men. Or were there any female executives?

I ... so ... And I guess they weren't all like tech executives, necessarily, but that was just kind of the general trend. [The vibe.] I worked with women and men at first, but then I found that it was really hard to work with women.

But aren't you kind of working with both, all the time?

Yeah, but it's a different relationship when they're your client and they're paying you.

Oh, you were like matching the gay cabal that controls Silicon Valley?

Wait, what'd you say?

Did you work with like the gay cabal that like runs Silicon Valley? You were matching like Peter Thiel with like some crazy like other gay execs?

I got some NDAs. [Tim Cook!] I can't say anything.

You start talking, all the tech just dies.

Yeah, I mean, it was ... it was very ... I worked with all types of people, but yeah, like I said, the the tech executives were mainly like what ended up being, just because that's, you know,the tech center center of the world. But yeah. What was I saying? Women ...

That you didn't want to work with women for some reason.

Yeah. So the reason why ... I mean, I tried to work with women, but what happened was it was really difficult for me to keep boundaries with women because it ended up feeling like it was just like my girlfriend and we were just talking about dating, and so ... And not only that, but it's harder to recruit for women, as a woman, because I would have guys hitting on me when I was like trying to get them for other ... for my client. Does that make sense?

And how would you recruit people? So like LinkedIn?

I got people in ... I got people online, I got people ... I mean, you're basically just always out and about, so I was constantly talking to people, going to parties. I also was part of a matchmaker coalition, [Wow!] [It's like the UN!] so I networked with matchmakers all over the world and we helped each other. Yeah, it's like a whole ... it's a whole like industry, actually. So that was a big ... yeah, that was a big ... There were a lot of different ways of getting people, but a lot of it was just seeing people at parties and being like: "Yo, you seem awesome. I have someone for you." [Okay.] And when you ... when you can - this is something that I needed to learn with time - but when you can actually ... when you actually are picky with your clients and you actually like them, then you can authentically vouch for them. And when you're authentic in how you're talking about them, people pick up on that. And it's ... it's easy. It's like ... it's like butter. Like, it's like so easy to just be ... You're just like: "Yo, I know this guy. He's amazing, you have to meet him." And then the person's like: "Okay." You know? [Yeah.]

I mean these people are also probably wanting to find a relationship also, you know, like.

Exactly. Yeah.

So everyone's like chomping at the bit to be matched.

People are over dating apps, [Mm.] you know, and they're over the status quo. So yeah, anyway, that that kind of feeds into what I was going to say about what I'm doing in Berlin. So I did matchmaking for those five years. Then I came here, did some work in psychedelics. I still work in psychedelics. Figuring out my personal brand has been so difficult, because it's like: "Love and psychedelics." Like, I just feel like I'm like ...

It doesn't sound so difficult!

That sounds like a match made in heaven! [It sounds like a match.]

I mean, they are a match made in heaven, but also it's like, you know, it's giving hippie, you know.

It sounds like something that's hard to monetize!

Actually, you'd be surprised, at least on the psychedelic front. Actually, I mean, with matchmaking, it's definitely not hard to monetize. But also on the psychedelic front, I mean, that's popping off right now. But I can bookmark that for later if we want to talk about that. But, so now I've started with my co-founder, Clara, I've started this ... basically, it's like a new ... we have a signature dating event called LikeButter, and we're also creating a platform for people to host singles events themselves.

Like-butter.com is the ... [Yeah, exactly.] They didn't have the one without the minus? [They ... No! They didn't have it, no. [Dash likebutter.com?] We're still working on that. [-likebutter.com?] Yeah.

i-can't-believe-it's-not-butter.com?!

So the whole concept behind that is, basically, everybody ... So we curate the event. So everybody does an interview with us beforehand, and everybody applies as a duo with their friend, and so everybody comes with a single friend. [Mm, that's a good idea.] And the way that they do the interview is they interview on behalf of each other. So we basically talk to them individually and we're like: "Yo, why is your friend dope?" And we do the same with their friend. And then we accept or reject them as a duo. So everybody at the event comes, yeah, with a friend. So a lot of it is also about friendship as well as love. And then the theme is butter. It's very butter-related. I mean, where that comes from, you know, connections are smoother through friends.

Yeah.

Right? Like butter. And so we partner with this professional chef and we make these artisanal bread and butter tables. So imagine we're actually ... speaking about Berghain, we have a sculpture of Berghain made out of butter. [Ooh!] That's kind of our signature thing. [I love that.]

That doesn't feel like such a hard sculpture to make! It's like a square!

It's just like a square!

It's like an abstract sculpture!

Actually it's pretty hard, believe it or not. [Yeah. Is it big?] Well, working with butter is hard, because it has to be the right temperature. [Literally hard.] It's pretty big, you know. Literally! And we have these little people, you know, because there has to be a line, [Yeah.] so we put these little people waiting in line in front of it, and, yeah, I mean, we just have all these huge mountains of butter that are very fancy. You know, imagine like charcoal, vanilla, [Mm.] you know, walnut, lavender, [Ooh!] this kind of stuff. So it's very fancy. And then we just take people through a bunch of icebreakers and stuff.

How many events have you done so far?

We've done two events. And at this point, I can safely say that we have five couples that have come from only two events, so ...

Okay.

And how big are these events?

Are they gay, straight, queer?

So the reason why we're making this platform is so we can also speak to more different subgroups of people. But the two events that we've done so far are for straight people.

Gross!

Cause we're straight!? [Crooked!] [Crooked, exactly!] No, I mean, ah ... [Makes a great podcast! ] [Go back to San Francisco!] I love the idea. What about straight poly people? Are those invited?

You have to ... your like partner ... you get interviewed with your partner.

Oh, okay.

With one of your partners.

Great.

That's a cool idea though.

Thank you. [Yeah.] [I really like it.]

But then you hinted at ... at the same time, being frustrated with dating. Like you're building all this, it sounds like dating is great in Berlin. You just go to a likebutter event and you're set.

Well a lot of that comes froma frustration with it personally, so that's definitely like fueling the work in this way. Because, I mean, both Clara and I, we're so frustrated with the state of dating in Berlin, but also I can tell you from my matchmaking experience, that there's a problem going on generationally. Like this isn't ... You know, people like to think that this is a location-dependent thing, like: "Oh, dating in London sucks," you know, it's like: "Dating in Miami sucks," like it's "No dude, like there's a bigger problem going on, and there's a lot of reasons for that." So ...

Like what? What are the top three reasons? People just [Okay, so some ... ] People just spend ... people don't go out, they just ... everybody's just on their phone?

Yeah, the phone thing definitely plays a role. I think that the way that we think about connection is also messed up because of ... our attraction and connection chemistry is messed up because of online dating. Like back when I was matchmaking, actually ... so one of the really interesting things is I would interview ... I would set people up on dates and then I would interview both sides about how the date went, which is fascinating information [Mm.] that no one except a matchmaker has access to. [Mm.] Normally you only hear about your friend's side of it, right? But you don't hear both sides. And, I mean, the number one thing that I would hear from people is: "Oh, I ... " They're just: "I just didn't feel chemistry." And I think this is a really interesting thing, that we expect to feel chemistry immediately. [Mm.] You know, there's a threshold of attraction, of course, right? And if you're below that threshold, it's like: "Yeah, okay, I'm just not attracted to that person. It's just a no." So that's fair. But I think once you get above that threshold, it becomes questionable, and it's kind of like: "Okay, do you actually really know this person?" Like, we're so arrogant. We think ... and I think a lot of this also comes from having such an in-depth online life where we're constantly looking at people's profiles and swiping within like two seconds, like: "Yes, I know this person," you know. And I think you should trust your intuition, but I also think that you should be ... you know, carry a certain level of humility and understand that you're only seeing this tiny sliver of a person.

Completely, yeah.

And then the last thing I'll say on that is too, like, chemistry is something that can grow over time. There's actually a study that looked at this, that I think is pretty interesting. Before match.com came onto the scene, I think it was in 2000 or 2001, people used to meet via proximity, right? So they would meet through friends or work or college, you know, this kind of thing. And they would develop attraction over time. And you see this changed after online dating came onto the scene. And what they looked at in order to prove that change, was actually these mixed attractiveness couples, so if you like measure the attractiveness of somebody on a scale of 1 to 10, so before online dating, there used to be a lot more 3s with 7s, or 4s with 8s.

Has this not been banned? This rating people's attractiveness? Is this PC? I thought Zuckerberg made that unacceptable.

I think he made the website that did it.

He made the website that did it, yeah.

Yeah.

He will still definitely rate it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not an expert in the ... you know, [Science of measuring people?] the science of attraction necessarily, but I mean, you know, I think, you know, it's helpful to quantify [It is.] attractiveness. And actually, back when I was matchmaking, before I started my business, I worked at this matchmaking startup. And part of what we had to do is we would do intake on people. So we would talk to them about who they are, and then we would put them into a database. And then we would have to measure their attractiveness level, like on a scale of 1 to 10.

I mean, by measure, you mean make up ... you judge them?

Sorry, measure is not the right word.

No, no, no, but ... measure is the right word. It's more just like if it was based on a committee. How many data points were there? Was it just like you being like: yes, no, yes, no ... ?

No, but that's what I was getting to. So we actually had five other matchmakers cross-check, and a hundred percent of the time we were within one point of each other. So I do think, you know ... Physical attraction is confusing, right? [You can't rate it. though.]

It doesn't sound so confusing. If you were just within one point of each other, it feels pretty objective! [Well, I think ... ] You're hot, and you're not! [But it's like ... ] But then, I feel like what's confusing is how much it actually matters in a relationship, no? [Absolutely.] Like a long term relationship, not just like a one off.

And ... That, and also this whole philosophically-speaking, like, oh, you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which, I think, there's ... Even though I do think that there is something to be said for this more objective understanding of attractiveness, the whole concept of beauty in the eye of the beholder, like, that's also something that I think people need to think about when they, you know, think about attraction.

And also - like, in the eye of the beholder - but also I feel like there's a massive difference between the photo that comes across ... the beauty that comes across in a photo, maybe, that's like the conventional attractiveness, and then the beauty that someone radiates in real life, like the energy that they give off, the eyes, the presence, like those kinds of things are a little difficult to judge from a photo. And someone can look amazing in a photo, but then you meet them, and you're like flat, like there's nothing. And then the reverse is also true.

I think also because the culture now is so focused on the picture, you know. [Yeah.] Like if you photograph well, [That's what these apps do.] you have a certain level of currency, yeah, that does not have any bearing on you as a person, and so ...

Like there must be data on how much time people spend deciding to swipe left or right on Tinder. It's probably like a second or something, right? It must be super instant decision.

Yeah, it's super like lowest common denominator.

How should you properly rate someone? [What is the scientific method?] So , I'm curious to know, especially in a city like Berlin, where you have people who are so different and, you know, it's kind of hard to also know what your type is, but like, what is it, like, what should you be looking for in a particular person?

I think that people need to focus more on how they want to feel around someone as opposed to ... Have you ever seen The Materialists?

Yeah, I hated it though.

I hated it. But, okay, well, basically, it's this movie about a matchmaker in New York City.

Does it have Jennifer Lopez in it?

No.

Pedro Pascal is in it.

Oh.

But it's not good. [It's new, no?]

Dakota Johnson.

I think really new. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [It's Dakota Johnson.] I didn't see it. It did look horrible.

Yeah, I mean, I personally didn't like it either.

You didn't feel seen, by the portrayal? Like: "This is not what it's like!"

The director's previous movie, Past Lives, was really good. And then this one was shit.

The Korean one? The Past Lives was the ... Oh, wow! Then Material ... It just looked ... I mean, I'm basing it fully off a poster.

We're getting off our ... Dating. Why is it shit?

Okay, okay. Why is it shit? [Answer us!] Well, okay, no, but what I was going to say about The Materialist, I brought it up for a reason because in that movie, they show the perspective of the matchmaker in talking to all of these people. And I've talked to over a thousand people about their dating lives through my matchmaking work, you know, over five years, and I definitely felt seen, actually, because the way that people talk about what they're looking for, is very metrics-driven. It's like: "I want a guy who's six foot three plus," and everybody is so fucking boring. Everyone's like: "I want someone who's adventurous and they are emotionally intelligent." I'm like: "Yeah, dude, you and everyone else in town. This is telling me nothing."

I would like to be emotionally abused but really slow, so that I don't really notice! It's like: "Yeah, this is what I want!"

Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I ... So that's why I think it's important to have a better sense of like what's going on, how do you want to feel around this person. And also, like, we need to lead more. And this is something ... I try to take my own advice and it is hard, but leading more with presence and curiosity can actually take you a really long way. So it goes back to that whole, like, humility thing, you know. And it's really ... Yeah, you fit people into the boxes you create for them.

It's ... When you were talking about the interviews you had with each partner who was on the date, was there a lot of like parallels between couples? Like this is what ... you know, was it gender ... was it massive gender differences? Like this is what the men would always say, and this is what the woman would always say, you know. Was it similar across partners, or it was kind of quite broad?

It's hard to say. I think that the descriptions that women would give, tended to be more detailed. So that was interesting. But I don't know if that's just a by-product of the whole thing I was talking about, like girl-to-girl conversation, you know, like getting into the dirt. That could just be that.

And ... but they would like describe it in the same way? Like each of them would describe it in the same way? Or you ... it was like ... I don't know, it sounds like such interesting interviews to have. Like I would love to hear those interviews. [It's really interesting.]

You should publish them as a podcast. Did you record them?

No, I didn't record.

I'm sure it's past the time now. You can just open it up to the internet.

A lot of the clients I had were very high profile, so there's no way I could have.

In the A's.

So what do low-profile people in Berlin do? What's your top three tips?

What are the schmoes up to?

Get off the apps.

Yeah, well, but see, this is why we wanted to start a singles events platform that's actually cool, you know, because we think that singles events have so much stigma associated with them. And I totally get it, you know, it's like the status quo is shit right now, you know, like it's like they're not curated, anybody can roll up. Like, I ... we actually went to 13 singles events in preparation for building this whole thing and ... [Market research.] Market research. And like I said, the bar is in hell. Like, honestly, I mean, maybe one of those events was actually fun. And I mean, from a woman's perspective, it's just like a lot of the guys, when I was there, they just felt kind of desperate. And I mean, I'm only speaking from a heterosexual context. I just want to say that because that's all I personally know.

Queers are desperate too!

Yeah, my understanding is it's hard all around.

It's hard all around these days.

But I think that it's a missed opportunity, you know. It's like, what if you have the opportunity to be in a room with all of these people who you know are single, you know they're dope because they've been curated, and you know that they all want the same thing. Like for me, as somebody who's single, and like I do want a partnership, like to me, I'm just like ding, ding, ding, ding, like duh, that's what I want to do. I don't want to be on an app and whatever.

What is the format? Is it just a party? Is it just like a dinner party or you have like activities?

So like I said, we have our LikeButter event, which is like our signature event. And then we have the different events on the platform, which are varied and have like all types of things going on.

But the event itself is a dinner party? Or like a club? Or like a ...

So our event ... Is that what your question is?

Yeah.

So our event, it starts off with these icebreakers. We just have a bunch of different icebreakers to get people to talk in groups and also individually to each other. And then afterwards, it's an open space where people can ... We have these little interactive stations, and we've put a lot of thought into them, and some of them are based off of ... they're kind of like ... they're using the friendship as a way for people to get to know each other. So, for example, we have this thing called the wheel of duos. Like I said, everybody comes in a duo with their friend. And so they'll spin the wheel and it'll be like: green flag. And then there'll be a bunch of people standing around this wheel. And then you will have to tell everybody like: "This is the green flag about my friend." Do you see what I'm saying?

Is red flag an option? Do you have red ... Is red flag one of the things that could come up? Or it's like a positive, it's like a kind of a ...

We ... I don't know them off the top of my head, to be honest.

That is a no!

We have some ... We definitely have some ways. I think we have like a roasting option. Like there's definitely, you know, some ways, it's not all just like rainbows, we like to poke fun too. But yeah, so people can do all types of stuff.

So there's hope for dating in Berlin, basically: like-butter.com. And what about the queer scene? Like any tips on that front?

Do you want to go first?

I mean, I am ... it's not like actively not dating, but I'm not dating. I recently was questioned, someone's like: "Why not? And I was like: "Oh, I haven't thought about it in a little while." And now that I have thought about it I feel pretty good about not dating still, because I'm ... I mean, I'm not dating on apps, you know, like I use Grindr but not to date.

It's not to date.

Quite flatly, just like, this is not a date. We don't know each other. You know, like if all I know about you is pictures and we've spoken online, I can be friends with literally anyone online. You know, it's like, as can anyone. You can ... What you get from an online conversation is what you're reading ... like yourself, you're injecting all of the tone into the other people's messages, so it's based purely on how you feel. And if you want it to be that they're into you, you can read it that way. So I don't like going ... using the apps and things like that to date, but I have ... am open to like meeting people like through proximity, kind of, and that's been also fun, and good, but not like ... I wouldn't say I'm like dating.

Yeah me neither. Yeah this is a year of selfish time.

I don't think it's selfish. I think it's more just, like you also have to be okay with being by yourself, I don't know. A friend asked me the other day like when was the last time I was really unhappy, and it was when I was in a relationship. [In a relationship!] Yep! I've never been happier! It's like, I was actually ... it's like: "Ah, I remember that really bad feeling [Yeah.] and it was in a relationship." [Yeah.] So ...

But I think it's also the opportunity ... like valuing being single in a city like Berlin where there's all these open relationships. There's all this ... complex relationships, not in the good or bad way, but just complex relationships. It's sometimes nice to be seen, though, to kind of take a step back, and - referring back to what you were saying - figuring out what you kind of want in this type of pile. Because I think I came into it with just like: "Yeah, I'm just gonna go for everything," and I was like: "Whoa, this is like a lot for me," because I didn't really like take a moment to actually figure out what it is that I want, or stabilize myself to be interdependent. In a city like Berlin you can really be dependent on anything very quickly. It's a city of addiction, in any types of ways, of people, of consumption, and stuff like that. So to actually be able to be single and be by myself for some time is really nice, to actually see what it is that I want or don't want or don't even care about. And it's like ... I don't know, it's a very, it's more ... I don't know, it's more peaceful. I also ... I have not been so upset since my ex-relationship, so it's a lot more stable.

Yeah. I don't know, I feel quite whole [Yeah.] in mylife without a relationship.

I think that's the prerequisite. Like I'm happily ... very happily in a relationship, but I'm also ... I also feel whole [Yeah.] when I'm not. [Yeah.] [Completely.] And I kind of feel like it's like Berghain, like if you want it too bad, you're just ... it's just not ... you know. You just kind of have to let go and not really care, and then it'll happen.

If you even want it. Also, queer people are messy.

Everyone is messy.

Everyone is messy.

We just think it's just queers because that's what we're playing with.

But the straights need help as well.

Like figuratively or literally or both?

Both. [Oh, okay.] But, like, so complex, so ... like every time I meet somebody, they're in an open relationship or something like that. And I was, too, when I was dating. But it's just ... The kindest way I can say it, is it's complex. And I'm not looking for complex, I'm looking for simplicity. And in a city like Berlin, it's very hard to find simplicity. Everything is so ...

I wrote down the summer and the winter. I mean, you alluded to it. We talked about this so much on this show. Is there any more advice or thoughts about the winter?

Don't be here in the winter!

Don't be here!

The perfect thing to do is ...

Leave!

Yeah. Get the hell out of here. I would say, for the last few years I've had holidays in like February. 10 out of 10, can recommend.

Yeah.

Because what makes January bearable is knowing that actually I'm going to be somewhere hot and sunny in just a couple of weeks, it's like nothing. And then February is so short that if you take a little bit of holiday, it feels like a whole month. [Yeah.] So it's like, this is great! So, yeah, I can recommend ... [Leaving in February.] ... not being here in the winter.

I went to Hurghada, Egypt, for my birthday. It was in mid-February. It was just four days out, but whoo! Where I tell you I have been on a high since then, because just taking a step back and actually getting sun is so important. And there's actually a lot of cost-efficient places that you can go, that aren't too far from Berlin. Hurghada was one of them. You can go to Morocco. You can go to the Canary Islands. You can go to ... Where else is a good place to ...

I mean, I went to Brazil. [Brazil.] It was not cheap. But it was a lot of fun.

Either cheap or fun.

Yeah, exactly.

What are the months? Like can you put a date on when does it get bad and when does it get good again?

I would say it's good until Christmas, because then ... or like New Year's, because then it's like: "Ooh, Christmas fun, there's lights everywhere." And then it gets worse, objectively, but they turn all the lights off. [Yeah.] And you're like: "Oh, that's wrong!" And then you need to ... I would say you need to get out by February.

By February at least.

Any longer, and it's ... you've waited too long. And any shorter, you're going to come back and it's going to be a problem still, after.

And the winter lasts longer than you think.

I mean, it was winter like last week.

Yeah, exactly. Like, it's like, it really is like eight months out of the year, it feels like.

Yeah. R.I.P.

And the months where it is actually summer, it's not like together.

No.

There's like many winters within the middle of the summers, and things like that. So it's very unpredictable.

So be gone between January and March, and come back April, excited, yet hesitant.

But you should also go on holiday in, like, late October.

Yeah, yes, yeah. That's true.

I mean, you're pretty much always gone. I don't know how you do it. I think you should ... I push summer into like end of October. 10 out of 10, can recommend. Greece is - thinks, like obviously we don't want the heat death of the earth - but Greece is still good.

I'm going to Greece for the first time in a couple of weeks, actually.

I can only recommend it.

So what do you recommend?

Everything. [Everything. Okay, great.] It's great, the food, everything is good. [Yay!]

You're going to Athens?

Yeah I'm going to Athens.

We went to Athens a few years ago. It was amazing. Favorite place.

I keep hearing it's the new Berlin, actually.

[It's been the new Berlin for a little while.] It's been the new Berlin for a little while.

It's pretty busy now, Athens. I feel like there's probably now somewhere that's like the new Athens! [Yeah, yeah, yeah.] It's like we're not even there anymore, you know. It's like we're several cities removed from like the new. But no, Greece is great. And Athens is fun.

It's really good there. The food is really good. The prices are reasonable. The people are very nice. Very nice. You'll have a good time.

Oh, I'm so excited.

Nice.

But you're just doing Athens. You're not going to go to an island.

I'm going to go to some islands too, I think.

How long do you have?

Just because I have a vacation of nine days.

Okay.

So I want to do like two or three days in Athens or something.

Yeah. [Yeah.]

Just like roll up.

Yeah. That's the way to go.

That's the way? Okay.

Yeah. That's a good ...

Okay, great.

You don't want to be in Athens the whole time.

Yeah. No, no, no, no. I also heard it's really hot.

Yes.

Super hot.

Yeah, yeah. And actually in Athens, because the heat can't escape.

You have to travel to the water. It's not like you can just walk to the water.

It's not like Marseille. Marseille, like the city's like at the beach, whereas in Athens it's a bit of a trek. Especially if you want to go to the nice, not like beach-clubby beaches. [Yeah.]

What do you mean by travel to the water?

You have to call an Uber to go to the beaches.

Or like you take the train to the end of the line, [Yeah.] and then you take a bus.

Got it. Okay.

But you're not going to go to the beach when you're in Athens. You're going to go to the beach when you're on the island.

You could. It's nice. No, there's fun. There's like nice, there are nice areas to swim.

There are nice areas to swim, yeah.

There are, for sure. And it's worth it because even a few days in Athens, it's like you need to be in the water.

Well, unlike here, they have AC.

That's true. [Yeah.]

Which I'm looking forward to.

We don't need that unless we live under the roof!

Yeah!

Okay. So summer, winter is settled. Is the summer that great, though?

Mm. No. [... the Berlin summer ... ] [It used to be. It used to be.] Only if you've experienced the winter and then you're like: "Oh, we're like ... like traumatized people who will accept anything nice, you know."

So there's nothing special about the Berlin summer either. [Why are we all here?]

It was. It was.

Yeah, good question. The clubs!

Why are we here?

It just kind of happened. Everyone has to be somewhere.

It's called sunk cost fallacy.

Everyone has to be somewhere.

Yes, because you come here and then you're here for three years. And then you're for five years.

Exactly.

And you're like, oh, all of a sudden you hear yourself telling people: "I've been here for seven years." And you're like, wait, what?

That's literally ... Like, we've had several guests on this show who came here as, like, a tourist and then just stayed. And like five years later, they're still here. This is like a legit story that happens to people.

Why do you think that is?

I mean, there's just something to the city, you know, it keeps you engaged.

I think there's something ... I feel like Berlin is a little bit like dating apps, where at first you're like: "Oh my God, this is amazing! Possibilities - endless. All I have to do is just at the tip of my fingers. It's so great." And then after you've been here for a little while, you're like: "Oh, this is a bit ... "

But you're still on it.

I know, I've seen all these people before! You're still on it, because what else are you going to do? And it's just like again and again. It's not until you're like: "Oh my God! I actually don't need this," that you then have to like kind of step back and be like: "Yeah, what the ... what the fuck what am I doing here?" But in a good way. It can be ... then you get ...

It's a comfortable discomfort. That's my thesis. It's a comfortable discomfort. It's like it's like you ... At first getting into it is uncomfortable, and then you, kind of, like you get your Anmeldung and you get everything set up. And then like you finally make friends, and then di di di di daa. And then like you find ways to get around the winter and whatever, right? Like you figure it out.

It's very trauma-based, I think. [Yeah! Yes!] When they treat you so bad to do basically nothing. When you've done that nothing, you're like: "I'm someone, something. I have this piece of paper."

But the bureaucracy has gotten better. You can get Bürgeramt appointments same day now.

Oh that's crazy.

That did not used to be the case.

Yeah how did they do that?

Thank you, CDU.

Okay, let's ...

Probably.

Let's chill. Let's not go crazy.

Okay, let's talk about psychedelics.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

What do you want to know?

That's a thing in Berlin, I've heard.

Can you define psychedelics? [Yeah.] Like, what psychedelics have you been researching?

So, there's different definitions for psychedelic. If you want to take the neurochemical definition, it's substances that work on the 5-HT2A receptor in the brain. So classical psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin, ayahuasca, mescaline, those all act on that receptor. But you can also look at it in terms of the Greek root of the word, which is mind-manifesting. And if you look at it from that perspective then the definition gets much broader, and you could argue - and some people do argue - that things like MDMA and ketamine are psychedelic, even though they don't act on that receptor. Yeah.

And they're a thing in Berlin and San Francisco, I imagine.

And so, but your research was purely based on the ones that act on those receptors.

So, I don't do research. I do ...

I just do them.

I just do 'em. I do field work. [Research!]

"I am a participant!"

Yes, exactly!

People are researching me!

N-of-one! No, I do strategic communications for psychedelics, so as you can imagine ...

Like acid? Do you like communicate for acid like ...

Acid, no. I got ... That's all you gotta know. I'm just out here communicating. [Do it. Do it.]

Just little by little. [This one's better!] Start little, take long breaks. What is the ... Who is ... Who is acid, like who's big acid? Like what is the ... What is this reality like that you're talking about?

Yeah. [Yeah.] Okay, so it's a whole industry, actually and that's why I work in it. There's money in it, there's things happening ...

Where is this money coming from?

All types of places. I mean, earlier on it was from small donors like ... or not small donors, actually big donors. [Consumers. They're called consumers! There are slash consumers, of course! But those are the people who were initially funding the research that was going on. So there's this organization called MAPS. And for a long time, they were pushing MDMA research for PTSD. And a couple of years ago, they got rejected by the FDA. But the whole movement is basically to ... A lot of people are trying to get these substances into the healthcare system.

MAPS is the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies.

And was the Berlin study ... I feel like there were like Government studies in Germany. [Yes, actually ...] Or in Berlin for MDMA, and ketamine, actually.

So I worked ... I didn't work on the study, but I did work with an organization called the MIND Foundation, which was working with Charité and the University of Central ... the University of Mental - Oh, God, I can't even talk right now! What was it called? - The Central Institute of Mental Health, Mannheim. Those were the two study centers for the first federally-funded psychedelic study in the world.

With MDMA?

In Germany. With ... No, with psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression. So actually ... I want to say that again: the German government was the first government in the world to fund psychedelic research.

Was this under Merz or a different chancellor?

I feel like it was under Merkel. [It was. It was under Merkel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was under Merkel.]

Yeah, she was cool.

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, so there's stuff happening in Germany. Actually, I just came back from a conference a couple of weeks ago, and it's really interesting what's happening here in Germany, especially from an American perspective. Because analogs are legal here, so you can get LSD ... [What is that?] It's basically where they add a molecule to a substance in order to like ... [Make it legal.] They manipulate a substance slightly ... Yeah, exactly. It helps people like ... I mean, I think ... I don't know enough about this to say this.

THC did something like that. [Huh?] THC did that in like Texas. Like there was like a legal weed you can buy.

Yeah, exactly. Like, basically, the idea is you change the molecule so that it metabolizes as the substance. I don't say that with 100% confidence, so maybe look that up, fact check-that. But the molecule ...

We'll send it to our team. [Yeah, exactly!]

"Please fact-check everything that I've said. My name is Nutjack."

Yeah. But in Berlin, or in Germany, they have things like LSD-1 ... [Plus.] Yeah, they basically add a number to it. [Prime. LSD Prime.] LSD ... 1P-LSD was at one point. I actually don't even remember what the most recent one is.

I always thought it was a scam when I saw people selling it.

It is ...

Like shops.

... I would not describe it as a scam. To say it's legitimate is true, in the sense that it's legal.

Okay.

However.

I mean, I would say it's legitimate if you trip! I'm not basing the legitimacy off legality, I'm basing it off like if I bought it in a shop and then I was still able to be high on acid or like on LSD. [Yeah.] If that happens, that's amazing. But like ...

That's what's happening here.

Wow! I've seen the signs, but I just didn't believe them. [You never went in?] [It's for real.] No. I was like, sure babes, whatever you say. It's like micro-micro dosing, aha. And then ... Oh wow! So I should be more open to these things.

It's really crazy. You go in there, you talk to them, and they can't tell you, like you can't talk about consuming it. So they'll just be like yeah ...

Buying it for a school project.

Yeah, exactly. Like, would you like it for research? To do research? Whatever that means, right? And then you can, like, get it. But what I was going to say is, at this conference it was crazy, because, like I said, it's legal. So they had all these people just, like, selling all of these analogs of all types of substances. They had 2C-B-G, which is like an analog of 2C-B. Like I said, they had a bunch of LSD ones. They had some psilocybin ones. Like all types of ... [That's cool.] [That's crazy!] [That's cool.] And they're just selling it at the conference.

I have a friend who does like research into ketamine and depression, and like during like psychol ... like therapy sessions and stuff like that, and they said it's crazy.

Yeah.

But like amazing. Like it has like ...

There's a good documentary that I can link in the show notes about this, where there is like an 80-yearold woman and she has had treatment-resistant depression for decades, and then this ketamine therapy is the first thing that works for her.

You know they're doing ketamine therapy in Germany/Berlin? Did you know this?

Yeah. I mean, this is why my friend does it in Berlin.

Yeah.

Did you know they're also doing psilocybin therapy?

No.

No.

So this is something a lot of people don't know. This is a more recent thing that happened last summer. They legalized it for compassionate use. So compassionate use means like last-resort situation, so people whohave treatment-resistant disorders, or people who are like terminally ill, basically, like they have like end-of-life anxiety, this kind of thing. They haven't treated that many people. The last I heard, I think, it was like 20 people they treated or something, so I my understanding is it's pretty difficult to get into, and there are only so many centers that are doing this. I don't remember like how many there are, but it's happening. So ... yeah.

It's really crazy. But in a great way.

And would you say it's like Berlin-specific, or is it just happening everywhere in Germany?

It's in Germany. Yeah.

Like all this research?

There are certain like centers that are doing it. Like you have to have certain pre-qualifications. It's not just like, just because you're a psychiatrist you can do it, [No.] I think.

But there's also a lot of research happening in the States now with MDMA for ... What is shell shock called now? Like ... [PTSD?] PTSD and stuff.

Yeah. Actually, do you know about the executive order that happened recently?

I do not.

Okay. So actually, this one's really interesting. I wrote about this for a newsletter recently. In April, Trump signed an executive order to fast-track psychedelics on a federal level for research and for [A broken clock!] therapy.

A broken clock! It's like, get me right, twice a day! It's like: How?

And if you actually watch the video of this, like it's so crazy. Like Joe Rogan played a huge role in this happening.

Was this the one where he was behind ... ?

Yes.

Okay.

Whoever wrote this simulation is on some good shit.

It's like Kim Kardashian signing that thing for prisoners being released. You're like: What? What multiverse are we in?

Okay. Back to Berlin, Germany.

Consumption. Oh, yeah.

Oh, we're still talking about drugs?

I mean, talk about sobriety.

Oh, yeah. Let's talk about sobriety.

I do sobriety. I don't do drugs anymore. I don't drink alcohol. I don't do anything. It's a very, very nice life. It is something people can do in Berlin. It's very possible.

For sure. I just did a meditation retreat, in Berlin of all places but on like the outskirts, and I had like near-psychedelic experiences on that retreat, like eating the food there, just high on mindfulness and awareness, was similar to eating food on LSD. Like it's amazing.

Yeah. I've realized that there's a lot of different ways to get this quote-unquote high from life that ... Because I mean a lot like ... And I like what you're doing is way more research-based, but a lot of the times how people use drugs in Berlin are not research-based.

There's a lot of abuse.

There's a lot of abuse, a lot of recreational, a lot of misuse about how drugs are. So people aren't probably even getting the best out of drugs as they probably could. And I think that's a big reason why I kind of wanted to switch to sobriety, because it was like there's no actual guidance on how to consume drugs properly and which drugs to take, which drugs not to take. It's always just, okay, let's just go to a party and do lines. And that misuse can get into a spiral for some people. I've seen so many people get lost into that. And I was like: "Mm-mm, I don't want to get there." Yeah. So like sobriety is something I've found is quite a new topic in Berlin. Like there's even sober parties that are going on now. There's one called tracey sober, it's a really fun party. There was also one called Lunchbox Candy, but Lunchbox Candy got changed to tracey ...

I was thinking like Lunchbox Candy, I don't think it's sober!

No, but they had a sober party. [Ah, okay.] They had one that was called Sugar Free. [Ah!] So there's a lot of these sober opportunities to still like have fun and enjoy your life, but without the use of alcohol or other substances and stuff. And it's a very like great life.

That's cool. Berlin really has it all.

Yeah, it really does. [Both extremes.] Both extremes.

You're either high or sober! There is no middle ground!

But you'll find your community. Like there will be other people doing it with you.

Yeah. I think that's the cool thing about Berlin. It's like you get ... kind of get the best of both worlds. And you get this really research vibe with consumption, but you also get this sobriety vibe with like, in finding this right balance for yourself. I think that's like a big tip I can give people: find your balance. [Mm.] Find what really works for you. Because it is very easy in this city to not have a balance, and if you cannot find your balance, you have potential to fall off very, very, very, very, very hard, fast and quick. Yeah.

Can I say something to that? So, because you're talking about this, is sort of like a binary, right? In terms of like being it's like substances or being sober, right? And I was just thinking about what you were saying about meditation, and something that is part of at least one of the strategies that I've learned in talking about like psychedelics, is viewing the psychedelic experience as something that is both, can be both pharmacologically induced or non-pharmacologically induced. So things like meditation experiences, things like breath work - which also there's a lot of that in Berlin - [Yeah.] like there are different ways to get high. And in that sense, it actually makes me think of like a third definition of psychedelic, which isn't like ... It's something that I've more talked about with other people in the field, it's not really like an official thing, but it's just a sense of aliveness. Like a return to a sense of aliveness. So I think that's like another lens through it, [I love that.] to see this. [Yeah.] You know, because you can have a psychedelic life and be sober.

Yeah. Oh, I love that! I'm taking that with me.

I wanted to ask you all about kind of integrating into Germany. Is there anything that you have ... any specific thing that you have very much integrated into? Anything that you refuse to integrate into? Any ... ?

The language!

German!

Okay, good. I'm not the only one!

Ironically.

Wait, how are you going to get citizenship? [This is an English speaking language podcast.] How are you going to get citizenship if you don't know the language?

If there's a will, there's a way. [You're just like 'Schmetterling!'] I work for a company that teaches German. When the time comes, [Oh, that's real, that's real.] I will use my company to learn German.

You won't. You won't. It doesn't happen.

I mean you've never taken many courses but you've learned German through osmosis, I think.

Through osmosis. But I've been here since 2012 so it should have been ... Osmosis is a little harder.

But it is a strategy, to just be here for a long time and eventually you'll just kind of start understanding things.

Yeah. I mean, understanding, for sure. [Speaking ...] Producing German from within, it does not just it does not just come out of nowhere. Yeah, my German is pretty bad. It's like pretty interesting when I think about how little integration I've really made and experienced in Germany and still have a great time, 10 out of 10. Like everything ... The subscriptions I was talking about before, like the Yorck Kino, they have all the best movies. They're all English, like which movies, you know. It's like they do have German movies, but you don't even notice it.

They even sometimes offer German movies with English subtitles.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they definitely do. And then all of the sports classes that I do, like ballet, pilates, like circuit training, all these things, they're all in English. It's crazy! Like I ... If you ... like ... Assimilation? No! People will like look at me and think: "Oh you've assimilated," but I'm just white! Like I'm actually ... I'm actually not. I don't have a toe in German culture at all, except for maybe drinking sparkling water. I will never understand the warm beer that German people drink, like it drives me insane. And I'm ... Yeah, it's really interesting. Like I ... If I didn't look like me, people would be like: "You do need to assimilate."

Hold on. Isn't the sparkling ... ? I find the sparkling water extremely confusing.

What's confusing? How great it is?

What the hell is Classic? [I don't know the names.]

Okay, the naming things ... The names ... [It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't ... ] Classic water is flat water. [Yeah, exactly.]

No, Classic is the sparkliest.

Yeah, which makes no sense. I'm here for you, but ... [I don't get it.]

Classic means high. High sparkle. High sparkle amount.

Anyway.

They should have Level One, Level Two.

But it's like a ... It's a little bit too much sparkle. Like whenever I drink that, I'm like ...

Okay, you lost me there. You lost me there. Classic is the only level. Everything below that is just an open bottle of Classic, but for a short period of time, you know. It's like, if you buy ... [There's Medium and Classic.] And there's also Mild, [Ah, Mild.] which is ... like it was once Classic and they just like didn't put the top on quick enough. [And they just let it sit!] [Yeah, they let it sit!]

Just like a flaccid, you know!

Which can also ...

That's what it's giving.

No. I would say ... I don't want to knock a flaccid ... flaccid penis like that. There is absolutely no use for Mild water. Medium, also not. But flaccid dick can be nice also, so don't drag it like that.

Any other things you've assimilated into or not?

What have I assimilated? I feel like I've assimilated the on-time behavior, which I'm very upset about, because I'm usually one of the first people to be places.

I feel like I was there already. I don't want to give Germany credit for that.

I feel like I was there too, but being here, I'm sometimes more on time than my German friends. And I'm like: "Where are you?"

I mean, that's crazy!

Also, German friends. It's like, what do you mean?

Not that many, but there are a few. [They are friends that you have in Germany.] [Yes.] [Yeah.] Yes, that's different. But the thing is, you asked the question of have I ... like what have I assimilated in Germany? I still say I don't live in Germany, I live in Berlin. And those are two different things, two different things completely. Because, I mean, even a lot of people ...

I mean, I am reminded of that, every time I travel to another city. I'm always like: "Wow, everybody's so nice in this city! What is it about this city?" And then I make ... do this ... It's like the same experience. Any city I go to that's not Berlin, it's like: "Oh, is Berlin just really rough and unfriendly?"

Yes, it is.

That's interesting.

Yes. Yes.

How about you Sash? Have you assimilated?

The language thing, ditto. I haven't ... I took like A1 classes for a little bit, and then I was just like, I just ... I don't know. It is really easy to just be here and not learn it. Have I assimilated? I think, outside of that, yeah. Like I've had ... I feel like I've had a lot of Berlin/German experiences. Like I've been here seven years, so if I haven't like assimilated at least 70%, I think that would be a pretty bad sign. Yeah.

Interesting. Because I don't think like ... I struggle with the term assimilation, like where it's like, I don't think that I have assimilated but I live here and I feel at home here and I have my own community here.

What does it mean then?

But then it's not at all ... Like, we could be a community anywhere.

You know ...

I don't feel like it's so related to Berlin even, or Germany, in a way ...

Are there things that you have done here that you didn't do before? Like for me I remembered FKK. Like I never ever in my life would be nude in public at a lake, and that's the only kind of way that I go to lakes now. And that's only because of being here.

Even the non-FKK.Beaches, you show up naked?

I don't go to non-FKK beaches! Like I have my lakes that I go to, and that's a very specific thing that I've only done since I moved here. [Mm, I don't know.]

I can think of ways that I've become more German that I'm actually proud of. Like the things that I like about German culture, especially coming from San Francisco, it's like day and night in a lot of ways. AndI think, just having like a more ... being a little bit ... How do I say this? Like, not skeptical ...

Critical thinking.

Cri ... Just being ... Having better boundaries.

I don't think it's critical thinking. It's just critical! [Does that make sense?] [Yeah, like, true.]

That's not all in at the very first moment.

You know, as a fellow American, like, when I ... Okay. After living here for five years, I went back to San Francisco and everyone hugs everyone. [Yeah.] And I was like: "Hey, this is too much. I don't know you!"

This is trauma. What you're talking about is trauma. [Is it?] [Yeah!] I don't know. I feel like ... There isn't ... Like when you go places and your initial response from someone isn't, like, dismissal and they're open to you, you're like: "You're weird!" And you're like: "Oh, no, wait, I think I'm weird". It's like, actually, you can just be nice to random people. And it doesn't diminish me at all if I'm nice to random people.

In America, we hug, right? Here, people shake hands first.

If they acknowledge you at all.

If they acknowledge you at all. Is that like a difference that you're talking ...

Well, it depends on the context, right? Like here, for example, we hugged when we met each other, but that's also because we met each other with a common friend. [Yeah.] Right, and so for me it's like that makes sense, even here like that makes sense. Like I would hug people, and that part doesn't feel, you know ...

But that's definitely a thing. That's like: "Oh, I brought my friend," and then you shake their hand. And then you hang out, even if it's just for 10 minutes, and then to say goodbye you hug them because now you know them. [Yeah.] But the first greeting, sometimes it's a hug, sometimes it's a handshake, [Yeah.] because you don't know them yet.

No, I agree.

Yeah. We like to keep our distance. But what about making friends? Like, you alluded to this. Has it been hard making German friends?

I mean, I don't have that many German friends. So it's not about like if it's hard or not. Like it's not like I don't have many friends, but it's ... I'm just like ...

Do you want them German? Two of them German? Do you want to have German friends? Is this?

I don't think ... It's not like I go out and be like: I want to have German friends. I go out and I meet people who I then become friends with. A lot of them aren't German, you know? Like, so it's not like I have been pursuing foreign friends. It's mostly that's just what has happened. Yeah, kind of. And I think it is very interesting. I feel like Germans, the way that you meet people, or the way that Germans, I don't know, interact at the beginning, I recently ... this is like a random story, but I feel like Germans friend-bomb you a bit at the beginning, where they're like: "We're really good friends!" And it's like: "Oh!"

Germans?

Germans, yeah. It's like weird.

Wait, what? I actually don't know what you mean.

I have had this experience multiple times, and this is the first time I've like really put words to it. But I feel like there is a certain type of meeting where either there's absolutely ... you get absolutely nothing, but if you get a little, you're then like: "We're like best friends." And I'm like: "Oh! I did not expect that." You know, like there's this term love-bombing in, like, relationships.

I do have one German friend.

It's not love-bombing. It's just friendship. And they're like: "We're friends, and let's go out." And you're like: "Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh! I didn't expect all this." And then if you lean in, you can become good friends. But I feel like multiple times I've been like friend-bombed by Germans. In a way that has been nice in the end, but also ways where I'm like: "Oh, nein! Nein, danke!"

You haven't felt that way?

No. I actually literally don't know what you're talking about.

Do you have any German friends?

Yeah.

A few?

It's not a competition!

How many hands do you need to count them? I would say one hand.

One hand. I don't go out searching. Like, I'm a very ...

You don't go out searching for Germans!

So, like, because I was trying to think, I'm like, I can't actually calculate in my head, like, how many I have on a finger or whatnot because I just ... I have friends. But it's easy for me to make friends here. Good friends is a different question. But friends, yes. [All right.]

That's so interesting The good friends thing is what I find ... like where I feel like the Germans are like, they instantly are like good friends. You know, they're like: "We're instantly good friends!" I'm like: "Oh! We just met." You know

Yeah.

I think you're a unicorn in that regard. I don't think ... [Really?] This is not what I hear from our community. They're every ... like what ... and I also just ...

Community of what?

Of German learners. Of ... you know, at Easy German. Like people tell us: "Yeah, you know, I meet people and stuff, but, like, all the Germans already have all their best friends from kindergarten and like school and maybe university, and they're like done. They don't need any more friends."

It also depends on where you're going like. If you're ... like it depends on where you're going, what area is you try to make friends. Like if you go to a party, I feel like ... I mean this is my ... it's only my experience, but I feel like it's easier to meet people, so that's a friend, but to actually nurture a relationship, which is a good friend, that is the hard part in a city like Berlin. That is very hard because ... It's not because anyone is distancing themselves from anybody, but Berlin is a very transient city, we're always busy, everyone's doing one thing, someone else is doing another thing, and to make friendships work takes a lot of time. Like some of my close friends I don't see for two months at a time. We're still good friends but I don't see them for two months at a time, because our, like, just schedules are just so different So to nurture actual good friendships I think that is something that is quite challenging, depending on your expectations of how a friendship should be. Because I get the comment a lot of times that I don't respond to messages - which I don't, and that upsets people - but I'm just a person who is not always going to hang out with people, but that doesn't mean that we're not good friends. But so some people need different ... Some people have different expectations of what it means to also be friends.

Jae, you added one question to our [Yeah.] preparatory document for today, and it is ...

Is everyone moving to Berlin?

Has everyone already moved to Berlin?

I mean, yeah, I brought this question up because I think our whole podcast is about: Everyone's Moving to Berlin. So to have a ...

I mean, the backstory on that, was that there's a song by that name that I liked, [Yeah.] and that's what the podcast was called.

And it's a lovely theory.

I mean, I think everybody is moving to ... Like, I think it's still a thing. Like, lots and lots of people are moving to Berlin still, right? Or ... ?

I think so. It definitely surprises me when I go out and I meet people and they're like: "I moved here." I'm like, "Oh! Interesting!" Like you kind of feel like everyone's world revolves around them, you know, [Yeah.] individually in a way, [Yeah.] you know. And when I moved here, it did feel like I was meeting other people who ... everyone was moving to Berlin, because that was the crowd in which I was, you know. And now I'm in a crowd of people who have already moved to Berlin, and then so when I meet other people who just moved here, it's kind of like a little bit of a refreshing shock where I'm like: "Oh, it is still happening!" Yeah. Ah, okay. Yeah. This is still a new experience for people.

Yeah. But it still feels a little bit more, I don't know. I, I, ... My sense is it feels a little bit rarer. Like, it's like what you were just saying. Like it's kind of, when it does happen, you're like: "Oh, people are doing it!" [Yeah.] You know, it's not like that common.

I don't think ...

I don't know. I feel like when I ... 'Cause another thing I would say is like when I first moved here, everyone lived in a WG. Everyone lived in a WG. And now I don't know anyone who lives in a WG. And I'm like, did all the WG's just disappear? Or do I just not know people who live in WG's?

You're also getting older, and ... [Exactly.] [People want to live in their own apartment.]

Yeah, but I had my own apartment way back when, you know, but everyone else didn't. [Lucky you!] Yeah! It was ... it's called having an unbefristeter Contract. Look it up. But it was ... it also was completely unintentional. I did not know what I was doing when I did it. And then it happened, and I'm like: "Thank fucking God that happened when it happened." But I think like did I change? Or did Berlin change? Like are there as many WG's as there were before?

I think you changed, because I know a lot of people who are ... Actually that's a lot ...

Exactly! People lived in like five-people WG's, like these giant WG's, and I feel like they're all gone.

I actually don't know that many people who live in WG's.

This is what I'm saying there is a ... What is the opposite of like a pandemic? A drought. [A drought. A drought.] WG drought!

So four-and-a-half years ago when we started this podcast, Jae was packing his suitcases.

Yes.

Big plans. Come to this city, the big city dream.

Come to the big city.

What advice will you all give this person?

Oh, young Jae.

This young Jae.

22.

Full of dreams.

With hair.

Wanting to move to Berlin. Maybe someone's listening to this.

Take Finasterid!

Take what?

No!

Okay. Sasha, what's your advice?

Oh my God. Advice. I think, don't go to Berghain as your first weekend experience, because you might cry! I don't know. I mean, I ...

What about expectations?

What do you mean?

Like, what should they expect when they come to a city like Berlin?

I think, expect that you can create ... One of the beautiful things about living in Berlin is you can create the life that you want here, to a certain degree. I think that there are certain things that ... Maybe this is opening up a can of worms, but something that I've found is, financial upward mobility is something that is more difficult to get here, unless you're a successful entrepreneur. But even then, the taxes can really get at you. So I think, you know, if that's not something that really, really matters to you, then I think - and also if you have a plan for dealing with the winters - then I think that you're gonna do great here. [Nice.] Yeah.

Good advice. It's so interesting, because just like on the financial thing, [Yeah.] I really wonder how much of like Berlin's draw before, was how financially accessible it was [Yes.] in the beginning, you know, like [That was mine.] I moved from London where financially accessible, you just ... I just worked all the time, I didn't have any money. I moved here, I worked, I had enough money to also live. And I was like: "Oh!" And so all of this like openness that people speak about of Berlin, and I wonder how much of it is actually just being accessible financially. Maybe there's no mobility, you just like stay at the level that you are at. [That's exactly it, yeah.] You don't like, become rich overnight by launching something, but you could exist quite comfortably at a level that was quite accessible before. And I don't know if that's the same now.

Yeah. I think it's ... I think it is - I don't know if that's the same now either - but I think a lot of living here is that it is easier to be comfortable here? Comfortable? But the question is: thriving. Like is it easier to thrive? I don't actually think so. Of course that's like ...

Thrive like economically? [Economically.] Okay. Yeah, no, yeah. [Yeah.] Interesting.

Yeah. You go.

Oh! Advice? Final words of advice?

Thrive economically! Like advice for someone moving to Berlin. I feel like when I first moved here, I was so unbelievably open to meeting people. Like everyone I call my closest friends now, 90% of them I didn't know when I moved to Berlin, and that's kind of crazy. And I don't know if I could do that now, you know. I don't think I could move somewhere and meet 90% new friends who I would be very close with and feel comfortable and ... and so just be open still. I don't know.

Yeah. My advice would be to not only rely on all the things that people put together and offer, like meetups and events, but throw them yourself. Like essentially what you're doing, Sasha. Like when I was new in Berlin, I also started some random meetup for people who had a shared interest. Like don't come here expecting other people to make it easy for you. Just like organize the getting together the projects that you want to do, the movies you want to make, the podcasts you want to start. Like bring the thing ... bring things to the table and collect people who want to join you in the effort.

That's amazing advice. Like this is a really beautiful place to create.

Exactly.

And when you do create those kinds of events, something that I find as a host, is that people are really, really grateful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Would you say, like because I would think that Berlin, that people aren't so proactive in organizing these things. You know, like it's harder ... It feels like places like London or San Francisco, everyone - what I imagine, I've never lived in San Francisco - but like I imagine that kind of everyone there is like ready to go and like is starting new things, and is more motivated than they are here. In my mind, Berlin is much less motivated to start these things.

It is, but when you realize that for the ones who are motivated, it's quite easy [Okay.] once you do it. Like I've made events and it's just like talking to a bar or a facility and just asking: "We can use your space?"

Exactly. There's spaces, [Yeah.] They're affordable.

Yeah, it's very possible, [That's interesting.] but it is a smaller community of people who are doing that. My advice to that younger version of me - I'd know this one to a T - I would tell: Don't focus on the fleeting experiences. Really start ... try to nurture actual good relationships, good experiences. Because I was very much jumping from one thing to the next thing, had a lot of shiny-object syndrome when I got here, and started-stopped things, started-stopped things, went from this group to that group, that group, that function, that thing, that thing, and you don't have a lot to look back on, growth-wise, whenever you do that. Sometimes for me it seems like a pile of mess. So if I was to retell myself coming into it, I'll be like: If you're going to come to this city, really prioritize nurturing relationships, nurturing your life here.