Show Notes
- Jae Creates a Vibe Radio (Soundcloud)
- GLS Bank
- Couchsurfing
- Vagabonding: An Uncommon Guide to the Art of Long-Term World Travel (Goodreads)
Transcript
Jae:
[0:09] I decided to make - I was telling Manuel about I wanted to make - a podcast. Originally it was going to be called, Jae Creates the Podcast podcast, but a few years ago I had made a podcast but it was more like a radio show where I would play music and just talk about it, and play music and talk about it, or whatnot. And I kind of stopped doing it. I only did it for like two episodes. But I decided I kind of really want to bring that back. So I decided yesterday that I was going to do it. It's called, Jae Creates a Vibe Radio, and I did Episode 1, where I played some music, talked about it, played some music, talked about it. I could only really upload it to SoundCloud just because I'm playing actual music, you know, so that was probably the easiest way, but I am trying to use anchor.fm to see ... like they have a feature where you can actually play music, like do Spotify on it. But as we already talked about, Manuel, Anchor is not the best app in software.
Manuel:
[1:12] Anchor sucks!
Jae:
[1:13] And you know, they said that it was published, but if you look on Spotify nothing comes up, so I don't know. Yeah, but check it out on SoundCloud: Jae Creates a Vibe Radio. I already have Episode 1 up there. Yeah, and then there's an uninterrupted version too.
Manuel:
[1:33] So basically like seven episodes into this podcast, you've already created a new podcast!
Jae:
[1:40] Yes. We'll see. No, I wouldn't even call it a podcast. It's not a podcast, it's a radio show.
Manuel:
[1:44] A radio show.
Jae:
[1:45] I kind of want to get away from the popular ... Like I'm trying to make my own world here, and I think ...
Manuel:
[1:51] Of course you do! Of course you're making your own world!
Jae:
[1:53] Of course! Jae Creates the World, you know! But I think this is my way of doing that, plus it's something I really love. I love music, so I'm just doing exactly what I like to do on my own time. And you know, I'm not expecting anybody to listen to this, this is more for my own enjoyment. But I did it, and I think that was just the biggest thing that I wanted to do. I just wanted to do something that I was excited about and passionate about. So my goal is to be consistent with it. So we'll see how that goes. But I'm pretty confident, like doing this podcast and stuff has definitely given me the encouragement and the drive to do more.
Manuel:
[2:36] You realized: Hey, this, this podcasting stuff, it's easy! All I have to do is talk and then people listen to it!
Jae:
[2:44] Yes! Honestly podcast is the wave! Like I just think the idea of just doing audio ... because I mean we're in such a world where video, video, video, video! Yeah, video is great, video is .. granted, like we work in a video production company, but personally for me and it only being me, it's very hard, at least in my life, to kind of manage all of that. You've got to record, set it up, edit, all that type of stuff. When it's just with audio you literally set up your mic, record, and that's it!
Manuel:
[3:17] Pretty much. Plus and minus some some things you want to do, like edit it, for example, make sure it sounds good. But yeah, that makes me happy that this podcast has inspired you to do more. And honestly, I agree. I always feel like ... I mean I've said this many times in the past, I feel like everybody should have a podcast, really. Even if, you know, you have a smaller audience maybe. Like if you have something to say, record a podcast. It's much easier than to become a writer for example, because not everybody knows how to write, necessarily, but everybody knows how to talk and how to tell a story, and it's a great medium. And you can listen so much more than you can even watch videos. So the capacity is also higher.
Jae:
[3:59] Exactly.
[4:00] Speaking of which, we have some listeners already. First of all, thank you to those of you who immediately sent me an email when I accidentally published only half of the last episode! If you listened to the last episode and wondered: Hey, why does this stop in the middle of the conversation? That's because we were traveling and we were in a place with very, very bad internet, and somehow I managed to upload half of the episode and publish it. I didn't even know this was technically possible, but somehow it published like half of the MP3 and it went into the feed. And then some kind listeners wrote in and I fixed it the next day. And so if you didn't listen to the whole episode, just delete it and download it again.
[4:45] And then we also got some feedback, one of which I would like to just mention as follow-up, because we talked about banks in Germany, and we specifically talked a lot about N26 and about DKB. And Veronica writes, "I would recommend GLS Bank. It's a sustainable alternative to conventional banks where you never know where your money goes. You do have to pay a yearly contribution to support their green initiatives. The sign-up process was super smooth, unlike with N26 with whom I actually had a horrible experience. For some reason they don't approve accounts with certain citizenships." So that's a good tip. We actually have GLS account as well with our company, and I think it's absolutely true that this bank has good values and tries to do the right thing. So I don't have any personal experience with it, but I would definitely pass on this recommendation.
Jae:
[5:47] Thank you so much, Veronica.
[5:49] So what are we talking about today?
Jae:
[5:52] Tourist Go Home! Okay.
Manuel:
[5:56] Tourist Go Home! I will put that photo in the chapter art. If you're listening on a good podcast app - not Spotify! - you can see the chapter image, and you will see Jae and me standing in front of the wall in Barcelona that says: TOURIST GO HOME.
Jae:
[6:04] Yeah.
Manuel:
[6:13] And is this something that we believe in? No. I think it's great that Berlin has lots of tourists.
Jae:
[6:17] No, no. Yeah, it was very funny. I think that was the theme of Barcelona. You would see on all these walls: Tourist Go Home, Tourist Go Home. People would paint over it one day and then it would come back the next day. And yeah, today we're talking about, well, not necessarily Tourist Go Home, but I was always wondering how not to be a tourist, and I'll elaborate a little bit on that. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a tourist. I encourage people to, you know, if you're living in a place that you've been living there for a long time, try to switch on your tourist mode, go and see things that you have never seen before. However, on the flip side of that, I think whenever I go to a new city or I go to a new place, I don't like doing the cliché touristy things, you know, like the stuff you can see online. I like doing the things that locals would do. I like doing the things that people who actually live in a city do, and like replicate how they live. So this episode is essentially about how not to be a tourist, how to live a more local lifestyle, so to say.
Manuel:
[7:24] Yeah. Or I guess, if you're not moving to Berlin but you're just thinking about visiting, then maybe this would be a few recommendations in terms of what to do or how to do it when you are visiting, without being too much of a tourist. I have that same feeling. I used to be very kind of even allergic to this word, "tourist," and I would be like: I'm not a tourist, I'm a traveler. I think it's a little ridiculous, really, to get hung up on these words so much. In the end, it's a spectrum. And when I traveled around the world, I definitely did tons of really touristy things and things that are in the top ten things you need to do when you're in Peru, or whatever. And I don't think there's anything wrong with going to those places or doing them. But there is a certain mindset, I think, that some people, or that that you can fall into, where basically all you're doing is checking off lists and like: Yep, gone there and done that! And basically, you're taking a guidebook and you're just checking off all the lists. And I think the mindset that I try to have when I'm visiting, is just to experience the place and be present in the place, and give chance and serendipity a chance, you know. And just to have time to wander around and get myself into trouble, basically!
Jae:
[8:56] That is such a great mindset! I completely agree with that. Honestly, I think whenever I've allowed myself to kind of just wonder around the city, I probably have found a lot more than I would if I had planned everything out. I think that freedom is one of the best things about going to a new place and experiencing it for the first time, that you don't know anything, and everything is so exciting for you. You know, like something as mundane as shopping in a grocery store has completely been transformed with me being here in Germany, because the grocery store is not just a grocery store now, it's a jungle for me, you know: different languages, different types of food, different placements of things, you know? And I think when you're able to, yeah, just have that type of ... embrace the serendipity of life when you're in a new place, yeah, I just think that's probably one of the best state of being you can ever get yourself in.
[9:58] Totally. Have you ever used couchsurfing.org?
Jae:
[10:01] No, I haven't. I know a lot about it and I've heard a lot of people who have done it before, and I've heard good things about it. But no, I haven't tried it. Have you?
Manuel:
[10:09] Yes. Actually I used to be hugely into Couchsurfing, both as a Surfer, as they call them ... so I Couchsurfed many, many years ago in Mexico and in different places that I've visited or lived in, and had some really cool experiences there. And then also later when I was traveling around the world, I Couchsurfed in Hong Kong and in Tokyo and in some of these kind of really expensive cities just to save some money. And then I also hosted people in Berlin for a while and might actually pick that up again now that I have a place where I have a couch where people can sleep on. But basically the experiences that I've had, what made them special, was that people didn't just give me a couch to crash but they kind of made me part of their daily life for a day or a few days. And I'm thinking back, like I don't think I ever did something super touristy with any of my Couchsurfing hosts or guests. It was never like: Okay let's go check out the Brandenburg Gate, or let's do this really touristy thing. It was always like hanging out, cooking together, going for a walk, "Hey, we know this really cool cafe, you should see it." Like staying with a local, whether it's through Couchsurfing, which has deteriorated a little bit as a project and as a website so I can't vouch for it, but I'm sure there's many other projects or ways to kind of stay with a local or with a host family. I think that's probably the best way to experience a place without just having those tourist glasses on the entire time.
Jae:
[11:54] I completely agree. I think that's really great. I think, yeah, I mean when you do live with locals, you assimilate to what they do, and there's something more beautiful about that because it's so specific and unique, you know? And I think also it's like, for example, if you're couch surfing in Peru, you're going to have a very different experience with a local than someone else who is Couchsurfing on another family in Peru, rather than when you are going to the touristy spaces. There's only so many touristy spaces that everyone goes to and everyone shares that experience, but that Couchsurfing experience is so unique to you and that family, and that's super cool.
Manuel:
[12:38] Exactly. Yeah, yeah, every experience is so different and I think when someone says: Couchsurfing, you immediately associate it with, I don't know, people in their 20s who share their places and then maybe cook together and party together. But I had some very different experiences. I remember in Mexico I stayed with two guys that were incredibly humble, and poor, quite frankly, they lived in a place that had nothing, really. They had two beds, which they gave to me and my friend, and then they wanted to sleep on the floor and our arguing about it didn't help, like they really wanted to give us their beds. And they worked on the street as jugglers in the intersections, and kind of they shared this life of theirs with us, and then in the evenings and then at night they were jugglers in nightclubs. And they were like: You can come to those nightclubs with us, basically, we'll let you in and you'll be guests, and, you know, we'll work there. And it was such a crazy experience to kind of see this very, very different lifestyle and to become friends with them.
[13:50] And then another experience, which I also had in Mexico, was an elderly couple, like this couple that was in their 70s, I think, hosted me. And so they were from the US but they had relocated to Mexico to spend their retirement years there, and they told me that they were doing Couchsurfing as a way to travel without traveling, and to kind of invite the world into their home. And they weren't very mobile and so we mostly like we spent some time together at their place and then we also went grocery shopping. - this reminded me because you were talking about grocery shopping - and I went grocery shopping with them. And it's still ... like I still ... This was so many years ago, this was in 2007, I think, no, 2010, something like that. And I still remember this trip to the grocery store with them because it was so special and such a unique experience.
Jae:
[14:52] I love that. I love that. See, it's the most simple things that can be completely different if you're around different people, you know. That's what makes it special.
Manuel:
[15:22] Wow, it's a really tricky question. I mean the first thing that I think I always recommend is to try and experience the city from above, and if possible by bike or walking or maybe scooters, like some way where you're mobile but you're not just reliant on the subway lines and the stops where they stop. So I think if you can, if you're confident cycling in a big city with lots of dangers, I think that's the way to go. And then in terms of ... I mean are you talking about what to do when you're just trying to discover this city? Or what do you mean exactly?
Jae:
[16:11] Yeah, I would say when you're trying to discover the city. But you know all the typical cliché things that you can do, but there's the things that are only day-to-day, that more locals will only really get, which I think ... like for me, I'm figuring out simply going to a park. It's something that people just do normally on their day-to-day, and if you really want to experience the city, I really one hundred percent agree. Walking, biking, above ground, please do that. Like that was probably the best thing I did was get my bike and start walking, because you completely experience it in a different way. And then just going to parks, yeah, walking and going to parks and just chilling there. That's something I love seeing every time I go out. It's just people chilling on the park, and especially now where the weather is so great, it's one of the best things you can do.
Manuel:
[17:05] That's true. Parks and also neighborhoods. So we did this episode where we talked about Berlin's neighborhoods. And I think one thing that I would recommend, and that I kind of want to do more of, myself, is instead of just going to the kind of areas or neighborhoods that are well-known or that have attractions, try to go to different neighborhoods over time, just to walk around and see what is this neighborhood like. And one tip in terms of how to do that without immediately being bored and being like: Okay what am I doing? I'm just walking along some street where there's nothing, Google Maps has this feature where basically they are marking areas that are busier with daily life in this kind of light shaded yellow. And I think it's based on basically the density of cafes and restaurants and shops, because Google Maps knows about those, and if it sees a lot of shops and restaurants in a specific street it marks it with this kind of yellowish background. And so picking a neighborhood or an area and then just looking: Okay, which parts ... ? And sometimes it's just like two blocks or something, it's not necessarily a big area, but then just picking a part and taking a walk there, I think that would be a real kind of adventure in getting to know the city without being a tourist at all, because that's not something that tourists do.
Jae:
[18:33] That's such a smart little thing that like ... I look at my Google Maps and I've always noticed that, but I never thought about that in that way. That's probably, yeah, that's good advice right there, and yeah, just going to places where places are busy and just seeing when you get there.
Manuel:
[19:00] I think we usually say, "pub" if it's an Irish pub, otherwise we say, "bar". But can I ask you: Do you feel comfortable going to a bar by yourself? Because I feel like you mentioned this recently when we were traveling, and I'm not shy, and I'm happy to talk to people that I don't know, and stuff like that. I'm not an introvert at all, but I feel like I would feel a little weird going to a bar by myself and then what do you do? You sit down and you can look around? Do you ever actually do this?
Jae:
[19:37] I do this a lot. I do this a lot, a lot. I did this when we were in Barcelona, I did this when I was in ... I've done this in Berlin, I've done this in Austin, I've done this everywhere I go. And kind of for me, I mean, I had no other choice. Especially if I go to a new city, I don't know anybody, so you kind of have to. And I've learned to be more comfortable with it, like it's all about your mindset that you go into it. You have to remember that no one knows you. And of course, you know, obviously be safe, be mindful, let people know where you are if that's something important to you, of course make sure you're being smart about it, but with all that aside, I do understand, you know, being uncomfortable in those situations. But I think that's also that's the serendipity that's part of the 'maybe' of it, is you really don't know who you'll meet or what type of vibe or what type of atmosphere you'll get by doing this. And when you're by yourself, you allow yourself to be open to anything that's coming, and you're also a lot more approachable, and you're also able to approach a lot more people when it's just yourself.
[20:41] I remember recently, like maybe two weeks ago, right before we left for Barcelona, I decided to go to a hostel randomly at night and just go to the bar there by myself. So I just walked to the hostel, and when I got there, I mean, drinking, I was just sitting there by the table by myself and I saw everyone talking, you know? And I was very nervous. Like you will always be nervous, you will always be nervous. And I was like I see these two guys, they're just chilling there, they're watching something on their phone, like I don't really want to interrupt them, but they don't seem like they're really by anybody. So I was like: You know what? Let me just take a swig of beer and let's just walk over there. So I took a swig of beer and I walked over there. I was like, "Hey, do you mind if I sit here?" And they're like, "Yeah, sure!" It turns out they were two tourists from Sweden that just made it to Berlin, they really didn't know anybody either, they were just watching football just because they were bored. And just me going up to them and approaching them actually started some conversations and some other people came along. And it was such a really cool experience.
[21:55] And that happened to me when I was in Barcelona as well. I was just sitting by myself, I made eye contact with somebody, we just started talking, and then another person came over, and it slowly grew. I think you just have to, one, trust yourself. You have to know that you're a good person and you're okay, and the worst that anybody can ever say is just: No, and then you say: No. You know, you just move on. Like the only ... You choose to feel embarrassed, you know. No one's going to make you feel embarrassed. So if you decide to not feel embarrassed, or if you decide to feel embarrassed but you still want to do it anyways, you'll just move on and find somebody else, you know. I always look for eye contact. Eye contact is always the best way that I found to approach people if you're sitting by yourself or whatnot. And you're looking around and someone makes eye contact with you, and not necessarily even in a flirtatious way, some are flirtatious, but not always, that just acknowledgment of you, too, are another person, is a little bit of permission to go up to them, you know? I've always found most times if it's someone that I made eye contact with, they are a lot more likely to have a conversation with me.
Manuel:
[23:06] Totally. It's really funny, because I feel like my friends know me as the person who makes friends in random places with random strangers, but I feel like you are at another level, where you literally like force yourself to regularly ... I mean, I think it's also ... I mean I did this actually when I was traveling by myself, I actually did this way more too, like I did actually go to bars sometimes by myself, and I did talk to people and meet people. And in hostels, anyway, you always meet so many people and it's so easy. But I guess once you are settled in a place and, you know, once you've lived in a place for a while and you have your friends and your social circle, then it's like I'm at the point where I'm really struggling to see my own friends often enough, and I usually feel very guilty about not being in touch enough and not seeing them enough, and so then meeting strangers doesn't become a priority anymore. But I think it should still be a part in everybody's life, because I think meeting new people and meeting strangers and befriending them, even if it's kind of temporary or fleeting, I think it's an amazing experience, and it's a good feeling always.
Jae:
[24:21] I agree. And yeah, definitely, like when I was in Austin, when I first got there, I was meeting people. But then once I got my friend group, I stopped, and that's definitely something I kind of wish I didn't, because I think you're always going to find something exciting by meeting a stranger. And most times whenever I've met random people, it's always been better than I imagined it to be, you know? Even if I already have an establishment group, you have a person who can just offer you a new perspective or just a quick conversation, but you know, you're continuously still meeting people. Because I think, it's very easy to get comfortable, like I think there's levels to it. Like for me, me going to a bar and meeting people is kind of a survival thing because I need to meet people, like I don't know anybody in the city.
[25:14] But then it's once you are past just survival, you're about the comfortability, then I think it takes a little bit more push to be able to be like: Okay, I'm not in survival mode, I'm in driving mode, but I still need to still meet people, I still need to go out and do that. And it takes being conscious and aware that that's the way things are. I mean kudos to everybody who is able to find their friend group, you know, and not need that. But I do think that you always do serve benefits from doing that. Like throughout the months that I was in Austin, some of the best people that I met were people that I met literally maybe a week or two before I left for Berlin. I was there for like nine months and some of the greatest people I met literally the ninth month, the eighth and ninth month. So it's always really great to meet strangers, no matter what.
[26:05] So one thing that you wrote in our notes for this episode is that you don't want to be seen as a tourist. And I wonder is that really ... are you worried about the perception of, I don't know ... like are you worried that if you are walking around town with a camera around your neck, that people will see you as a tourist and kind of look down on you? Or where does this feeling come from?
Jae:
[26:32] That's a great question, and I would say, no, it's not necessarily about them. I really don't give a fuck about everybody else, what they think about me. I was in full-on tourist mode when I first got here, I mean when we were on the train back to Berlin from the airport, I had the camera out every second!
Manuel:
[26:44] Yes. Yes, you were!
Jae:
[26:48] I still like being a tourist. But I love like just ... I love acting, I love assimilating into a culture. So it's more like a personal thing, that I love to feel like I'm a part of the city, that I'm not like someone ... I am a part of city, not an extension or like a temporary thing in the city, like I think it's really cool for me to dress the part and act a part and go to things. It goes back to me really living the local lifestyle, no matter how long I'm there.
Manuel:
[27:21] Yeah, and to be honest, I mean one topic, maybe we'll do it as a separate episode, and it's obviously also my entire, actual professional life, is learning German. And I think it's such a huge part of overcoming that kind of barrier or actually assimilating. Because once you've unlocked the language and you're able to understand people and make yourself understood, you are able to participate in things that you are otherwise maybe somewhat able to participate in, but you'll always stand out as, like you said, someone who's there temporarily maybe, or as a tourist, or as a visitor, or as someone who just got here. But once you're able to actually talk and not worry about it, then, yeah, you're just a part of it.
Jae:
[28:15] I completely agree, and I actually noticed that fairly recently, another thing when we were in Barcelona ... I know we keep talking about Barcelona! This is because we went on a work trip there and we literally just got back, so all of my stories are going to be Barcelona! But I met up with Dustin, and he was telling me about his experience in Berlin, and one thing that he was really happy that he did, was learn German, because he felt that it unlocked like a new layer for him in the entire city. And that just really changed my perspective of things. It's like you really are able to unlock a completely different perspective in the entire city, and, I mean, in the entire country, whenever you are able to assimilate with the language. You're able to communicate in the very smallest ways, you know. You're able to overhear a conversation and know what they're saying, you're able to read signs and understand what the signs mean, you know?
[29:11] And I think that's something that is very inspiring for me, to learn German and to learn it fairly quickly, just so I can really have that essence and have that little extension of the experience. Because I think the best parts of Berlin are going to be the parts that are in German, because I mean it's a German city, the foundation of it is German. So I think that is a good way of assimilating to the culture and not necessarily being a tourist, but actually like trying ... Because also, I'll add that traveling and going to different countries or going different places is not just about the visual sightseeing of a different city, but I think there's another level of actually experiencing what people there experience, you know, like why else go to a different place? Of course you have to sightsee and to live on the beach or whatnot, but also to figure out how people live their lives there. We are so used to the way that we live, so why not do what you can, to respectfully figure out how other people live?
Manuel:
[30:17] Totally. There's a book that I think is pretty well-known at this point, but I really enjoyed it. It's called, Vagabonding: An Uncommon Guide to the Art of Long-Term World Travel, and one of the things it says - and I still remember this, even though it's been a while since I last read this - is that a trip or any any trip or journey, doesn't begin the moment you leave your house. It actually begins once you make the decision to take the journey, and once you start saving up money for it or start making plans or start getting yourself into this mindset. And I think that's a really good attitude, that things don't start because your eyes are seeing something differently or your feet are touching a different street there, they start in your mind, basically.
[31:11] And when I did my world trip, I traveled around the world for two years and I basically saved for that trip years leading up to it. Like I started saving for it years before I actually went, and I kind of considered that whole part of my life already part of the trip, like that was already part of the experience. And yeah, that's something that I would also recommend in terms of mindset, I guess. And just quickly going back to the language thing, I think Berlin is really a double-edged sword, because if you go live in a Bavarian village you will, by sheer necessity, learn German very fast because otherwise you will just have a very difficult time just even kind of getting by. Whereas in Berlin you can get by fine without English, and you can do everything you need to do in daily life. And you can also easily find friends, because Germans love speaking English, most of them, at least, or many of them, and there's a huge expat community in Berlin, and you can basically never learn German and you'll be fine. But you will miss out on that kind of deeper level or kind of experiencing the rest that this place has to offer.
Jae:
[32:36] Exactly. And I've heard that from everybody. Even the expats I've met, are like; Oh, I don't want to learn German, or whatnot. And I think that's like cool, you know, you don't need to learn it. But some people I've talked to have lived in the neighborhood here for two, three years and they still don't know German! And I'm like: How do you live here for so long and you still don't know the language? But granted, everyone has different, I guess, preferences or journeys that were intentions whenever they moved to a different place. But I think that's very important. Because also for me, it's like one thing of not being a tourist is also being able to travel around Germany, not just staying in Berlin. So at one point I would love to visit Munich or any of the other cities, and feel comfortable being able to go there and speak German. Like traveling around Germany, that would be ... that's a really big goal of mine, and those places that can't necessarily rely on everybody speaking English. So I definitely am like, yeah, you definitely can get by with just speaking English here, but also, I mean, it's also part of the journey to try to learn a different language or whatnot. And we work in like a language-learning community, so it's also very inspiring for me to do the same thing.
Manuel:
[33:51] Totally. Okay, what else is there anything else about this whole topic of not being a tourist?
Jae:
[33:58] Yes, I actually have a question for you. More like one of the funny things is: How do you spot a tourist?
[34:05] They stand on the cycle path that I'm trying to race down on as fast as I can! Yeah, no seriously, we put this in a video, in an Easy German video, even. It's definitely a thing. Because, I don't know, I mean, part of the problem is the German way to build bicycle paths, because they often are directly attached or even just kind of the same as the sidewalk for pedestrians, and the only difference is like a slight change in color, but they're not separated in any way. And in other countries they're properly separated, which is much safer and better. But yeah, so tourists often don't know: Oh this is meant to be for bikes, and this is meant for pedestrians, so they just walk or stand. And then true Berliners get very upset and yell at them or furiously ring their bells. I didn't used to have a bell and just yelled at people, and at some point I felt like this was actually unnecessarily rude, so I got a bell, and now I'm ringing my bell: ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping!
Jae:
[35:13] And now you excessively do that!
Manuel:
[35:17] But yeah, I mean that's definitely a surefire way to spot tourists. I think you can tell from kind of the backpack and the camera, and the way they look at their ... like the way ... I say, "they" as though it's like another kind of people! I'm obviously often in this very same role myself, you know!
Jae:
[35:39] No way!
Manuel:
[35:43] But I mean, when you're looking at your phone and you're kind of turning around to see if you're looking into the right direction, and stuff like that. I always stop and ask, "Hey, do you need help?" And sadly, usually people say, "No," and basically what they mean is: I would rather trust Google Maps than I would trust you, so please don't talk to me! But I think when that happened to me in the past, when someone said, "Hey, do you need help?" I always thought that was kind of, like, kind, and always said, "Yes, I'm looking for this place." Or even if I wasn't looking for a place, I would just say, "I'm visiting, and thanks so much and ... " whatever, which is strike up a conversation, because, yeah, that's really cool when people kind of welcome you into their city by saying, "Hey, do you need any help?"
Jae:
[36:31] Yeah, that's very true.
Manuel:
[36:33] How do you spot a tourist?
Jae:
[36:35] I spot a tourist, I think, yeah, definitely, I think, by the way they're looking up in their phone or whatnot. But then, once again, I'm new to the city, so I won't call myself a tourist but like I said, I'm looking up on my phone too, trying to figure out the directions. But sometimes I can spot a tourist sometimes in the negative sense. They're always going to be a little bit more loud, a little bit more obnoxious, sometimes..
Manuel:
[37:02] True, depending on where they're from. But yeah, some, yeah.
Jae:
[37:05] America! They're the worst! Yeah.
Manuel:
[37:10] And some other countries! But yeah, true, true. And especially in inappropriate places. Being loud is one thing, but sometimes, like in public transport for example, I mean there's countries that are way more to either extreme. So for example, in Japan you can be on a subway car and it is completely packed, and it is quiet. No one is saying anything because it would be rude, and it's just quiet. So Germany is not that either. But then there's other countries ... So for example, I was on a few buses in China and I was just surprised by the noise level. People would talk so loudly. And I think Germany is somewhere in the middle, where you can have a conversation, but you are still kind of aware that there's other people and they shouldn't be able to hear every single word, usually.
Jae:
[38:05] But then though, I will conflict on my own point, because sometimes the locals are the loudest ones. Like drunk locals, they'll be ... Like I've been on the subway late at night and the drunk locals are the ones who are the most loud. So yeah, I mean, I guess it is very hard to spot, but then at that, since I know that they are locals, you know, they're also speaking German or whatnot, so I guess, honestly, I identify tourists by the way they're talking. Like if they're speaking English or German, and then also, I guess, like also how comfortable they are in their environment as well.
Manuel:
[38:46] Although I would say there's a lot of people speaking English in Berlin, and the people who are tourists and the people who live here have a different way of talking. Like I feel like two couples speaking English, I can usually tell who's here, and who is just visiting.
Jae:
[39:03] Fair. Interesting. Now is there anything, as a local in Berlin, as someone who's lived here a long time, that you, aside from them walking on the bike path, things that you don't like tourists to do?
Manuel:
[39:17] One big cliché, which I don't experience where I live, but I kind of understand how some people who live kind of in touristy areas would complain about this, is the suitcases. Like the suitcases going over cobblestone, basically, because some streets really have cobblestone or some other surface that's not smooth, and then you have these hordes of tourists with their little suitcases that they're just like dragging behind them, and it just goes: Kghghghgh, ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-da-ta-ta-ta-ta! ...
Jae:
[39:48] Bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump bump!
Manuel:
[39:53] ... and how that would be annoying. On the other hand, I mean, I used to be ... like I traveled around the world with just a backpack and was a huge believer in it, but I also ... I've warmed up to suitcases, I mean especially if you're trying to bring a lot of stuff for some reason, suitcases with rollers are pretty nice.
Jae:
[40:14] Yeah, digressing, but I definitely like backpacks more than suitcases, but suitcases definitely have had their benefits sometimes. And I'm kind of regretting not having a suitcase sometimes, especially when you do end up having more stuff that you don't realize. But I love the backpack lifestyle though, that's the true backpacking. People don't call it suitcasing!
Manuel:
[40:39] First of all that. And then also. you can run upstairs and not worry about ... like that's just such an unseemly image of, basically, anyone trying to carry their ...
Jae:
[40:45] Yes.
Manuel:
[40:54] ... suitcase up a lot of, like seven floors upstairs. It's just not great.
Jae:
[40:59] Exactly, exactly. But yeah, to sum up my points, I definitely encourage people to still ... I encourage ...
Manuel:
[41:36] That's a great point, and it sounds like a cliché but it's actually it's a really good rule to live by. Because something that I really catch myself not doing, is experiencing the city. And especially if I'm, you know, on a Sunday where I'm taking some time off work and and the weather is beautiful, it's just so easy to stay at home or stay in your neighborhood and do nothing. And that's also fine and has its place, but it's so easy to go to some amazing place in Berlin that you've never seen, and it takes you two hours because you just cycle there and then you cycle back. And it's such a low-hanging fruit, and you get to be a tourist and and experience this thing that people pay thousands of dollars for and fly halfway around the world for, and you can just do it spontaneously on a Sunday, so you should do more of it. So I think you're absolutely right, in terms of having kind of the opposite mindset of the default.
[0:09] I decided to make - I was telling Manuel about I wanted to make - a podcast. Originally it was going to be called, Jae Creates the Podcast podcast, but a few years ago I had made a podcast but it was more like a radio show where I would play music and just talk about it, and play music and talk about it, or whatnot. And I kind of stopped doing it. I only did it for like two episodes. But I decided I kind of really want to bring that back. So I decided yesterday that I was going to do it. It's called, Jae Creates a Vibe Radio, and I did Episode 1, where I played some music, talked about it, played some music, talked about it. I could only really upload it to SoundCloud just because I'm playing actual music, you know, so that was probably the easiest way, but I am trying to use anchor.fm to see ... like they have a feature where you can actually play music, like do Spotify on it. But as we already talked about, Manuel, Anchor is not the best app in software.
Manuel:
[1:12] Anchor sucks!
Jae:
[1:13] And you know, they said that it was published, but if you look on Spotify nothing comes up, so I don't know. Yeah, but check it out on SoundCloud: Jae Creates a Vibe Radio. I already have Episode 1 up there. Yeah, and then there's an uninterrupted version too.
Manuel:
[1:33] So basically like seven episodes into this podcast, you've already created a new podcast!
Jae:
[1:40] Yes. We'll see. No, I wouldn't even call it a podcast. It's not a podcast, it's a radio show.
Manuel:
[1:44] A radio show.
Jae:
[1:45] I kind of want to get away from the popular ... Like I'm trying to make my own world here, and I think ...
Manuel:
[1:51] Of course you do! Of course you're making your own world!
Jae:
[1:53] Of course! Jae Creates the World, you know! But I think this is my way of doing that, plus it's something I really love. I love music, so I'm just doing exactly what I like to do on my own time. And you know, I'm not expecting anybody to listen to this, this is more for my own enjoyment. But I did it, and I think that was just the biggest thing that I wanted to do. I just wanted to do something that I was excited about and passionate about. So my goal is to be consistent with it. So we'll see how that goes. But I'm pretty confident, like doing this podcast and stuff has definitely given me the encouragement and the drive to do more.
Manuel:
[2:36] You realized: Hey, this, this podcasting stuff, it's easy! All I have to do is talk and then people listen to it!
Jae:
[2:44] Yes! Honestly podcast is the wave! Like I just think the idea of just doing audio ... because I mean we're in such a world where video, video, video, video! Yeah, video is great, video is .. granted, like we work in a video production company, but personally for me and it only being me, it's very hard, at least in my life, to kind of manage all of that. You've got to record, set it up, edit, all that type of stuff. When it's just with audio you literally set up your mic, record, and that's it!
Manuel:
[3:17] Pretty much. Plus and minus some some things you want to do, like edit it, for example, make sure it sounds good. But yeah, that makes me happy that this podcast has inspired you to do more. And honestly, I agree. I always feel like ... I mean I've said this many times in the past, I feel like everybody should have a podcast, really. Even if, you know, you have a smaller audience maybe. Like if you have something to say, record a podcast. It's much easier than to become a writer for example, because not everybody knows how to write, necessarily, but everybody knows how to talk and how to tell a story, and it's a great medium. And you can listen so much more than you can even watch videos. So the capacity is also higher.
Jae:
[3:59] Exactly.
Follow-Up: GLS Bank
Manuel:[4:00] Speaking of which, we have some listeners already. First of all, thank you to those of you who immediately sent me an email when I accidentally published only half of the last episode! If you listened to the last episode and wondered: Hey, why does this stop in the middle of the conversation? That's because we were traveling and we were in a place with very, very bad internet, and somehow I managed to upload half of the episode and publish it. I didn't even know this was technically possible, but somehow it published like half of the MP3 and it went into the feed. And then some kind listeners wrote in and I fixed it the next day. And so if you didn't listen to the whole episode, just delete it and download it again.
[4:45] And then we also got some feedback, one of which I would like to just mention as follow-up, because we talked about banks in Germany, and we specifically talked a lot about N26 and about DKB. And Veronica writes, "I would recommend GLS Bank. It's a sustainable alternative to conventional banks where you never know where your money goes. You do have to pay a yearly contribution to support their green initiatives. The sign-up process was super smooth, unlike with N26 with whom I actually had a horrible experience. For some reason they don't approve accounts with certain citizenships." So that's a good tip. We actually have GLS account as well with our company, and I think it's absolutely true that this bank has good values and tries to do the right thing. So I don't have any personal experience with it, but I would definitely pass on this recommendation.
Jae:
[5:47] Thank you so much, Veronica.
How (Not) To Be a Tourist
Manuel:[5:49] So what are we talking about today?
Jae:
[5:52] Tourist Go Home! Okay.
Manuel:
[5:56] Tourist Go Home! I will put that photo in the chapter art. If you're listening on a good podcast app - not Spotify! - you can see the chapter image, and you will see Jae and me standing in front of the wall in Barcelona that says: TOURIST GO HOME.
Jae:
[6:04] Yeah.
Manuel:
[6:13] And is this something that we believe in? No. I think it's great that Berlin has lots of tourists.
Jae:
[6:17] No, no. Yeah, it was very funny. I think that was the theme of Barcelona. You would see on all these walls: Tourist Go Home, Tourist Go Home. People would paint over it one day and then it would come back the next day. And yeah, today we're talking about, well, not necessarily Tourist Go Home, but I was always wondering how not to be a tourist, and I'll elaborate a little bit on that. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a tourist. I encourage people to, you know, if you're living in a place that you've been living there for a long time, try to switch on your tourist mode, go and see things that you have never seen before. However, on the flip side of that, I think whenever I go to a new city or I go to a new place, I don't like doing the cliché touristy things, you know, like the stuff you can see online. I like doing the things that locals would do. I like doing the things that people who actually live in a city do, and like replicate how they live. So this episode is essentially about how not to be a tourist, how to live a more local lifestyle, so to say.
Manuel:
[7:24] Yeah. Or I guess, if you're not moving to Berlin but you're just thinking about visiting, then maybe this would be a few recommendations in terms of what to do or how to do it when you are visiting, without being too much of a tourist. I have that same feeling. I used to be very kind of even allergic to this word, "tourist," and I would be like: I'm not a tourist, I'm a traveler. I think it's a little ridiculous, really, to get hung up on these words so much. In the end, it's a spectrum. And when I traveled around the world, I definitely did tons of really touristy things and things that are in the top ten things you need to do when you're in Peru, or whatever. And I don't think there's anything wrong with going to those places or doing them. But there is a certain mindset, I think, that some people, or that that you can fall into, where basically all you're doing is checking off lists and like: Yep, gone there and done that! And basically, you're taking a guidebook and you're just checking off all the lists. And I think the mindset that I try to have when I'm visiting, is just to experience the place and be present in the place, and give chance and serendipity a chance, you know. And just to have time to wander around and get myself into trouble, basically!
Jae:
[8:56] That is such a great mindset! I completely agree with that. Honestly, I think whenever I've allowed myself to kind of just wonder around the city, I probably have found a lot more than I would if I had planned everything out. I think that freedom is one of the best things about going to a new place and experiencing it for the first time, that you don't know anything, and everything is so exciting for you. You know, like something as mundane as shopping in a grocery store has completely been transformed with me being here in Germany, because the grocery store is not just a grocery store now, it's a jungle for me, you know: different languages, different types of food, different placements of things, you know? And I think when you're able to, yeah, just have that type of ... embrace the serendipity of life when you're in a new place, yeah, I just think that's probably one of the best state of being you can ever get yourself in.
Couchsurfing
Manuel:[9:58] Totally. Have you ever used couchsurfing.org?
Jae:
[10:01] No, I haven't. I know a lot about it and I've heard a lot of people who have done it before, and I've heard good things about it. But no, I haven't tried it. Have you?
Manuel:
[10:09] Yes. Actually I used to be hugely into Couchsurfing, both as a Surfer, as they call them ... so I Couchsurfed many, many years ago in Mexico and in different places that I've visited or lived in, and had some really cool experiences there. And then also later when I was traveling around the world, I Couchsurfed in Hong Kong and in Tokyo and in some of these kind of really expensive cities just to save some money. And then I also hosted people in Berlin for a while and might actually pick that up again now that I have a place where I have a couch where people can sleep on. But basically the experiences that I've had, what made them special, was that people didn't just give me a couch to crash but they kind of made me part of their daily life for a day or a few days. And I'm thinking back, like I don't think I ever did something super touristy with any of my Couchsurfing hosts or guests. It was never like: Okay let's go check out the Brandenburg Gate, or let's do this really touristy thing. It was always like hanging out, cooking together, going for a walk, "Hey, we know this really cool cafe, you should see it." Like staying with a local, whether it's through Couchsurfing, which has deteriorated a little bit as a project and as a website so I can't vouch for it, but I'm sure there's many other projects or ways to kind of stay with a local or with a host family. I think that's probably the best way to experience a place without just having those tourist glasses on the entire time.
Jae:
[11:54] I completely agree. I think that's really great. I think, yeah, I mean when you do live with locals, you assimilate to what they do, and there's something more beautiful about that because it's so specific and unique, you know? And I think also it's like, for example, if you're couch surfing in Peru, you're going to have a very different experience with a local than someone else who is Couchsurfing on another family in Peru, rather than when you are going to the touristy spaces. There's only so many touristy spaces that everyone goes to and everyone shares that experience, but that Couchsurfing experience is so unique to you and that family, and that's super cool.
Manuel:
[12:38] Exactly. Yeah, yeah, every experience is so different and I think when someone says: Couchsurfing, you immediately associate it with, I don't know, people in their 20s who share their places and then maybe cook together and party together. But I had some very different experiences. I remember in Mexico I stayed with two guys that were incredibly humble, and poor, quite frankly, they lived in a place that had nothing, really. They had two beds, which they gave to me and my friend, and then they wanted to sleep on the floor and our arguing about it didn't help, like they really wanted to give us their beds. And they worked on the street as jugglers in the intersections, and kind of they shared this life of theirs with us, and then in the evenings and then at night they were jugglers in nightclubs. And they were like: You can come to those nightclubs with us, basically, we'll let you in and you'll be guests, and, you know, we'll work there. And it was such a crazy experience to kind of see this very, very different lifestyle and to become friends with them.
[13:50] And then another experience, which I also had in Mexico, was an elderly couple, like this couple that was in their 70s, I think, hosted me. And so they were from the US but they had relocated to Mexico to spend their retirement years there, and they told me that they were doing Couchsurfing as a way to travel without traveling, and to kind of invite the world into their home. And they weren't very mobile and so we mostly like we spent some time together at their place and then we also went grocery shopping. - this reminded me because you were talking about grocery shopping - and I went grocery shopping with them. And it's still ... like I still ... This was so many years ago, this was in 2007, I think, no, 2010, something like that. And I still remember this trip to the grocery store with them because it was so special and such a unique experience.
Jae:
[14:52] I love that. I love that. See, it's the most simple things that can be completely different if you're around different people, you know. That's what makes it special.
Experiencing Berlin Like a Local
[15:04] So for you in this city, what do you recommend to people if they want this more local experience here in Berlin? What do you recommend? What's one thing that you recommend them do?Manuel:
[15:22] Wow, it's a really tricky question. I mean the first thing that I think I always recommend is to try and experience the city from above, and if possible by bike or walking or maybe scooters, like some way where you're mobile but you're not just reliant on the subway lines and the stops where they stop. So I think if you can, if you're confident cycling in a big city with lots of dangers, I think that's the way to go. And then in terms of ... I mean are you talking about what to do when you're just trying to discover this city? Or what do you mean exactly?
Jae:
[16:11] Yeah, I would say when you're trying to discover the city. But you know all the typical cliché things that you can do, but there's the things that are only day-to-day, that more locals will only really get, which I think ... like for me, I'm figuring out simply going to a park. It's something that people just do normally on their day-to-day, and if you really want to experience the city, I really one hundred percent agree. Walking, biking, above ground, please do that. Like that was probably the best thing I did was get my bike and start walking, because you completely experience it in a different way. And then just going to parks, yeah, walking and going to parks and just chilling there. That's something I love seeing every time I go out. It's just people chilling on the park, and especially now where the weather is so great, it's one of the best things you can do.
Manuel:
[17:05] That's true. Parks and also neighborhoods. So we did this episode where we talked about Berlin's neighborhoods. And I think one thing that I would recommend, and that I kind of want to do more of, myself, is instead of just going to the kind of areas or neighborhoods that are well-known or that have attractions, try to go to different neighborhoods over time, just to walk around and see what is this neighborhood like. And one tip in terms of how to do that without immediately being bored and being like: Okay what am I doing? I'm just walking along some street where there's nothing, Google Maps has this feature where basically they are marking areas that are busier with daily life in this kind of light shaded yellow. And I think it's based on basically the density of cafes and restaurants and shops, because Google Maps knows about those, and if it sees a lot of shops and restaurants in a specific street it marks it with this kind of yellowish background. And so picking a neighborhood or an area and then just looking: Okay, which parts ... ? And sometimes it's just like two blocks or something, it's not necessarily a big area, but then just picking a part and taking a walk there, I think that would be a real kind of adventure in getting to know the city without being a tourist at all, because that's not something that tourists do.
Jae:
[18:33] That's such a smart little thing that like ... I look at my Google Maps and I've always noticed that, but I never thought about that in that way. That's probably, yeah, that's good advice right there, and yeah, just going to places where places are busy and just seeing when you get there.
Meeting Strangers
[18:52] I would also say, go to bars and go to pubs. Do you guys use the word, "pubs" here?Manuel:
[19:00] I think we usually say, "pub" if it's an Irish pub, otherwise we say, "bar". But can I ask you: Do you feel comfortable going to a bar by yourself? Because I feel like you mentioned this recently when we were traveling, and I'm not shy, and I'm happy to talk to people that I don't know, and stuff like that. I'm not an introvert at all, but I feel like I would feel a little weird going to a bar by myself and then what do you do? You sit down and you can look around? Do you ever actually do this?
Jae:
[19:37] I do this a lot. I do this a lot, a lot. I did this when we were in Barcelona, I did this when I was in ... I've done this in Berlin, I've done this in Austin, I've done this everywhere I go. And kind of for me, I mean, I had no other choice. Especially if I go to a new city, I don't know anybody, so you kind of have to. And I've learned to be more comfortable with it, like it's all about your mindset that you go into it. You have to remember that no one knows you. And of course, you know, obviously be safe, be mindful, let people know where you are if that's something important to you, of course make sure you're being smart about it, but with all that aside, I do understand, you know, being uncomfortable in those situations. But I think that's also that's the serendipity that's part of the 'maybe' of it, is you really don't know who you'll meet or what type of vibe or what type of atmosphere you'll get by doing this. And when you're by yourself, you allow yourself to be open to anything that's coming, and you're also a lot more approachable, and you're also able to approach a lot more people when it's just yourself.
[20:41] I remember recently, like maybe two weeks ago, right before we left for Barcelona, I decided to go to a hostel randomly at night and just go to the bar there by myself. So I just walked to the hostel, and when I got there, I mean, drinking, I was just sitting there by the table by myself and I saw everyone talking, you know? And I was very nervous. Like you will always be nervous, you will always be nervous. And I was like I see these two guys, they're just chilling there, they're watching something on their phone, like I don't really want to interrupt them, but they don't seem like they're really by anybody. So I was like: You know what? Let me just take a swig of beer and let's just walk over there. So I took a swig of beer and I walked over there. I was like, "Hey, do you mind if I sit here?" And they're like, "Yeah, sure!" It turns out they were two tourists from Sweden that just made it to Berlin, they really didn't know anybody either, they were just watching football just because they were bored. And just me going up to them and approaching them actually started some conversations and some other people came along. And it was such a really cool experience.
[21:55] And that happened to me when I was in Barcelona as well. I was just sitting by myself, I made eye contact with somebody, we just started talking, and then another person came over, and it slowly grew. I think you just have to, one, trust yourself. You have to know that you're a good person and you're okay, and the worst that anybody can ever say is just: No, and then you say: No. You know, you just move on. Like the only ... You choose to feel embarrassed, you know. No one's going to make you feel embarrassed. So if you decide to not feel embarrassed, or if you decide to feel embarrassed but you still want to do it anyways, you'll just move on and find somebody else, you know. I always look for eye contact. Eye contact is always the best way that I found to approach people if you're sitting by yourself or whatnot. And you're looking around and someone makes eye contact with you, and not necessarily even in a flirtatious way, some are flirtatious, but not always, that just acknowledgment of you, too, are another person, is a little bit of permission to go up to them, you know? I've always found most times if it's someone that I made eye contact with, they are a lot more likely to have a conversation with me.
Manuel:
[23:06] Totally. It's really funny, because I feel like my friends know me as the person who makes friends in random places with random strangers, but I feel like you are at another level, where you literally like force yourself to regularly ... I mean, I think it's also ... I mean I did this actually when I was traveling by myself, I actually did this way more too, like I did actually go to bars sometimes by myself, and I did talk to people and meet people. And in hostels, anyway, you always meet so many people and it's so easy. But I guess once you are settled in a place and, you know, once you've lived in a place for a while and you have your friends and your social circle, then it's like I'm at the point where I'm really struggling to see my own friends often enough, and I usually feel very guilty about not being in touch enough and not seeing them enough, and so then meeting strangers doesn't become a priority anymore. But I think it should still be a part in everybody's life, because I think meeting new people and meeting strangers and befriending them, even if it's kind of temporary or fleeting, I think it's an amazing experience, and it's a good feeling always.
Jae:
[24:21] I agree. And yeah, definitely, like when I was in Austin, when I first got there, I was meeting people. But then once I got my friend group, I stopped, and that's definitely something I kind of wish I didn't, because I think you're always going to find something exciting by meeting a stranger. And most times whenever I've met random people, it's always been better than I imagined it to be, you know? Even if I already have an establishment group, you have a person who can just offer you a new perspective or just a quick conversation, but you know, you're continuously still meeting people. Because I think, it's very easy to get comfortable, like I think there's levels to it. Like for me, me going to a bar and meeting people is kind of a survival thing because I need to meet people, like I don't know anybody in the city.
[25:14] But then it's once you are past just survival, you're about the comfortability, then I think it takes a little bit more push to be able to be like: Okay, I'm not in survival mode, I'm in driving mode, but I still need to still meet people, I still need to go out and do that. And it takes being conscious and aware that that's the way things are. I mean kudos to everybody who is able to find their friend group, you know, and not need that. But I do think that you always do serve benefits from doing that. Like throughout the months that I was in Austin, some of the best people that I met were people that I met literally maybe a week or two before I left for Berlin. I was there for like nine months and some of the greatest people I met literally the ninth month, the eighth and ninth month. So it's always really great to meet strangers, no matter what.
Assimilating and Learning German
Manuel:[26:05] So one thing that you wrote in our notes for this episode is that you don't want to be seen as a tourist. And I wonder is that really ... are you worried about the perception of, I don't know ... like are you worried that if you are walking around town with a camera around your neck, that people will see you as a tourist and kind of look down on you? Or where does this feeling come from?
Jae:
[26:32] That's a great question, and I would say, no, it's not necessarily about them. I really don't give a fuck about everybody else, what they think about me. I was in full-on tourist mode when I first got here, I mean when we were on the train back to Berlin from the airport, I had the camera out every second!
Manuel:
[26:44] Yes. Yes, you were!
Jae:
[26:48] I still like being a tourist. But I love like just ... I love acting, I love assimilating into a culture. So it's more like a personal thing, that I love to feel like I'm a part of the city, that I'm not like someone ... I am a part of city, not an extension or like a temporary thing in the city, like I think it's really cool for me to dress the part and act a part and go to things. It goes back to me really living the local lifestyle, no matter how long I'm there.
Manuel:
[27:21] Yeah, and to be honest, I mean one topic, maybe we'll do it as a separate episode, and it's obviously also my entire, actual professional life, is learning German. And I think it's such a huge part of overcoming that kind of barrier or actually assimilating. Because once you've unlocked the language and you're able to understand people and make yourself understood, you are able to participate in things that you are otherwise maybe somewhat able to participate in, but you'll always stand out as, like you said, someone who's there temporarily maybe, or as a tourist, or as a visitor, or as someone who just got here. But once you're able to actually talk and not worry about it, then, yeah, you're just a part of it.
Jae:
[28:15] I completely agree, and I actually noticed that fairly recently, another thing when we were in Barcelona ... I know we keep talking about Barcelona! This is because we went on a work trip there and we literally just got back, so all of my stories are going to be Barcelona! But I met up with Dustin, and he was telling me about his experience in Berlin, and one thing that he was really happy that he did, was learn German, because he felt that it unlocked like a new layer for him in the entire city. And that just really changed my perspective of things. It's like you really are able to unlock a completely different perspective in the entire city, and, I mean, in the entire country, whenever you are able to assimilate with the language. You're able to communicate in the very smallest ways, you know. You're able to overhear a conversation and know what they're saying, you're able to read signs and understand what the signs mean, you know?
[29:11] And I think that's something that is very inspiring for me, to learn German and to learn it fairly quickly, just so I can really have that essence and have that little extension of the experience. Because I think the best parts of Berlin are going to be the parts that are in German, because I mean it's a German city, the foundation of it is German. So I think that is a good way of assimilating to the culture and not necessarily being a tourist, but actually like trying ... Because also, I'll add that traveling and going to different countries or going different places is not just about the visual sightseeing of a different city, but I think there's another level of actually experiencing what people there experience, you know, like why else go to a different place? Of course you have to sightsee and to live on the beach or whatnot, but also to figure out how people live their lives there. We are so used to the way that we live, so why not do what you can, to respectfully figure out how other people live?
Manuel:
[30:17] Totally. There's a book that I think is pretty well-known at this point, but I really enjoyed it. It's called, Vagabonding: An Uncommon Guide to the Art of Long-Term World Travel, and one of the things it says - and I still remember this, even though it's been a while since I last read this - is that a trip or any any trip or journey, doesn't begin the moment you leave your house. It actually begins once you make the decision to take the journey, and once you start saving up money for it or start making plans or start getting yourself into this mindset. And I think that's a really good attitude, that things don't start because your eyes are seeing something differently or your feet are touching a different street there, they start in your mind, basically.
[31:11] And when I did my world trip, I traveled around the world for two years and I basically saved for that trip years leading up to it. Like I started saving for it years before I actually went, and I kind of considered that whole part of my life already part of the trip, like that was already part of the experience. And yeah, that's something that I would also recommend in terms of mindset, I guess. And just quickly going back to the language thing, I think Berlin is really a double-edged sword, because if you go live in a Bavarian village you will, by sheer necessity, learn German very fast because otherwise you will just have a very difficult time just even kind of getting by. Whereas in Berlin you can get by fine without English, and you can do everything you need to do in daily life. And you can also easily find friends, because Germans love speaking English, most of them, at least, or many of them, and there's a huge expat community in Berlin, and you can basically never learn German and you'll be fine. But you will miss out on that kind of deeper level or kind of experiencing the rest that this place has to offer.
Jae:
[32:36] Exactly. And I've heard that from everybody. Even the expats I've met, are like; Oh, I don't want to learn German, or whatnot. And I think that's like cool, you know, you don't need to learn it. But some people I've talked to have lived in the neighborhood here for two, three years and they still don't know German! And I'm like: How do you live here for so long and you still don't know the language? But granted, everyone has different, I guess, preferences or journeys that were intentions whenever they moved to a different place. But I think that's very important. Because also for me, it's like one thing of not being a tourist is also being able to travel around Germany, not just staying in Berlin. So at one point I would love to visit Munich or any of the other cities, and feel comfortable being able to go there and speak German. Like traveling around Germany, that would be ... that's a really big goal of mine, and those places that can't necessarily rely on everybody speaking English. So I definitely am like, yeah, you definitely can get by with just speaking English here, but also, I mean, it's also part of the journey to try to learn a different language or whatnot. And we work in like a language-learning community, so it's also very inspiring for me to do the same thing.
Manuel:
[33:51] Totally. Okay, what else is there anything else about this whole topic of not being a tourist?
Jae:
[33:58] Yes, I actually have a question for you. More like one of the funny things is: How do you spot a tourist?
How to Spot a Tourist
Manuel:[34:05] They stand on the cycle path that I'm trying to race down on as fast as I can! Yeah, no seriously, we put this in a video, in an Easy German video, even. It's definitely a thing. Because, I don't know, I mean, part of the problem is the German way to build bicycle paths, because they often are directly attached or even just kind of the same as the sidewalk for pedestrians, and the only difference is like a slight change in color, but they're not separated in any way. And in other countries they're properly separated, which is much safer and better. But yeah, so tourists often don't know: Oh this is meant to be for bikes, and this is meant for pedestrians, so they just walk or stand. And then true Berliners get very upset and yell at them or furiously ring their bells. I didn't used to have a bell and just yelled at people, and at some point I felt like this was actually unnecessarily rude, so I got a bell, and now I'm ringing my bell: ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping!
Jae:
[35:13] And now you excessively do that!
Manuel:
[35:17] But yeah, I mean that's definitely a surefire way to spot tourists. I think you can tell from kind of the backpack and the camera, and the way they look at their ... like the way ... I say, "they" as though it's like another kind of people! I'm obviously often in this very same role myself, you know!
Jae:
[35:39] No way!
Manuel:
[35:43] But I mean, when you're looking at your phone and you're kind of turning around to see if you're looking into the right direction, and stuff like that. I always stop and ask, "Hey, do you need help?" And sadly, usually people say, "No," and basically what they mean is: I would rather trust Google Maps than I would trust you, so please don't talk to me! But I think when that happened to me in the past, when someone said, "Hey, do you need help?" I always thought that was kind of, like, kind, and always said, "Yes, I'm looking for this place." Or even if I wasn't looking for a place, I would just say, "I'm visiting, and thanks so much and ... " whatever, which is strike up a conversation, because, yeah, that's really cool when people kind of welcome you into their city by saying, "Hey, do you need any help?"
Jae:
[36:31] Yeah, that's very true.
Manuel:
[36:33] How do you spot a tourist?
Jae:
[36:35] I spot a tourist, I think, yeah, definitely, I think, by the way they're looking up in their phone or whatnot. But then, once again, I'm new to the city, so I won't call myself a tourist but like I said, I'm looking up on my phone too, trying to figure out the directions. But sometimes I can spot a tourist sometimes in the negative sense. They're always going to be a little bit more loud, a little bit more obnoxious, sometimes..
Manuel:
[37:02] True, depending on where they're from. But yeah, some, yeah.
Jae:
[37:05] America! They're the worst! Yeah.
Manuel:
[37:10] And some other countries! But yeah, true, true. And especially in inappropriate places. Being loud is one thing, but sometimes, like in public transport for example, I mean there's countries that are way more to either extreme. So for example, in Japan you can be on a subway car and it is completely packed, and it is quiet. No one is saying anything because it would be rude, and it's just quiet. So Germany is not that either. But then there's other countries ... So for example, I was on a few buses in China and I was just surprised by the noise level. People would talk so loudly. And I think Germany is somewhere in the middle, where you can have a conversation, but you are still kind of aware that there's other people and they shouldn't be able to hear every single word, usually.
Jae:
[38:05] But then though, I will conflict on my own point, because sometimes the locals are the loudest ones. Like drunk locals, they'll be ... Like I've been on the subway late at night and the drunk locals are the ones who are the most loud. So yeah, I mean, I guess it is very hard to spot, but then at that, since I know that they are locals, you know, they're also speaking German or whatnot, so I guess, honestly, I identify tourists by the way they're talking. Like if they're speaking English or German, and then also, I guess, like also how comfortable they are in their environment as well.
Manuel:
[38:46] Although I would say there's a lot of people speaking English in Berlin, and the people who are tourists and the people who live here have a different way of talking. Like I feel like two couples speaking English, I can usually tell who's here, and who is just visiting.
Jae:
[39:03] Fair. Interesting. Now is there anything, as a local in Berlin, as someone who's lived here a long time, that you, aside from them walking on the bike path, things that you don't like tourists to do?
Manuel:
[39:17] One big cliché, which I don't experience where I live, but I kind of understand how some people who live kind of in touristy areas would complain about this, is the suitcases. Like the suitcases going over cobblestone, basically, because some streets really have cobblestone or some other surface that's not smooth, and then you have these hordes of tourists with their little suitcases that they're just like dragging behind them, and it just goes: Kghghghgh, ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-da-ta-ta-ta-ta! ...
Jae:
[39:48] Bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump bump!
Manuel:
[39:53] ... and how that would be annoying. On the other hand, I mean, I used to be ... like I traveled around the world with just a backpack and was a huge believer in it, but I also ... I've warmed up to suitcases, I mean especially if you're trying to bring a lot of stuff for some reason, suitcases with rollers are pretty nice.
Jae:
[40:14] Yeah, digressing, but I definitely like backpacks more than suitcases, but suitcases definitely have had their benefits sometimes. And I'm kind of regretting not having a suitcase sometimes, especially when you do end up having more stuff that you don't realize. But I love the backpack lifestyle though, that's the true backpacking. People don't call it suitcasing!
Manuel:
[40:39] First of all that. And then also. you can run upstairs and not worry about ... like that's just such an unseemly image of, basically, anyone trying to carry their ...
Jae:
[40:45] Yes.
Manuel:
[40:54] ... suitcase up a lot of, like seven floors upstairs. It's just not great.
Jae:
[40:59] Exactly, exactly. But yeah, to sum up my points, I definitely encourage people to still ... I encourage ...
Travel Like a Local, Live Like a Tourist
[41:08] You know, this is what I do. I encourage tourists to live like locals, and locals to live like tourists. I think that if you live in the city for long enough, you should still try to have that same excitement as you would if you were touring the city. And also, if you're touring, you still have the excitement of being a local and trying to do things that locals would do, like that will just give you that extra oomph of the city lifestyle that, you know, you might fall in love with it, you know.Manuel:
[41:36] That's a great point, and it sounds like a cliché but it's actually it's a really good rule to live by. Because something that I really catch myself not doing, is experiencing the city. And especially if I'm, you know, on a Sunday where I'm taking some time off work and and the weather is beautiful, it's just so easy to stay at home or stay in your neighborhood and do nothing. And that's also fine and has its place, but it's so easy to go to some amazing place in Berlin that you've never seen, and it takes you two hours because you just cycle there and then you cycle back. And it's such a low-hanging fruit, and you get to be a tourist and and experience this thing that people pay thousands of dollars for and fly halfway around the world for, and you can just do it spontaneously on a Sunday, so you should do more of it. So I think you're absolutely right, in terms of having kind of the opposite mindset of the default.