Show Notes
- Cost of living in Berlin, and Germany (All About Berlin)
- Cost of Living in Berlin (Numbeo)
- Leipzig (Wikipedia)
- Compare gas, electricity and internet plans
- Find out how much money gets deducted from your paycheck
- brutto-netto-rechner.info
- Church tax in Germany (Wikipedia)
- Transportation
- BVG monthly ticket
- Bolt (referral link)
- WeShare (referral link)
- Bahn
- Flixtrain
- Vinted App
- You Need A Budget
Transcript
Manuel:
[0:09] Money!
Jae:
[0:10] Money! Money, money, money, money, money, money!
Manuel:
[0:11] We have to talk about money. I kind of can't wait to get over these kind of necessities, over these boring topics that you have to deal with. Like I want this podcast to be fun, you know. I want it to be inspiring, and about interesting stories, and ...
Jae:
[0:29] Mm hmm. Isn't budgeting fun?
Manuel:
[0:34] Budgeting is fun in a way, yes, we're both nerds like that, but also, how much money do you need to survive in Berlin? Well, less than you need in Paris or London or New York.
Jae:
[0:47] Or New York, or LA, even Austin. Less than you need in Austin, Texas.
Manuel:
[0:52] But more than you used to need, just even a few years ago.
Jae:
[0:57] Yeah. Obviously, startup costs I think are the biggest challenge with, I think, moving. And then figuring things out. I feel like when I first moved here, well in that first month I spent a lot more money than I thought I would. Of course, you know, my bike crashed. But when it comes to how much money you need to survive, I think it's really important to always consider the startup costs and always consider that things are going to go wrong. And to be fair, the more money you have, the easier your move will be, if I'm being blunt.
Manuel:
[1:33] Yeah, so startup costs basically, what you mean is one-time costs like buying furniture, which you will need to if you're moving into a regular apartment, because those aren't usually rented furnished. I mean there are furnished apartments, I think we talked about this, but the default is empty. There might be a sink, but that's about it! And then, like you mentioned, you need to buy a bike, if you didn't bring yours. What else?
Jae:
[2:02] Just money if things go wrong, or things that you don't even remember that you need.
Manuel:
[2:08] Want to remember!
Jae:
[2:09] Yeah! Like I think like there was like a lot of just extra necessities that I didn't realize that I was going to ... Realized ... Oh, which we didn't even put into here, but like aside from groceries, you have like bathroom supplies or whatnot, you know, you need shower gel, you need facecloths ...
Manuel:
[2:24] Well those are ongoing costs, so we'll get to those. But like one-time costs that you still ... like that you need to ... I guess your trip here, like even just moving, cost money right?
Jae:
[2:28] Yeah, exactly.
Manuel:
[2:35] If you bring stuff, you need to rent a car or hire a company.
Jae:
[2:38] Yeah. And then if you don't necessarily have a place to stay just yet, make sure you have enough money not only for rent, but also if you need to get a hostel or a hotel for a certain amount of time before then, which I was prepared to do at the beginning, the Uber or the train ride from the airport to wherever you're staying, paying for extra luggage if you need to, like those types of things that you might not think about until the moment comes, you know.
Manuel:
[3:09] And then if and when you found a place, not only will you have to pay rent, which we'll talk about, but you also usually need to pay a deposit ...
Jae:
[3:16] Mm hmm.
Manuel:
[3:17] ... a Kaution, in German, and that's usually two to three times the monthly rent.
[0:09] Money!
Jae:
[0:10] Money! Money, money, money, money, money, money!
Manuel:
[0:11] We have to talk about money. I kind of can't wait to get over these kind of necessities, over these boring topics that you have to deal with. Like I want this podcast to be fun, you know. I want it to be inspiring, and about interesting stories, and ...
Jae:
[0:29] Mm hmm. Isn't budgeting fun?
Manuel:
[0:34] Budgeting is fun in a way, yes, we're both nerds like that, but also, how much money do you need to survive in Berlin? Well, less than you need in Paris or London or New York.
Jae:
[0:47] Or New York, or LA, even Austin. Less than you need in Austin, Texas.
Manuel:
[0:52] But more than you used to need, just even a few years ago.
Jae:
[0:57] Yeah. Obviously, startup costs I think are the biggest challenge with, I think, moving. And then figuring things out. I feel like when I first moved here, well in that first month I spent a lot more money than I thought I would. Of course, you know, my bike crashed. But when it comes to how much money you need to survive, I think it's really important to always consider the startup costs and always consider that things are going to go wrong. And to be fair, the more money you have, the easier your move will be, if I'm being blunt.
Manuel:
[1:33] Yeah, so startup costs basically, what you mean is one-time costs like buying furniture, which you will need to if you're moving into a regular apartment, because those aren't usually rented furnished. I mean there are furnished apartments, I think we talked about this, but the default is empty. There might be a sink, but that's about it! And then, like you mentioned, you need to buy a bike, if you didn't bring yours. What else?
Jae:
[2:02] Just money if things go wrong, or things that you don't even remember that you need.
Manuel:
[2:08] Want to remember!
Jae:
[2:09] Yeah! Like I think like there was like a lot of just extra necessities that I didn't realize that I was going to ... Realized ... Oh, which we didn't even put into here, but like aside from groceries, you have like bathroom supplies or whatnot, you know, you need shower gel, you need facecloths ...
Manuel:
[2:24] Well those are ongoing costs, so we'll get to those. But like one-time costs that you still ... like that you need to ... I guess your trip here, like even just moving, cost money right?
Jae:
[2:28] Yeah, exactly.
Manuel:
[2:35] If you bring stuff, you need to rent a car or hire a company.
Jae:
[2:38] Yeah. And then if you don't necessarily have a place to stay just yet, make sure you have enough money not only for rent, but also if you need to get a hostel or a hotel for a certain amount of time before then, which I was prepared to do at the beginning, the Uber or the train ride from the airport to wherever you're staying, paying for extra luggage if you need to, like those types of things that you might not think about until the moment comes, you know.
Manuel:
[3:09] And then if and when you found a place, not only will you have to pay rent, which we'll talk about, but you also usually need to pay a deposit ...
Jae:
[3:16] Mm hmm.
Manuel:
[3:17] ... a Kaution, in German, and that's usually two to three times the monthly rent.
Jae:
[3:24] Which is ridiculous, by the way. I still don't agree with that at all. That is the most bizarre thing ever.
Manuel:
[3:29] How is it bizarre? I mean they want to make sure if you trash the place ...
Jae:
[3:33] But two to three times your ... like the rent! Like you're barely surviving with the rent itself, you know? So I think it's like, I don't know, it's pretty wild that you ... Like, let's say that rent is like €800, you at least need €2400 to just find a place, And then you also have to have more money, so you can pay the actual rent for the next few months after that, you know. Because let's say that the €2400 was supposed to be your rent for the next three months, now you have to wait to get another €2400 just so you're secure for those next few months.
Manuel:
[4:15] It's true. And also if and when you move, you will only get back your deposit after two or three months, and you will already have to pay the next one for the next place. So yes, all of these things are crazy expensive and you need to budget for them.
Jae:
[4:33] Yes, so I would like to add to that as one of necessity, not only rent, but save up for the deposit, and make sure that's a separate savings in the rent, just because you don't really want to have that pressure.
Manuel:
[4:48] Yeah and that money is gone. Like you will get it back when you move out, unless you trashed the place, but I mean essentially it's blocked forever. Yeah, so, but today we mostly wanted to talk about kind of the ongoing costs, like how much money do you need to earn, essentially, how much money do you need per month to survive in Berlin. And we will link to some articles and guides on the Web that have a lot of numbers, because obviously it's a range for all of these, but we'll kind of try to talk from our experience and give ballpark numbers.
Rent
[5:29] So rent I think is kind of the sad story here, because Berlin used to be cheap. And now it is still more affordable than some other major cities in Europe but it is expensive, it's gotten expensive. And if you live in some other really nice city like Leipzig, which is also hip and nice and big-ish, it's so much cheaper, and ...Jae:
[5:55] What's the city called?
Manuel:
[5:56] Leipzig. Not even far from here, it's like two hours from here. People call it "The New Berlin" because lots of young people, startups, like it's ...
Jae:
[5:58] Oh, nice.
Manuel:
[6:05] Many people consider it like an alternative to Berlin now, just because Berlin is getting so expensive.
Jae:
[6:10] Yeah.
Manuel:
[6:12] And I know several people now, who, for example, pay €600 for a room. And that is crazy! That's just crazy!
Jae:
[6:23] How much am I paying?
Manuel:
[6:25] I don't know. Do you want to share?
Jae:
[6:27] I'm paying €900 for my room, but I will say, it is also including electricity, internet, all those bills, furniture and a housekeeper, and I have my own bathroom.
Manuel:
[6:40] And a housekeeper and you have your own bathroom! So when I think of a room, it's usually, you know, you're sharing a bathroom with several other people, so yours is kind of a fancy room, but still, I mean that is crazy. So I think we explained this before. There's Kaltmiete and Warmmiete, so basically just the bare rent, and then like the cost that you need to pay for the house and the insurance for the house and all of those things, and I mean my apartment is €600 - hold on, I don't want to lie here - with all of that included.
Jae:
[7:17] Oh my God!
Manuel:
[7:18] So the Kaltmiete is €530 and then the Nebenkosten is €115. So I pay €640 for a 60 square meter apartment, not in the center-center-center of Berlin, but close enough. And that is a deal that is still ...
Jae:
[7:37] That's a great deal.
Manuel:
[7:38] Yes. It's still possible to find apartments like that. And I'm not sharing this to make anyone envious. I mean it was just very, very lucky. But be prepared to essentially pay that price for a room, and pay twice that, or even more, for a 60-square-meter apartment.
Jae:
[8:00] And quick reminder for people who are just tuning into this episode, where's the best place to find an apartment? Like what resources?
Manuel:
[8:10] Well, the internet. The Immobilienscout24 is like the big website, and then we talked about how connections are everything, and groups, and all of those things. Yeah, we did a whole episode on how to find an apartment. But you need time and energy. And honestly, I mean if you're just starting out, you need to basically be willing to pay a little bit more, at least in the beginning.
Jae:
[8:37] Yeah. Which is ... That's I would say goes back to the start up costs. I mean, like I said, I'm paying €900 and no, that's not the ideal, but I might stick with that. I think I might stick with that for this first year, just so I have more time to find a better solution. So I would recommend if you can pay the extra money, it might make things easier moving here, because you can probably find ... Like the more expensive it is, the more available it's going to be, and if you can just sacrifice that, then you can save, and use a lot more time to find place where your rent is going to be a lot lower.
Manuel:
[9:21] Yeah. So I would say budget about €600 for a room, budget €1200 and up for an apartment, and also ... The thing is, though, that there's kind of a rule of thumb in Germany that landlords also use to make decisions, I think, that the rent should be under one-third of your salary. So if you're spending 50% of your salary on rent, obviously that's your decision, but it might be more difficult to get that apartment if there's another applicant who has a much higher income, you know, like they just want to be sure that you can afford it. So like one third of your income is, I think, the rule of thumb that they usually use.
Electricity, Gas, Internet, "TV Tax"
[10:14] So then we have the associated costs that you have with your apartment. You already mentioned you have to buy furniture in the beginning. That's a one-time thing, hopefully. But then electricity, gas, internet and the "TV Tax," Rundfunkbeitrag - it's not strictly speaking a tax but it's similar. So electricity, I mean, I think it depends. You can easily calculate it on these websites like Check24 and Verivox. Like there are these websites where you can compare the prices and try to find the cheapest one, and I would recommend doing that even though sometimes the city, like the default provider, is even the cheapest, but I would still, kind of run that comparison and check.Jae:
[11:08] Also keep in mind for like internet, if you want faster internet you're going to be paying a little bit more.
Manuel:
[11:12] Right. So just, as a quick overview, I think electricity for a two-person household would be between €50 and €60 a month, for a one-person household, maybe around €30 to €40. Gas is obviously exploding in price right now. It used to be €40 per month for me, and I think it's going to double now, so I think it's going to be around €80 per month. And it also depends on your heating situation. So in my apartment the heating is gas: heating and warm water is gas. Obviously if your heating is a different technology, then it will be less. If your cooking is also gas, then it will be more. So it depends, kind of. But I would say, these days probably €50 to €80 for gas. Internet, depending on the speed and all that, but probably around €30 a month. And then you have this "TV Tax" which every household has to pay, not every person but every household has to pay no matter what, and it's about €18 a month. So are we adding all of this up? We should be adding it up. So let's put €600 for rent - okay, so you picked a room, basically, or you've got a really good deal - and then electricity we'll say €30 - we'll go with a single person here - gas we'll say €50, internet we'll say €30, TV Tax €18 or let's make it €20, so that leaves us ... How good is your math?
Jae:
[12:58] Um ... right now we're at €740.
Manuel:
[13:01] All right. Next, phone bill, which by that you meant like your cellphone, right?
Jae:
[13:11] Yes. Actually, I'm sorry. It was €730! I just have to clarify! My math was off! €730.
Manuel:
Jae:
[13:23] Because I know what someone listening can be like: Wait! You messed that up! You're welcome!
Manuel:
[13:29] They got €10 for free. They're like: Oh! I have €10 left over ... All right, €730.
Phone Bill
[13:35] The phone bill, it really depends on if you are crazy like Jae, and you go to Deutsche Telekom and get the most expensive one.
Jae:
[13:42] Hey, that was temporary. Now we're on Congstar and I pay like €20 a month.
Manuel:
[13:48] Great. Yeah, we talked about that already. I think, yeah, you can spend anywhere between €10 and €100 a month, but I think €20 is a good number. So let's make it €20. So that puts us at €750. Banking, we had a wonderful episode, and it should be free most of the time, depending on the bank you go with, there's definitely free options that we mentioned, or if not, it's around €10 a month probably.
Insurance
Manuel:
[14:19] Insurance, so you need health insurance.It's actually illegal. So I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding. It's not that you're automatically insured in Germany, or that it's impossible not to be insured, but rather it's illegal not to be insured. So you can, by essentially lying or tricking, end up in a situation where you're not insured, but you can actually be fined for that, because ...Jae:
[14:48] Must be nice, must be nice! I would rather be forced to get insurance, than in America where they really don't care.
Manuel:
[15:00] Right right. The system is much better than the American one. It could still be better because it's unfortunate, I think there's around 1% of people who aren't insured even though they should be, and that can obviously lead to very unfortunate situations. But definitely don't get yourself in a situation where you are one of these people. Definitely, definitely, definitely get health insurance. There are these kind of like health insurances for expats that you can get when you just get here, that cover like the bare minimum that you need for your visa and stuff. But as soon as you have a job you should go into like the public health insurance system, and it kind of feels like it's free because you never see the money, but it's obviously not free. So it's basically the system is, if you're employed the system is 50-50, so your employer pays 50% and you pay 50%, and how much you pay depends on your salary. But overall it is like once you actually see and understand the number, you're like: Oh, that's how much I pay for health insurance. Like it's several hundred euros every month that you pay. It just doesn't feel like it because you never see that number really. I mean you see it on your salary slip.
Jae:
[16:23] So if insurance is like total €300 then you'll be paying €150?
Manuel:
[16:29] Right? And those €150 are deducted from your salary, so they never touch your bank account.
Jae:
[16:35] Yeah. What is like if you have like a specific number for average, what's the average that's typically deducted from ... ?
Manuel:
[16:43] Well there's a good website called, Brutto-Netto-Rechner, and it helps you basically see, if, for example, you sign a work contract, and they tell you: Okay, your salary will be, let's say €2,500 per month. Then you have to add some additional information, like your Steuerklasse, which if you're not married and just like - yeah you can look up the different Steuerklasse - but like the default is 1; and you live in Berlin; and let's say - how old are you? let's say, 24, wow, that's young! - you're 24 years old; you don't have any children; and then you can kind of get the calculation. And so it says €2500 on your work contract. But you end up getting €1,726.
Jae:
[17:38] What?!
Manuel:
[17:39] And then you can see where all that money goes. So €265 is tax, and then €232 is pension insurance, and €30 is unemployment insurance, and then about €250 is the health insurance and Pflegeversicherung, which is similar, it's if you need, basically, a caretaker, so €250. So that means that it's actually €500 that you're paying, except half of it is paid by your employer and half of it is paid by you. So and that is like if your salary is higher than that, it'll be much more, because the percentage that you pay out of your salary for health insurance goes up the more you earn, which is fair. So yes, health insurance, it's ... I mean we're not really, I think, budgeting for it here because it just gets deducted from your salary anyway.
Jae:
[18:45] That's a lot. But definitely keep that in mind, because now I'm thinking about my own budget, I'm like: Oh wait!
Manuel:
[18:53] Yes, I think the big difference to some other countries, is that the salary that's on your work contract is not the salary, nowhere near the salary, that you will receive every month, because we do pay a lot of taxes, and we have this system where the health insurance gets deducted right away. If you are self-employed, or not employed, then you need to pay health insurance yourself. And honestly it's a little bit out of my wheelhouse, it gets more complicated: if you're unemployed and you receive benefits, then the state pays for it, I think - don't quote me on this, but pretty much - and if you are self-employed, you need to pay for it yourself. And it is a lot of money. Like I think one of the biggest hurdles to becoming self-employed in Germany is this health insurance. And one of the main reasons many people try to at least have a part-time job as an employee, is because then the health insurance is taken care of. If you are one hundred percent self-employed, you need to pay it yourself. That is a big chunk of your income that you're paying.
Jae:
[20:00] And does self-employed also mean like a freelancer as well?
Manuel:
[20:05] If that's all you do, yes, then you're self-employed. Absolutely. And then there's liability insurance, that's really the only other one that you really need. It's not ... you're not legally ... it's not like health insurance where it's illegal not to have it, but it can basically destroy you if you don't have it, if you have like one major accident that you caused somehow. So you need to get it, and it's only €5 a month or €10 a month, so you should get it.
Taxes
[20:30] So taxes, we talked about those, are deducted mostly from your salary. You still need to do your taxes, and usually if you're employed you get some money back.You could also end up paying. It depends on your situation. And yeah, insurance is ... it depends, but if you're employed, it's relatively simple.Jae:
[20:54] This is a small tangent, but can you talk about church tax? Because that was such an interesting thing for me to hear about.
Manuel:
[21:05] Yes, that is curious. So basically, in Germany, if you are a member of the church, the Christian Catholic church, then ... and I think the Protestant church as well, I'm really no expert on this because I left the church when I was 18, but basically the state, even though we have a separation of church and tax, the state basically then deduct a church tax from your salary, and it goes to the church. And the way it is calculated is ... I don't have the exact rule in front of me but we can enter this in this calculator that I mentioned. We can just say: Yes, I am in the church. And then we will see how much you end up paying.
Jae:
[22:04] I also heard from a friend that even if you don't go to church, unless you state that you're leaving the church, then they're going to keep deducting it from you. And then they also said that it's also difficult to ... like they don't make it easy to claim that you're leaving.
Manuel:
[22:22] Right, right. No, no you need to make an appointment to leave.
Jae:
[22:25] Yeah, but it's easy to join the church when it is ...
Manuel:
[22:27] It's like any contract. It's like any subscription, you know. That you pay for it.
Jae:
[22:32] Yeah, that's so crazy to me though.
Manuel:
[22:35] Yes. So in our example, if you earn €2500, then the church tax is around €24 a month. So it's not crazy, you know, but it's definitely money that you're paying, and if you want to leave the church then you will stop paying this. It's a curious system. Totally. But yeah, we should mention it. You need to budget for it if you want to be in the church.
Transportation
[23:07] So then we have transportation, which, it obviously depends on how you like to get around town. We talked about bicycles, and we talked about how much it costs to buy a bike, and you should probably budget for bike repairs and stuff. Then there is public transportation, which in Berlin is run by the BVG, the Berliner Verkehrsgesellschaft. And right now, as we record this in June 2022, there is this €9 ticket that was decided by the government, so for three months in June, July, and August of 2022 you can get a ticket for €9 and use the public transport anywhere in Germany. But that is a very special thing and a special deal, and normally a ticket for the Zones A and B in Berlin, a monthly ticket is €86. And the monthly ticket makes sense, I think if you use the subway four or five days a week two ways, basically. I think that we ... You know, you can look at the prices and calculate if it makes sense for you. It never made sense for me personally because I always use my bike unless it's really raining, but yeah, many people get the monthly ticket and it's like €86.Jae:
[24:34] And I mean you can do this, I can't legally recommend it, but if you don't want to pay for a ticket, just make sure that you budget for the possibility of getting caught not paying for a ticket, and that fee is generally around €60.
Manuel:
[24:53] Yes, not a good strategy though in the long run, because even if you come out ahead by not paying, first of all, you will live in a constant state of fear, which is really not worth it, and secondly, it's not that you can ... The reason why you could even come out ahead is because in Berlin you can just get on the subway without showing a ticket, like there's no system like in many other cities where you need to go through some kind of entrance and show your ticket. But if you get caught, I think, three times in a row, then it's an actual criminal offence, and you then have to pay much more and could potentially go to prison if you can't pay, which is insane and needs to be changed, but there are literally people in jail for like 23 months at a time because they didn't have a ticket. And it's a horrible system because it obviously, dis-appropriately or literally only affects people who can't pay for tickets, and I think transportation is kind of a human right. I don't know if it's literally a human right, but getting around your own city should be possible for everyone, even if they can't afford the ticket. But that's just me. I mean there's also some initiatives that basically want to make public transport within the city, ticketless, to where the costs are covered by taxes and everybody can just use public transport. I think that is a good idea and we should go in that direction, But currently you do need to buy a ticket, and it's about €3 for a single ticket, and about €90 for a monthly ticket. And if you get caught, it's €60, and then a lot of trouble if you get caught several times. So, just don't do it, I think.
Jae:
[26:46] One thing that I added to the transportation was like getting Uber or like a rideshare. Generally the rideshares here are pretty reasonably priced. I mean they average from as low as €3 to like as high as like €12, and this is not sponsored but there's a really great app. it's called Bolt. And Bolt is just like another rideshare that's like free now or whatnot. But Bolt is by far the cheapest. Like every ride I've gotten is like €3 to €4, and they're always having like promotions and whatnot. So I definitely recommend getting Bolt. It's a really good, good thing and we'll have in the show notes because I think if you're invited to it, you also get, I think, like a promotion as well. But I mean, like I average personally €30 to €50 just for like rideshares or whatnot, just because there's nights if you're going out where it's rainy or you don't really want to get the tram or you don't want to walk, or whatnot. So I just have a little bit of security in that sense.
Manuel:
[27:59] Interesting. Yeah, I almost never used these services because if it's raining or I'm with a group, I usually use carsharing, which there's also a million companies now. The one that I usually go with, because it's fully electric, is WeShare. And it's like not cheap, it's somewhere between 20 and 30 cents per minute. So if you're just doing it in instead of public transport, then it will be a lot of money. But sometimes, especially if you're in a group, if you're three or four people and you just need to go across town, it could actually be cheaper. And obviously, if it's raining, it's easier. And also there are these scooters now electric scooters like Emmy and Felyx and Tier, so I often use those. Those cost the same, more or less, than the cars, but you don't need to find parking. So in the end it's usually cheaper because you can just leave it on the sidewalk. And so yeah, those are all good options if you have a license, and those are things that you need to budget for. But I would say ... Yeah, what's a good average for transportation if you're using some kind of mix between all of these things?
Jae:
[29:17] I would say average at least probably €60 to €70 a month. And the good news is, it's like if you don't use all that at the month, you can like carry that over to the next month. But I think just to be more secure, and for you to have that freedom and flexibility, if you all of a sudden do want to get train ticket, or you do want to use like a ridesharing thing, then you're a lot more secure.
Manuel:
[29:44] Makes sense. And then don't, just don't get your own car in Berlin. I mean, if you really, really need to because you have a family, or you need to travel out outside of Berlin all the time, obviously look into it, but it's really expensive and difficult and a hassle to have a car in Berlin, and ...
Jae:
[30:05] Unless - this is another tangent - you're getting a Vespa.
Manuel:
[30:10] The Vespas are good, and you can lease them, and if you like, it will be cheaper to lease a Vespa or like an electric Vespa, than using these electric scooters. I'm not talking about the little scooters that you stand on. Like an electric Vespa, if you do that like every day, all the time, then it's probably cheaper just to lease one and just to have one. Totally. So transportation, we're putting €70 in our little calculation.
Groceries
[30:44] So groceries. Groceries, you can save a lot of money by going to the discount supermarkets. I always kind of, it's weird. I always kind of forget it, and every time I go to Lidl, first of all I'm like blown away by how many vegan products they have these days and like how ... Because in my childhood these kind of Aldi, Lidl, Penny supermarkets were a little dirty always, and a little ... like you really felt like: Okay, I know why it's cheaper, like ...Jae:
[31:15] Yeah, it's like a Walmart if you're from America ... but worse.
Manuel:
[31:19] But worse. But now it's not like that anymore. Like they're really pretty nice, like they save money on having very little staff, like if you need help if you need someone to point you to the right aisle, forget it! There's no one! And if you see someone, they're just rushing by you. There's very little staff and the products, like they have a lot of like no-name products and copies of products and stuff like that, and it's not as fancy kind of in terms of the interior design than Rewe, and stuff like that. But yeah they're much cheaper, and the products are often very good.
Jae:
[31:55] So is Lidl a discount store?
Manuel:
[31:57] Yeah. Lidl ... So the big discounters are Lidl, Aldi, Netto, Penny. I think Lidl and Aldi are like the good ones, like the fancier ones, and then Penny and Netto still feel ... still have that very kind of ...
Jae:
[32:11] Mm hmm. They do. There's one right by my place and it's very hit-or-miss on the products, too, that you get there.
Manuel:
[32:17] Yeah. But Lidl, man, I was surprised they also have an online shop and I - little tangent here - but I recently bought a electric grill for my balcony, and I did some research. And the best one is made and sold by Lidl and you can only get it online, and I bought it, and it's great and it's super cheap. And so, yeah. I've been converted!
Jae:
[32:45] And then, the other ones are Rewe, Edeka, Kaufland and then BioMarkt.
Manuel:
[32:55] Ah well, yeah, so the Bio is like, organic, Bio means organic. And then there's BioLand, which is one of the organic food supermarkets. There's some other ones. Yeah those will be basically the most expensive. So like Rewe, Edeka, Kaufland, those are like normal. And then if you go to these organic food supermarkets like Bioland and - what's the other one called? I can't remember now - but I mean you can tell.
Jae:
[33:23] There's also Veganz. So I would also just say that it really does depend on your lifestyle and your eating habits that will determine how much you need to budget for. I was budgeting €150 and that seemed to not be enough, just because I'm now eating more at home than I am eating out, so now I raised my budget to €200, and that's not including getting all organic or whatnot, you know, I've been like kind of just switching back and forth. But then also keep in mind that it's not like ... you're starting ... this is ... grocery still counts as like a startup cost, you know, because not all groceries you're going to be getting every single time. Let's say that you're getting butter or olive oil or whatnot, you're not going to have to buy that ...
Manuel:
[34:13] But they run out, I mean ...
Jae:
[34:14] Yeah, yeah, they definitely do, but I mean depending on how much you use, you're not going to be getting it every single time you go out to the grocery store.
Manuel:
[34:21] True, But I think €200 is a good number. It really depends. I mean, yeah, I mean I used to never cook and basically just go out to eat all the time, and that obviously is much more expensive, like you save on the groceries, but the next category will be more. But if you have like a healthy mix of cooking quite a lot, like maybe one meal on average per day, and then going out - or one to two meals and then going out - €200 is probably a good average. And you can spend less if you really try to stretch that money.
Jae:
[34:59] So right now we are - and this is excluding that insurance that will be the deducted - we're at €1030 so far.
Eating Out
Manuel:[35:10] That's good. So then let's add eating out, which I think, I would still consider that a necessity because there's no way to live in Berlin and never go out.
Jae:
[35:19] Exactly.
Manuel:
[35:20] Obviously you can really make a difference in terms of how often you go out to eat. But I would say, I mean twice a week I would really say is a necessity. Like does anybody go out less than twice a week?
Jae:
[35:31] No.
Manuel:
[35:32] Am I just crazy? Because I feel like I go out ...
Jae:
[35:37] Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I'm like, I go out probably ... And I would say for eating out, I mean like don't limit yourself. Be realistic, you're new to a city, you're going to be meeting people, and the best way to meet people, you know, is by going out. You're not going to be cooking for your friends all the time unless you're that type of person. I budget €150 a month for eating out because that is, well, one of my biggest priorities. Well, I budget maybe €80 to €150. It does range a lot.
Manuel:
[36:10] Okay, but hey, okay, let's say three times a week And let's say you're spending €15 on average because you're getting a meal and a drink each time, and there are 4.3 weeks per month, on average. So that's three times 4.3, times €15, that is €193. So let's let's put €200 for eating out. And obviously, you know, there's some opportunity to save money here, but I just think it's realistic because you make friends, even if you really want to save money and stuff, you make friends, and if you have a job you will go out with your colleagues, like it's just you're going to go and eat, you know.
Jae:
[36:52] Yeah. And why limit yourself, you know? Don't be the person who says, No. Be the person who says, Yes!
Manuel:
[36:58] I mean, yes, and there's so many good restaurants. And overall this is really ... I'm still surprised, like Berlin is getting so expensive but then we're right in the center of Berlin right now and there are some restaurants here where you still have the lunch menu, and it's like €8 for the lunch menu.
Jae:
[37:15] Yeah, which is actually pretty good. Yeah.
Banking
[37:18] The other thing that I just wrote down was ATM fees, because everybody loves to use cash here for some reason.And even though I thought like Europe was a lot more card-friendly, most of the places that I have been to require cash. And thankfully my bank, I have free withdrawals, but not every bank does. Or every bank is limited, so you maybe only get three free withdrawals. So if you're constantly going out to eat, you're going to need cash.Manuel:
[37:51] Yes. I would still suggest don't budget for ATM fees, just pick a bank where it's free. But yeah, we talked about that in the banking episode. I mean, yeah, just try to avoid those fees. But we can add ... I don't know, how much do you spend on ATM fees?
Jae:
[38:06] I don't spend anything ...
Manuel:
[38:07] You don't. You don't, because you've got the Platinum Card - as we all know!
Jae:
[38:09] Yeah! But I would just say, I mean, like I don't know how much the fee bill is, maybe like €3? So I mean if you're getting money out each week, I would say maybe just €12 to €20. Let's just put €20.
Manuel:
[38:23] Well, if you have this limit on free withdrawals, just make sure you get enough to not have to pay these fees.
Jae:
[38:31] Yeah.
Manuel:
[38:32] Okay. So where are we at? Because this is, I think, the end of our necessities list. We still have some non-essentials that you should budget for, but ...
Jae:
[38:39] So on average we're at around €1200. And then if you're thinking about health insurance then you're going to want to be mindful of that. So maybe €1400 goes to like all of the essentials.
Manuel:
[38:57] Yeah, so that feels right to me. I think if you have €1200 available per month, you can comfortably live in Berlin. And I think you can obviously get away, or get by, with less. And, for example, we can just look at the Hartz IV Satz, so basically the amount of money you get from the state if you are unemployed, and it is currently €450. That doesn't include rent, because rent will be paid, and doesn't include insurance and those things, but basically everything like groceries and things like that, you will have to pay from that. And that is obviously the absolute, absolute bare minimum, and some people say it's really below the minimum and it should be higher. But yes, I would say €1,200 you can comfortably get by with. Well if we set €600 for the room, so that basically leaves you with more or less this minimum. So I think €1200 is realistic, but much less than that, you'll be in trouble. If you have more than that, then great, you can kind of have a better quality of life. Non-essentials, things you might want to spend money on every month on top of this.
Having a Dog
[40:22] One thing that I saw, that I didn't even think about, on this website, All About Berlin, that we mentioned before, is costs if you have a dog. Because you have to pay insurance and the dog tax, and obviously you get need to get food and stuff like that. So it's at least €50 a month to have a dog that you should budget for.Going Out & Drinks
[40:49] And then you wrote down: Going out, something that I'm now too old for and don't know anything about. How much is it to go out?Jae:
[40:57] I mean club entry ranges from €10 to €20.
Manuel:
[41:02] That's still pretty cheap, right? I bet you it's more expensive.
Jae:
[41:05] Yeah, I mean it is, but it can add up, you know, I think that's the issue. Because let's say you're going out to a club, Friday and Saturday, and that's already maybe €10 to €20 and then you're doing that each weekend, that can get you up to like €120 or whatnot. Music events depends on where you're going to, but that may be €10 to €20, depending on what type of music event you're going to.
Manuel:
[41:33] Yeah, I mean if you're talking about concerts, it's much more. I mean, small bands would be €30, big bands €100 or more.
Jae:
[41:43] Yeah. And then just other activities, I don't know, maybe rock climbing or like swimming or whatnot, that will probably be much cheaper, like maybe going to a museum or whatnot. I think on average I would at least budget maybe €100 for just going out a month.
Manuel:
[42:05] Yeah, I agree. I mean ...
Jae:
[42:07] And really that just depends on your lifestyle.
Manuel:
[42:10] Yeah, but I would set aside like €100 for like fun money just to spend on the city. There's a lot of opportunity to save money just by, for example, figuring out what days are free for museums, which, there are days, and sometimes clubs, if you get there early it might be cheaper, things like that. And there's also so many free events and free places that you can have a good time at in Berlin. I mean you mentioned parks before we started recording, but there's also like parties and stuff that are just free. So yeah, but it's nice to have some money set aside for just fun.
Jae:
[42:52] How much should you budget for drinks?
Manuel:
[42:55] I don't drink. It's just part of my fun fund money. I mean, I have cocktails every now and then, and I would say at a good cocktail cocktail bar, it's about €8 to €10 for like a good drink. But you can also get a beer at a Späti for €2.
Jae:
[43:17] Yeah. I would maybe budget, once again, €100 for drinks, because the way I like to go out ...
Manuel:
[43:24] All right!
Gym
Jae:[43:27] And then for the gym, or like sports, on average, what I've been seeing is, depending on where you want to go, like going like a McFit you can maybe pay €15 to €20. If you want to go to someplace like John Reed, you can be playing up to €40. So I would say maybe just budget around €35 for a gym if that is important to you.
Clothes & Shopping
Jae:[43:52] And then clothes and shopping. That's one of my favorite things to do.
Manuel:
[43:58] That so depends on the kind of person you are, right? Like how how much do you need? And there's also really good ways to buy secondhand clothes, like the flea markets, and there's this app now, Vinted, that you can really cheaply buy secondhand clothes. But I don't know. How much money do you spend? I hate going shopping. Like this is really to my advantage, like I only do it when I'm forced to, I really need something new.
Jae:
[44:29] Yeah, like it really does depend. Like I have periods where I go shopping, where I just collect a lot of clothes, and then I don't go shopping again for a very long time because I'm like I have my style or whatnot. But I would say maybe very small, maybe like €50. It just really does depend on your shopping style and whatnot. I'm not one that likes to go shopping that much, but if you see something that you like, you know, treat yourself. So I say €15, okay, treat yourself.
Manuel:
[44:55] Treat yourself! The sub line of this podcast! Okay, so let's put €50. And I mean I agree. I feel like the money that clothes cost are more or less the same in many countries. Like even in lower income countries, if you go to like a mall and you go to an H&M, it's like: Oh, the price is pretty much the same, and the same with higher income countries. And since Germany is a higher income country, it's not going to be that big of your budget unless you're like a fashionista and you want new stuff all the time.
Jae:
[45:36] Yeah. Plus there's places like Primark where you can get pretty fairly ..
Manuel:
[45:41] Don't, don't buy at Primark, Primark or whatever it's called. They're evil. They're really trying to whitewash their image now, but they're pretty bad, I think.
Jae:
[45:52] I'm kinda guilty that my entire outfit is from there! That's a fair point.
Manuel:
[46:01] This episode is not sponsored by Primark! I mean there's cheap places, but yeah, I would obviously recommend secondhand over these like super cheap clothes stores.
Traveling
Jae:[46:10] And last but not least, we have traveling.
Manuel:
[46:14] It's not really part of living in Berlin, right? But I guess if you move to Berlin, especially from abroad, you want a budget for traveling around Germany.
Jae:
[46:25] Yes, because that was one thing I did forget to budget for, and now I don't feel like I'm stuck in Berlin, but definitely it's gonna take me a minute before I save up some money to just like go to a different city or whatnot. Especially now there's a €9 ticket.
Manuel:
[46:42] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and the thing is that unfortunately we have a good network of trains, and a good system ... I mean it could be better, and Switzerland laughs at us for having such a bad system, but then compared to some other countries it's pretty good, but it's expensive. Like if you want to go to Munich from Berlin on short notice ... So let's say we decided: Hey let's go to Munich this weekend, so tomorrow, and we want to obviously take a fast train, right? We want to take the ICE. So one way, just to go there would be almost €200: €170. And it can be much much cheaper if ...
Jae:
[47:31] Just to go? Just one way?
Manuel:
[47:33] Just to go, just one way on the train Munich-Berlin, Berlin-Munich, it's four-and-a-half hours and, it's €172. And there's tons of ways to make that cost go down. The first and foremost is to be early. Like you can book these tickets up to three months in advance and you can get tickets for €20 or €30. And then you can get a BahnCard, which is this yearly subscription where you then get 25% or 50% of a discount or 100%, but that's really expensive. And then there are some alternatives. So Flixbus, which is this long distance bus company that is incredibly cheap, they now have trains too, Flixtrain. And basically their trains are the old trains that the Bahn doesn't use anymore, and they paint them green and they just run them, and they're super super cheap usually, even if you are booking kind of short term. So there are ways to get around cheaper, especially if you're willing to sit on buses or to take these less than fancy trains, but in many other cases ... Or rideshares are a good way as well to get around. So there are cheaper methods. But yeah, the regular trains can get really expensive, and I mean it really depends on what you want to do, but it's not so cheap to get around Germany.
Jae:
[48:58] So maybe budget? I mean it really depends on what you're doing.
Manuel:
[49:03] Well let's say you want to take one trip every month to like one other city, to discover the rest of Germany.
Jae:
[49:09] Yeah. Mm hmm.
Manuel:
[49:10] I would say budget €300 for like one weekend trip per month. So where does that all leave us for these non-essentials in total?
Jae:
[49:25] Okay. In total, we have around €1,900.
Grand Total
Jae:[49:33] For non-essentials we have around €635, so average €600 to €700 for non-essentials. And once again, that's very, very, very optional.
Manuel:
[49:46] And very dependent on your lifestyle. But I thought it was a good exercise to go through all of these categories and try to find a number, because often I hear from people who are thinking about going to Berlin, or to Germany in general, and it's really hard for them to place these numbers, or to get an idea of how much it could cost. So I felt like this was probably a little bit boring overall, but hopefully helpful.
Jae:
[50:16] Really I've been there, so I thought this was so much fun. Also not sponsored again, if you guys need a great budgeting app, we recommend youneedabudget.com, YNAB, for short. They are a great budgeting system and which I've been using it for like almost a year now, and it has really helped me not really be worried about my money, and how I'm spending it as well.
Manuel:
[50:43] Yeah, I also got really into YNAB recently. I mean it's super, super nerdy and most people probably roll their eyes at us, but I agree. Like basically what we just did, like actually going through the categories and budgeting for it, doing that actually in a piece of software, first of all, it's kind of fun, and it just gives you that peace of mind like: Yes, you know, I've covered these expenses so now I can actually spent the rest on going out or buying clothes or whatever, because you kind of have an overview. And if you're just guessing and hoping that it will work out, it can end up unfortunately. And also like there's ... We talked a little bit about how like Germany doesn't have like this whole credit card culture where people get credit cards early on and then spend, you know, money on credit cards that they don't have. But there's these startups now and these companies like Klarna, I don't know if you've seen that often online? You can pay with Klarna and they have this option to like pay it later, pay it in six months, whatever, pay it in in instalments. Don't do it! Like this will just get you into trouble. And we talked to ...
Jae:
[51:52] Unless you are great at budgeting and you're great ...
Manuel:
[51:55] Unless you're great at budgeting, but even then, do you really want to give, like basically ... because it's basically a loan. It's basically, you know you're taking a loan from a private company and then even if you have the money, if you forget to pay it, or something goes wrong, then that will mess with your Schufa, which we already discussed is very important when getting an apartment and many other things. And I would just say in general, like, figure out your finances, budget conservatively. Make sure you don't spend more than you have because that could really get you into trouble in the long run.