How Much Money Do You Need to Survive in Berlin?

Transcript

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Jae:
[0:09] Money, money, money, money, money, money, money.

Manuel:
[0:09] Money, Money we have to talk about money. I kind of can't wait to get over these kind of necessities over these borrowing topics that you have to deal with.

Jae:
[0:18] Necessity. It is foreign.

Manuel:
[0:23] Like I want this podcast to be fun. You know, I wanted to be inspiring and about interesting stories and budgeting is fun in a way. Yes, we're both nerds like that.

Jae:
[0:27] Inspiring. Mhm. Is it budgeting? Fun, fun in a way. Yes.

Manuel:
[0:37] But also how much money do you need to survive in Berlin Well less than you need in paris or London or new york or L. A.

Jae:
[0:39] Much. Well, well, well well,
or new york or L. A. Even Austin less than any in Austin texas.

Manuel:
[0:50] Even asked them, but more than you used to need just even a few years ago.

Jae:
[0:56] Just, Yeah. Um Obviously, startup costs I think are the biggest um challenge with I think moving and then um figuring things out.
I feel like when I first moved here, well in that first month I spent a lot more money than I thought I would of course not my bike crashed or whatnot.
Um but when it comes to how much money you need to survive, I think it's really important to always consider the startup costs and always consider that things are going to go wrong and to be fair, the more money you have, the easier your move will be about being blind.

Manuel:
[1:33] Yeah, so startup costs basically. What you mean is one time costs like buying furniture, which you will need to if you're moving into a regular apartment because those aren't usually rented furnished.
I mean there are furnished apartments. I think we talked about this, but the default is empty, there might be a sink, but that's about it.
And then like you mentioned, you need to buy a bike if you didn't bring yours what else?

Jae:
[2:01] Um, just money. If things go wrong or things that you don't even run, remember that you need.

Manuel:
[2:03] Just money if things go wrong or things that you I want to remember.

Jae:
[2:09] Yeah. Like I think like there was like a lot of just extra necessities that I didn't realize that I was going to realized, oh, which we don't even put into here.

Manuel:
[2:14] They're really which we didn't even put into here, but like um groceries you have like that flies.

Jae:
[2:18] But like, um, aside from groceries, you have like bathroom supplies or whatnot, you know, neat shower gel. You need face bells. Yeah.

Manuel:
[2:24] No need showers. Well those are ongoing costs so we'll get to those but like one time costs that you still like that you need to I guess your trip here, like even just moving costs money right?

Jae:
[2:28] One time costs that you still, I guess your trip here.
Yeah, exactly.

Manuel:
[2:35] If you bring stuff, you need to rent a car or hire a company.

Jae:
[2:38] Yeah. And then if you don't necessarily have a place to stay just yet, you know,
make sure you have enough money not only for rent, but also if you need to get a hostile or like a hotel for a certain amount of time before then, which I was prepared to do at the beginning.
Um, the Uber or the train ride from the airport to wherever you're staying, um, paying for extra luggage if you need to, like those types of things that you might not think about until the moment comes. You know?

Manuel:
[3:09] And then if and when you found a place, Not only will you have to pay rent, which we'll talk about, but you also usually need to pay a deposit.

Jae:
[3:10] And then if and when no.
Right talk about. But you also mm hmm.

Manuel:
[3:17] So in German and that's usually 2-3 times the monthly rent, which is ridiculous.

Jae:
[3:20] That's usually science the month. Which is ridiculous By the way, I still don't agree with that at all.
That is the most bizarre thing ever. Yeah.

Manuel:
[3:29] How is it bizarre? I mean they want to make sure if you trash the place.

Jae:
[3:33] So if you trash, But 2-3 times you're like the rent, like you're barely surviving with the rent itself, you know?
Um, so I think it's like I don't know.
It's, it's pretty wild that you like, let's say that rent is,
Like 800 you at least need 2400 like euros to just find a place,
And then you also have to have more money,
so you can pay the actual rent for the next few like,
months, after that you know because let's say that the 2400 was supposed to be your rent for the next three months now you have to wait to get another 2400 just so you're secure for those next few months.

Manuel:
[4:15] It's true. And also if and when you move you will only get back your deposit after like two or three months and you already have to pay the next one for the next place.

Jae:
[4:16] If Mhm.
You will only get back.
Mhm. Yes, the next next place.

Manuel:
[4:27] So yes, all of these things are crazy expensive and you need to budget for them.

Jae:
[4:27] So yes, things are crazy expensive and,
yes, so I would like to add that as like one of necessity, not only rent but save up for deposit and make sure that that's a separate savings in the rent just because you don't really want to have that pressure.

Manuel:
[4:48] Yeah and that money is gone, like you will get it back when you move out unless you trashed the place, but I mean essentially it's blocked forever.
Yeah, so, but today we mostly wanted to talk about kind of the ongoing costs like how much money do you need to,
earn essentially how much money do you need per month to survive in Berlin and we will link to some articles and guides on the web that,
have a lot of numbers because obviously it's a range for all of these, but we'll kind of try to talk from our experience and give ballpark numbers so rent I think is kind of,

Rent

[5:31] the sad story here because Berlin used to be cheap,
and now it is still more affordable than some other major cities in europe but it is expensive, it's gotten expensive and if you live in some other really nice city like lipstick,
which is also hip and nice and big is it's so much cheaper and like not even far from here, it's like two hours from here.

Jae:
[5:55] What's the city called?
Oh, nice.

Manuel:
[5:59] People call it the new Berlin because lots of young people startups like it's many people consider it.

Jae:
[6:03] People start ups. It's many people consider no.

Manuel:
[6:07] Like an alternative to Berlin now just because Berlin is getting so expensive and I know.

Jae:
[6:10] Okay. So expensive. Yeah. I know Several people now who for example pay €600 for a room.

Manuel:
[6:14] Several people now who for example pay €600 for a room and that is crazy that that's just crazy.

Jae:
[6:19] And that is crazy.

Manuel:
[6:24] How much am I paying, I don't know do you want to share.

Jae:
[6:24] How much am I paying? I'm paying 900 for my room, but I will say it is also including um.

Manuel:
[6:29] From my room,
but I will say it is also right, oh like electricity and all those bills, furniture.

Jae:
[6:35] Like electricity entering all those bills, furniture and a housekeeper and I have my own bathroom.

Manuel:
[6:39] House and the housekeeper and you have your own bathroom.
So when I think of a room it's usually, you know, you're sharing a bathroom with several other people so yours is kind of a fancy room but still, I mean that is crazy.
So I think we explained this before. There's Kalamata and Van meter so basically just the bare rent and then the, the like the cost that you need to pay for the house and the insurance for the house and all of those things and,
I mean my apartment is,
um 600 € hold on. I don't want to lie here.
Um, with all of that included.

Jae:
[7:17] Oh my God! Under Navan cost.

Manuel:
[7:18] So the coyote meter is 530 and then the neighboring costing is 115.
So I pay like 644 a 60 square meter apartment, not in the center, center, center of Berlin but close enough.

Jae:
[7:26] Six 44 a 60 square meter apartment. Not in the center, center, center of Berlin But.

Manuel:
[7:33] Um, and that is a deal that is still, yes, it's still possible to find departments like that and I'm not sharing this to, I don't know make anyone envious envious.

Jae:
[7:35] And that is a deal. That's a great deal and I'm not sharing this two.
Make anyone envious, Envious. I mean it was.

Manuel:
[7:46] I mean it was just very, very lucky.

Jae:
[7:49] Uh huh prepared to essentially pay that price for a room and pay.

Manuel:
[7:49] Um, but be prepared to essentially pay that price for a room and pay twice that or even more for A 60 square meter apartment.

Jae:
[7:56] Twice that or even more for correct and quick reminder forever for people who are just tuning into this episode.

Manuel:
[8:03] Who are just tuning into this. Where's the best place to.

Jae:
[8:05] Where's the best place to find an apartment?
Like what resources?

Manuel:
[8:09] Resources. Well the internet, the Immobilien scout is like the big website and then we talked about how connections are everything and groups and all of those things.
Um yeah, we did a whole episode on how to find an apartment, but you need time and energy.
And honestly, I mean if you're just starting out, you need to basically be willing to pay a little bit more, at least in the beginning.

Jae:
[8:37] Mhm. Yeah. Which is that's I would say goes back to the start up costs and I mean, like I said, I'm paying €900 and no, that's not the ideal,
but I might stick with that, I think I might stick with that for this first year,
just so I have more time to, you know, find a better solution.
So like I would recommend if you can pay the extra money um it might make things easier moving here um because you can probably find like the more expensive it is, the more available it's going to be.
Um and if you can just sacrifice that, then you can save and use a lot more time to find uh place where your rent is going to be a lot lower.

Manuel:
[9:21] So I would say budget about €600 for a room budget 1000 200 and up for an apartment.
And also the thing is though that,
there's kind of a rule of thumb in Germany that landlords also used to make decisions, I think That the rent should be under 1/3,
of your salary.
So if you're spending 50% of your salary on rent, obviously that's your decision.
But it might be more difficult to get that apartment if there's another applicant who has a much higher income.

[10:05] Mhm You know like they just want to be sure that you can afford it.
So like one third of your income is I think the rule of thumb that they usually use so then we have the associated costs that you have with your apartment.

Electricity, Gas, Internet, "Tv Tax"

[10:20] You already mentioned you have to buy furniture in the beginning. That's a one time thing hopefully.
But then electricity, gas, internet and the tv tax rundfunk by truck. It's not strictly speaking attacks but it's similar.
So electricity. I mean, I think it depends, you can easily calculate it on these websites like check fiance nancy checked 24 very fox.
Like there are these websites where you can compare the prices and try to find the cheapest.

[10:52] One and I would recommend doing that even though sometimes the city like the the default provider is even the cheapest but I would still,
kind of run that comparison and check um,
I

Jae:
[11:08] Also keep in mind for like internet um if you want faster than that, you're going to be paying a little bit more.

Manuel:
[11:12] Bastard. Right? So just,
as like a quick overview, I think electricity for a two person household would be between 50 and €60 a month for one person household, maybe around 30 to 40.
Um, Gas is obviously exploding in price right now.
It used to be 40 per month for me.
Um and I think it's going to double now, so I think it's going to be around 80 per month.
Um and it also depends on your heating situation. So in my apartment the heating is gas heating and warm water is gas.
Obviously if you're heating is a different technology then it will be less.
If you're cooking is also gas then it will be more. So it depends kind of but I would say these days probably 50 to €80 for gas,
Internet Depending on the speed and all that, but probably around €30 a month And then you have this TV tax which every household has to pay.
Not every person, but every household has to pay no matter what and it's about €18 a month.

[12:27] So Are we adding all of this up?
We should, we should, we should be adding it up. So let's let's put 600 for rent.
Okay, so you picked a room basically or you've got a really good deal and then electricity will say 30, we'll go with a single person here.
Gas will say 50 Internet will say 30 TV text 18 or let's make it 20.
Um, so that leaves us. How good is your math?

Jae:
[12:58] Um, Right now we're at 740.

Manuel:
[13:00] Right now? We're at seven. All right, next phone bill, which by the human like your cellphone. Right? Actually, I'm sorry.

Jae:
[13:04] Next phone bill, which,

Phone Bill

[13:11] Yes, actually I'm sorry. It was 730. I just had to clarify my mouth was off 730 just.

Manuel:
[13:13] Really? I just had I trusted you bad bad decisions.

Jae:
[13:23] Because I know what someone listening and being like, wait, you mess that up, you're welcome.

Manuel:
[13:29] They got €10 for free. They're like, oh I have €10 left over.
Alright. 730 phone bill. It really depends on if you are crazy like Jay and you go to Deutsche Telekom and get the most expensive one.

Jae:
[13:34] Yes, definitely. The fundamental into it really depends on you are.
Yeah. Hey, that was temporary. Now we're on Kong star and I pay like €20 a month.

Manuel:
[13:44] Now we're in Kazakhstan.
Yeah. Great. Yeah, we talked about that already I think.
Yeah, you can spend anywhere between 10 and €100 a month, but I think 20 is a good number. So let's Let's make it 20. So that puts us at 700 50 banking.
We had a wonderful episode.
Uh and it should be free most of the time, depending on the bank you go with.
Um there's definitely free options um that we mentioned or if not it's around 10 years a month. Probably insurance is um so you need health insurance.

Insurance

[14:24] It's actually illegal. So I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding.
It's not that you're automatically insured in Germany or that it's impossible not to be insured, but rather it's illegal not to be insured.
So you can buy essentially lying or tricking end up in a situation where you're not insured,
but you can actually be fined for that because well, yeah, I mean, I would be forced to get insurance.

Jae:
[14:48] Must be nice must be nice. I would rather be forced to get insurance than and then in America where they really don't care.

Manuel:
[15:00] Right right. The system is much better than the American one.
It could still be better um because it's unfortunate.
I think there's like around 1% of people who aren't insured even though there should be and that can obviously lead to very unfortunate situations, but,
definitely don't get yourself in a situation where you are one of these people definitely definitely definitely get health insurance.
There are these kind of like health insurances for expats that you can get when you just get here, that cover like the bare minimum that you need for your Visa and stuff.
But as soon as you have a job you should go into like the public health insurance system and it's, it kind of feels like it's free because you never see the money but it's obviously not free.
So it's basically the system is If you're employed the 50, the system is 5050 so your employer pays 50% and you pay 50 and how much you pay depends on your salary.
But overall it is like once you actually see and understand the number, you're like oh that's how much I pay for health insurance, like it's several €100 every month that you,
it just doesn't feel like it, you can because you never see that number really.
I mean you see it on your salary slip Insurance is like total 300.

Jae:
[16:23] So if insurance is like total 300 then you'll be paying 1 50 Right? And those 100 from your salary.

Manuel:
[16:30] Right? And those 150 are deducted from your salary so you don't then they never touch your bank account.

Jae:
[16:35] Yeah. What is in the like if you're to have like a specific number for average, what's the average that's typically deducted from?

Manuel:
[16:44] Well there's a good website called bruto Nieto Krishna.
And it helps you basically see if for example you sign a work contract and they tell you okay your salary will be Let's say €2,500 per month.
Then you have to add some additional information like your story a closer which if you're not married and just like Yeah you can look up the difference by class but like the default is one.
And You live in Berlin and let's say how old are you?
Let's say 24 wow that's young, You're 24 years old, you don't have any Children.
And then you can kind of get the calculation and so it says 2500 on your work contract.
But you end up getting €1,726. And then you can see where all that number.

Jae:
[17:38] What?

Manuel:
[17:42] All that Money goes. So €265 is tax.
And then €232 is pension insurance.
And €30 is unemployment insurance. And then 200 about €250 is the health insurance and flag of Iran.
Which is similar. It's if you if you need um basically a caretaker.
So €250. So that means that it's actually 500 € that you're paying except half of it is paid by your employer and half of it is paid by you.
So and that is like if your salary is higher than that, it'll be much more because the percentage that you pay out of your salary for health insurance goes up the more you earn, which is fair.
So yes, health insurance, it's I mean we're not really, I think budgeting for it here because it just gets deducted from your salary anyway.

Jae:
[18:45] But definitely keep that in mind because now I'm thinking about my old budget, I'm like, oh wait!

Manuel:
[18:53] Yes, I think the big difference to some other countries is that,
the salary that's on your work contract is not the salary nowhere near the salary that you will receive every month because we do pay a lot of taxes and we have the system where the health insurance gets deducted right away.
Um If you are self employed or not employed, then you need to pay health insurance yourself.
And honestly it's a little bit out of my wheelhouse, it gets more complicated if you're unemployed and you receive benefits, then the state pays for it I think don't quote me on this, but pretty much,
and if you are self employed you need to pay for it yourself.
And it is a lot of money. Like I think one of the biggest hurdles to becoming self employed in Germany is this health insurance.
And one of the main reasons many people try to at least have a part time,
job as an employee Is because then the health insurance is taken care of if you are 100% self insured and you have to pay it yourself, that is a big chunk of your income that you pay that you're paying.

Jae:
[20:00] And does self employed also mean like a freelancer as well.

Manuel:
[20:05] If that's all you do. Yes, Then you're self employed. Absolutely. And then there's liability insurance that's really the only other one that you really need.
It's not, you're not legally, it's not like health insurance where you where it's illegal not to have it, but it can basically destroy you if you don't have it, if you have like one major accident that you caused somehow.
So you need to get it and it's only five years a month or 10 years a month. So you should get it.
So taxes, we talked about those are deducted mostly from your salary. You still need to do a ah you still need to do your taxes and usually if you're employed you get some money back.

Taxes

[20:43] You could also end up paying depends on your situation. And yes, insurance is, it depends, but if you're employed, it's relatively simple.

Jae:
[20:54] This is a small tangent, but can you talk about church tax because that was such a interesting thing for me to hear about.

Manuel:
[20:54] This is a small town.
Can you talk about church?
Yes, that was such an interesting thing. Yeah.
Yes, that is curious. So basically, in Germany, if you are a member of the church, the christian catholic church then And I think the Protestant church as well.
I'm really no expert on this because I left the church when I was 18.
But basically the,
the, the state, even though we have a separation of church and tax the state basically then deduct a church tax from your salary and it goes to the church.
And the way it is calculated is I don't have the exact rule in front of me, but we can end this in this calculator that I mentioned.
We can just say yes, I am in the church and then we will see how much you end up paying.

Jae:
[22:04] I also heard from a friend that like, even if you don't go to church unless you like, state that you're leaving the church, then they're going to keep deducting it from you.
And then they also said that it's also difficult to like, like they don't make it easy to claim that you're leaving.

Manuel:
[22:22] No, no you need to make an appointment to leave. Yeah. Yeah, it's like any contract, it's like any any subscription, you know that you pay for it.

Jae:
[22:24] Yeah, but it's easy to join the church when it is. Very.
Yeah. That's so crazy to me though, like.

Manuel:
[22:33] Yes.
So in our example if you earn 2500 Then the church text is around €24 a month.
So it's it's it's not crazy you know, but it's definitely money that you're paying and if you're if you want to leave the church then you will stop paying this.
Um it's a it's a curious system totally. But yeah, we should mention it.
Um you need to budget for it if you want to be in the church.

Transportation

[23:07] So then we have transportation which is, it obviously depends on how you like to get around town. We talked about bicycles and we talked about how much it costs to buy a bike and you should probably budget for bike repairs and stuff.
Then there is public transportation which in Berlin is run by the be foggy the bolena ideas.

[23:35] And right now as we record this in june 2022 there is this €9 ticket that was decided by the government.
So for three months in June July and August of 2022 you can get a ticket for €9 and use the public transport anywhere in Germany but that is a very special thing and a special deal,
and normally a ticket for the zones A and B.
In Berlin a monthly ticket is €86.
And the monthly ticket makes sense. I think if you use the subway four or 5 days a week,
two ways basically, I think that we, you know, you can look at the prices and calculate if it makes sense for you.
It never made sense for me personally, because I I always use my bike unless it's really raining.
Um, but yeah, many people get the monthly ticket and it's like 86.

Jae:
[24:34] And I mean you can do this, I can't legally recommend it,
but if you don't want to pay for a ticket, just make sure that you budget for the possibility of getting caught, not paying for a ticket, And that fee is generally around €60.

Manuel:
[24:53] Yes, not a good strategy though in the long run because,
even if you come out ahead by by not paying um first of all you will live in a constant state of fear, which is really not worth it,
and secondly it's not that you can um the reason why you could even come out ahead is because in Berlin,
you can just get on the subway without showing a ticket, like there's no system like in many other cities where you need to go through some kind of entrance and show your ticket,
but if you get caught, I think three times in a row then it's like an actual,
a criminal offense and you then have to pay much more and could potentially go to prison if you can't pay, which is insane and needs to be changed, but there are literally people in jail for like 23 months at a time,
because they didn't have a ticket um and it's it's a horrible system because it obviously,
this appropriately or literally only affects people who can't pay for tickets and I think transportation is kind of,
human rights, I don't know if it's literally a human right, but getting around your own city should be possible for everyone, even if they can't afford the ticket.

[26:11] But that's just me.
I mean there's also some some initiatives that basically want to make public transport within the city,
Ticketless to where the, where the costs are covered by taxes and everybody can just use public transport, I think that is a good idea and we should go in that direction,
But currently you do need to buy a ticket and it's about €3 for a single ticket and About 90 € for a month ticket.
And if you get caught at €60 and then a lot of trouble if you get caught several times, so just don't do it, I think.

Jae:
[26:46] One thing that I added to their transportation was like getting uh Uber or like a rideshare.
Um Generally the ride shares here are pretty reasonably priced.
I mean they averaged from as low as €3 to like as high as like €12 and this is not sponsored, but there's a really great app.
It's called bolt and bolts is just like another rideshare.
There's like free now or whatnot. But bolt is by far the cheapest like, like every right I've gotten is like 3 to €4 and they're always having like promotions and whatnot.
Um So I definitely recommend getting bold. Um It's a really good, good thing and we'll have in the show notes because I think like if you're invited to it, you also get like, I think like a promotion as well.
Um But I would average, I mean like I averaged personally 30-50 euros just for like white shares or whatnot.
Um Just because there's, you know, nights if you're going out or whatnot, where it's rainy or you don't really want to get the tram or you don't want to walk or whatnot. So I just have like a little bit security in that sense.

Manuel:
[27:59] Interesting. Yeah I almost never used these services because if it's raining or I'm with a group I usually use car sharing.
Which there's also a million companies now the one that I usually go with because it's fully electric is we share.
Um And it's like not cheap, it's around It's somewhere between 20 and 30 cents per minute.
So if you're just doing it in instead of public transport then it will you know the it will be a lot of money.
But sometimes especially if you're in a group if you're like three or four people and you just need to go across town it could actually be cheaper.
And obviously if if it's raining it's easier. And also there are these scooters now electric scooters like Emmi and Felix and tear.
So I often use those those costs the same more or less than the cars but you don't need to find parking. So in the end it's usually cheaper because you can just you know leave it on the sidewalk.
Um And so yeah those are all good options if you have a license and yeah those are things that you need to budget for.
But I would say yeah what's a good average for like transportation if you're using some kind of mix between all of these things.

Jae:
[29:17] I would say average at least probably 60-70 € a month. And the good news is it's like if you don't use all that at the month, you can like carry that over to like the next month or whatnot.
But I think just to be more secure and for you to have that freedom and flexibility, if you all of a sudden, do you want to get um, uh, train ticket or you don't want to use like a ride sharing thing, then you're a lot more secure? Yes.

Manuel:
[29:44] Makes sense. And then don't, don't, don't get your own car in Berlin I mean if you really, really need to because you have a family or you need to travel out outside of Berlin all the time.

Jae:
[29:46] And then don't do don't get your own car if you really, really need to because or,
Berlin.

Manuel:
[29:57] Obviously look into it, but it's really expensive and difficult and a hassle to have a car in Berlin and unless this is another tangent, Yes.

Jae:
[30:02] Perhaps, sorry,
unless this is another tangent, you're getting a vespa.

Manuel:
[30:11] The vast parts are good and you can, you can lease them and if you like, it will be cheaper to lease a vesper or like an electric,
vesper um, than using these electric scooters.
I'm not talking about the little scooters that you stand on like an electric vesper if you do that like every day all the time, then it's probably cheaper just to lease one and just to have one totally.
So transportation, we're putting €70 yeah, in our little calculation.
So groceries, groceries, you can save a lot of money by going to the discount supermarkets.

Groceries

[30:53] I always kind of, it's weird. I always kind of forget it and every time I go to leader.
First of all, I'm like blown away by how many vegan products they have these days.
And like how, because in my childhood these kind of algae, little Penny supermarkets were like a little dirty always and a little like you really felt like, okay, I know why it's cheaper like.

Jae:
[31:15] Yeah, it's like a walmart if you're from America, but they're actually really nice.

Manuel:
[31:19] But worse even, but now it's not like that anymore.
Like they're really, they they're pretty nice, they like, they save money on like having very little staff, like if you need help if you need someone to point you to the right, I'll forget, it there's no one,
and if you see someone they're just rushing by you like there's very little staff and the products like they have a lot of like no name products and copies of products and stuff like that and it's not as fancy kind of in terms of the interior design than,
riva and stuff like that.
But yeah they're much cheaper and the products are often very good.

Jae:
[31:55] So is little. A discount store discounters are the NATO, I think.

Manuel:
[31:57] Yeah. Little so the big discounters are little I. D.
NATO Penny I think little and I'd er like the good ones like the fancier ones and then Penny and Netto still feel still have that very kind of you.

Jae:
[32:06] Mm hmm West Benny and Metal. No. Mhm. They do. There's one right by my place and it's very hit or miss on the products to that you get there.

Manuel:
[32:15] It's very gelatinous. Yeah.
But little Man. I was surprised like they also have like an online shop and I little tangent here but I recently bought a electric grill for the for like my balcony,
and I did some research and the best one is made and sold by Leader and you can only get it online and I bought it and it's great and it's super cheap and so,
yeah I I,
been converted and then the other ones are mm the river Erica.

Jae:
[32:46] The other ones are riva, coffered Coughlin and then bio market.

Manuel:
[32:51] Those are the cow plant.
Bye. The b well yeah so the bill is like organic B.
O. Means organic and then there's BLM Land which is one of the like organic super organic food supermarkets. There's some other ones um yeah those will be basically the most expensive. So like and those are like normal.
And then if you go to these organic food supermarkets like Poland and what's the other one called?
I can't remember now, but I mean you can tell.

Jae:
[33:23] There's also vegans, so I would also just say that it really does depend on your lifestyle and your eating habits that um Will determine how much you need to budget for.
Um I was budgeting €150 and that seemed to not be enough um just because I'm now eating more at home than I am eating out.
Um so now I raised my budget to €200. Um and that's not including like getting all organic or whatnot, you know, I've been like kind of just switching back and forth.
Um But then also you keep in mind that not like you're starting this is grocery still counts as like a startup cost, you know, because not all groceries are gonna be getting every single time, let's say that you're getting like,
butter or like olive oil or whatnot, you're not going to have to buy that.

Manuel:
[34:13] But they run out. I mean yeah, they definitely do. I mean.

Jae:
[34:14] Yeah. Yeah, they definitely do, but like I mean depending on how much you use, you're not going to be getting it every single time you go out to the grocery store.

Manuel:
[34:20] Every single True, But I think 200 is a good number.
It really depends. I mean, yeah, I mean I used to never cook and basically just go out to eat all the time and that obviously is much more expensive.
Like you're safe on the groceries. But you the next category will be more.
But if you have like a healthy mix of cooking quite a lot, like maybe one meal on average per day and then going out or 1 to 2 meals and then going out,
Um €200 is probably a good average and you can spend less if you really try to stretch that money.

Jae:
[34:59] So right now we are and this is excluding that insurance that will be the deducted were at 1000 €30 so far.

Manuel:
[34:59] So right now we are and this is excluding that insurance, we're out €1030.

Eating Out

[35:10] That's good. So then let's add eating out which you like. I think I would still consider that a necessity because there's no way to live in Berlin and never go out.

Jae:
[35:10] That's good. So and eating out which you like.
I think I would still come consider that a necessity because there's no way to exactly friends how long go out to eat would say I thought.

Manuel:
[35:20] Obviously you can really make a difference in terms of how often you go out to eat. But I would say, I mean twice a week I would really say it's a necessity. Like does anybody go out less than twice a week.

Jae:
[35:29] That's it does any less than no.

Manuel:
[35:33] Am I just crazy because I feel like I go out one once or twice per day?

Jae:
[35:34] I go out a lot.
What's the advice? Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I'm like I I go out probably and I would say for eating out, I mean like don't, don't limit yourself.
Be realistic, you're new to a city, you're going to be meeting people and the best way to meet people, you know, is by going out, you're not going to be cooking for your friends all the time unless you're that type of person.
Um, I budget €150 a month for eating out because that is, well, one of my biggest priorities.
Well, I budget maybe 80 to €150. It does range a lot.

Manuel:
[36:10] Okay, but hey, let's say, okay, let's say three times a week And let's say you're spending €15 on average because you're getting a meal and a drink each time and there are 4.3 weeks per month on average.
So that's three times 4.3 times €15 that is €193.
So let's let's put €200 for eating up and obviously like, you know, there's some opportunity to save money here.
But I just think it's realistic because you make friends, even if you really want to save money and stuff, you make friends and if you have a job,
you will go out with your colleagues, like it's just you're gonna go and eat, you know.

Jae:
[36:52] Yeah. And why limit yourself, you know? Don't be the person who says no. The person says yes.

Manuel:
[36:54] Berlin I mean, yes, and there's so many good restaurants and overall this is really, I'm still surprised like Berlin is getting so expensive.

Jae:
[37:00] Yes, I'm still surprised. Berlin is getting so expensive. We're right in the sky.

Manuel:
[37:06] But then we're right in the center of Berlin right now and there are some restaurants here where you still have the lunch menu and it's like €8 for the lunch menu. Yeah.

Jae:
[37:10] Mm There are some where you start.
Yeah, which is actually pretty good. Yeah. Um The other thing that I just wrote down was a T. M. Fees because everybody loves to use cash here for some reason.

Banking

[37:26] Um and even though I thought like europe was a lot more like card friendly, like most of the places that I have been to,
um we require cash and thankfully my bank, I have like free withdrawals but not every bank does or every bank is like limited.
So you maybe only get three free withdrawals.
So if you're constantly going out to eat or whatnot, you're going to need cash.

Manuel:
[37:51] Yes. I would still suggest don't budget for 80 mps just pick a bank where it's free.

Jae:
[37:51] Yes, I would still suggest,
where it's free.

Manuel:
[37:56] Um But yeah, we talked about that in the banking episode.

Jae:
[38:00] And.

Manuel:
[38:00] I mean yeah just try to avoid those fees but we can add I don't know how much do you spend on a.

Jae:
[38:05] There's I mean, I don't spend any.

Manuel:
[38:06] T. M. Fees? You don't you don't because you get the platinum card as we all know getting money out each week.

Jae:
[38:09] Yeah, but I would just say, I mean like I don't know how much of feeble like maybe like three years.
So I mean if you're getting money out each week, I would say maybe just 12 to €20 let's just put 20. You have these.

Manuel:
[38:19] I would say maybe just 12 to €20.
Well if you if you have these this limit on free withdrawals, just make sure you get enough to you know not have to pay these fees.

Jae:
[38:26] Just make sure you can.
Yeah. Last Yeah. Okay, so where are we at?

Manuel:
[38:32] Okay. So where are we? Because this is I think the end of our necessities list we still have some non essentials that you should budget for. But So on average we're at around 12 europe.

Jae:
[38:36] Yes,
for about So on average we're at around €1200.

Manuel:
[38:45] Um And then if you're thinking about health insurance then no one For that. So maybe 14. Yeah. Yeah.

Jae:
[38:45] Um and then if your can thinking about health insurance then you're gonna wanna be mindful of that. So maybe €1400 goes to like all of the centros.

Manuel:
[38:57] Yeah. So that feels right to me. I think if you have €1200 available per month, you can comfortably live in Berlin And I think you can,
obviously get away or get by with less.
And for example, I mean we can just look at the hearts fears.
That's so basically the amount of money you get from the state if you are unemployed and it is currently EUR 450.
Um That doesn't include rent because rent will be paid and doesn't include insurance and those things. But basically everything like groceries and things like that, you will have to pay from that.
And that is obviously the absolute absolute bare minimum and some people say it's really below the minimum and it should be higher.
Um but Yes, I would say €1,200 you can comfortably get by with, Well if we set 600 for the room.
So that basically leaves you with more or less this minimum. So I, I think 1000 200 is realistic, but much less than that.
You'll be in trouble if you have more than that, then great.
You can kind of have better quality of life.

[40:16] Non essentials things you might want to spend money on every month,
on top of this One thing that I saw that I didn't even think about on on this website, All about Berlin that we mentioned before is costs if you have a dog,

Having A Dog

[40:34] because you have to pay insurance and the dark tax and obviously you get need to get food and stuff like that.
So it's at least €50 a month to have a dock that you should budget for.

Going Out & Drinks

[40:49] And then you wrote down going out something that I'm now too old for and don't know anything about how much is it to go out.

Jae:
[40:57] I mean Club entry ranges from 10 to €20.

Manuel:
[40:58] Club entry ranges, europe, that's still that's still pretty cheap. Right? I bet you it's more expensive.

Jae:
[41:02] Um And that's yeah,
I mean it is but it can add up, you know, I think that's the issue because like let's say you're going out to a club,
friday and saturday, You know that's already maybe 10-20 and then you're doing that each weekend, that can get you up to like €120 or whatnot.
Um music events depends on where you're going to, but that maybe 10-20 euros depending on what type of music event you're going to.

Manuel:
[41:33] Yeah, I mean if you're if you're talking about concerts Are it's much more I mean, small bands would be €30, big bands 100 or more euros and other activities.

Jae:
[41:35] Monster concert. Yeah, that's like yeah, euros.
Yeah. And then just other activities, I don't know, maybe rock climbing or like swimming or whatnot.

Manuel:
[41:47] Climbing or.

Jae:
[41:50] Um That will probably be much cheaper. Like maybe going to a museum or whatnot.

Manuel:
[41:51] That will probably be much cheaper like. But I think on average I went at least by Maybe 100 € going out. All right.

Jae:
[41:55] I think on average I would At least budget maybe €100 for just going out a month. Yeah.

Manuel:
[42:05] Yeah, I agree. I mean the last Yeah, but I would set aside like €100 for like fun money just to spend on the city.

Jae:
[42:07] And really that just depends on your lifestyle.

Manuel:
[42:16] You can there's a lot of opportunity to save money just by for example, figuring out what days are free for museums, which there are days.
And sometimes clubs have if you if you get there early it might be cheaper. Things like that.
And there's also so many free events and free places that you can have a good time at in Berlin I mean you mentioned parks before we started recording, but there's also like parties and stuff that are just free.
So um Yeah, but it's it's nice to have some money set aside for just fun. How much.

Jae:
[42:52] How much did you budget for drinks?

Manuel:
[42:55] I don't drink. It's just part of my fun fund money. I mean I have cocktails every now and then and I would say a good at a good cocktail cocktail bar.

Jae:
[42:57] Just,
Yeah, I mean Uh huh.

[43:07] Cocktail bar? Yes. 8 - 10. Yeah. Work. Right.

Manuel:
[43:08] It's It's about €10. Yeah, for for like a good drink, But you can also get a beer radish beatty for €2.

Jae:
[43:17] Yeah. That was maybe budget once again, 100 € for drinks because the way I like to go out.

Manuel:
[43:18] I was maybe what's in your life, euros.

[43:24] All right.

Gym

Jae:
[43:27] And then um for the gym more like sports. Um On average, what I've been seeing is like depending on where you want to go, like going like a McF, it you can maybe pay 15 to €20.
Everyone in someplace like john reed, you can be playing up to €40.
So I would say maybe just budget around €35 for a germ if that is important to you.
Um and then close and shopping. That's one of my favorite things to do.

Clothes & Shopping

Manuel:
[43:58] That so depends on the kind of person you are right, like how how much do you need?
And there's also, I mean really good ways to buy second hand clothes, like the flea markets and there's this app now vintage that you can really cheaply buy second hand clothes,
but I don't know how much to how much money do you spend.
I hate going shopping. Like this is really to my advantage, like I only do it when I'm forced to I really need something new.

Jae:
[44:29] Yeah, like it really does depend, like I have periods where I go shopping where I just collect a lot of clothes and then like I don't go shopping again for like a very long time because I'm like I have my like style or whatnot.
But like I would say maybe very small, maybe like €50. It just really does depend on your shopping style and whatnot.
I'm not one that likes to go shopping that much, but like if you see something that you like, you know, treat yourself.
So I say 15, okay, treat yourself.

Manuel:
[44:55] Treat yourself the sub line of this podcast.
Okay, so let's put 50 and I mean I agree. I feel like the, the money that like clothes cost are more or less the same in many countries.
Like even in lower income countries, if you go to like a mall and you go to an H and M.
It's like, oh, the price is pretty much the same and the same with like higher income countries and since Germany is a higher income country, it's not, it's not going to be that big of your budget unless you're like,
you know, a fashionista and you want new stuff all the time.

Jae:
[45:36] Yeah. Plus there's places like Primark where you can get pretty fairly.

Manuel:
[45:41] Don't, don't buy it Primark or Primark or whatever it's called.
They're evil, they're, they're really trying to whitewash their image now, but they're pretty bad.

Jae:
[45:45] There, they're really trying to whitewash.

Manuel:
[45:51] I think this episode not sponsored by trimark.

Jae:
[45:52] I'm kinda guilty that my entire outfit is from there.
That's a fair point.

Manuel:
[46:01] Yeah, I mean there's cheap places, but yeah, I would obviously recommend secondhand over this like super cheap clothes stores.

Jae:
[46:05] Right? Mhm.

[46:10] And last but not least we have traveling, which it's not. Yeah.

Traveling

Manuel:
[46:12] Police, we have traveled.
It's not really part of living in Berlin right? But I guess if you move to Berlin especially from a bra, you want a budget for traveling around Germany.

Jae:
[46:18] Yes. You moved to Berlin as rob you want to for,
Yes, because that was one thing I did forget to budget forward and now, like, I don't feel like I'm stuck in Berlin but like definitely it's gonna take me a minute before I like save up some money to like just like goes like a different city or whatnot.
Especially now there's like a nine year old ticket.

Manuel:
[46:42] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is that unfortunately we have a,
good network of trains and a good system I mean it could be better in Switzerland laughs at us for having such a bad system.
But then compared to some other countries it's pretty good but it's expensive like if you want to go to Munich from Berlin on short notice.
So let's say we decided, hey let's go to Munich this weekend. So tomorrow um and we want to obviously take a fast train, right? We want to take the I. C. E.
So one way just to go there would be almost €200 170 euros and it can be much much cheaper if.

Jae:
[47:31] Just to Go, that's one way.

Manuel:
[47:33] Just to go just one way on the train Munich Berlin Berlin Munich, it's 4.5 hours and it's 100 and €72 and there's tons of ways to make that cost go down the first and foremost is to be early.
Like you can book these tickets up to three months in advance and you can get tickets for 20 or €30 and then you can get a bond card which is this yearly subscription,
where you then get 25 or 50% of a discount or 100 but that's really expensive.
Um And then there are some alternatives.
So Flix bus which is this long distance bus company that is incredibly cheap.
They now have trains to flicks train and basically their trains are the old trains that the bond doesn't use anymore and they paint them green and they just run them and they're super super cheap usually,
even if you are booking kind of short term.
Um so there are ways to get around cheaper, especially if you're willing to sit on busses or to take these less than fancy trains,
but in many other cases or ride shares are a good um a good way as well to get around. So there are cheaper methods.
But yeah, the regular trains can get really expensive and I mean it really depends on what you want to do, but it's not so cheap to get around Germany, so maybe, I mean.

Jae:
[48:58] So maybe budget, I mean really depends on what you're doing.

Manuel:
[49:03] Well let's, let's say you want to take one trip every month to like one other city to like discover, you know the rest of Germany.

Jae:
[49:03] Let's let's say you want to take one trip. Yeah.
Mhm. I would say.

Manuel:
[49:10] I would say budget €300 For like one weekend trip per sure month.

Jae:
[49:15] For like one weekend trip. Ah. Mhm. 100.

Manuel:
[49:22] So where does that all leave us for these non essentials in total? We have right, well one.

Jae:
[49:25] Not okay. In total, we have like, well, €802,900 for non essentials.

Grand Total

Manuel:
[49:33] For non essentials.

Jae:
[49:34] We have Around 635 so Average 600 to like 700 for non essentials. And once again, that's very, very, very optional.

Manuel:
[49:37] Around 600 wow, average 600 central.

[49:46] And very dependent on your lifestyle. But I thought it was a good exercise to go through all of these categories and try to find a number because often I hear from people,
who are thinking about going to Berlin or to Germany in general and it's really hard for them to place these numbers or to get an idea of how much it could cost.
So I felt like this was probably a little bit boring overall, but hopefully helpful.

Jae:
[50:16] Really I thought it I'm in there, so I thought this was so much fun. Also not sponsored again, if you guys need a great budgeting app, we recommend you need a budget dot com, why not for short?
Um They are a great budgeting system um in which I've been using it for like almost a year now, and it has really helped me not really be worried about my money and like how I'm spending it as well.

Manuel:
[50:43] Yeah, I also got really into wine app recently, I mean it's super, super nerdy and most people probably roll their eyes at us but I agree.
Like basically what we just did, like actually going through the categories and budgeting for it, doing that actually in like a piece of software.
First of all, it's kind of fun and it just gives you that peace of mind like yes,
you know, I've, I've covered these expenses so now I can actually spent the rest on going out or buying clothes or whatever because you kind of have an overview and if you're just,
guessing and hoping that it will work out it, you know, can end up unfortunately.
And also like there's, we talked a little bit about how like german Germany doesn't have like this whole credit card culture where people get credit cards early on and then spend,
you know money on credit cards that they don't have but there's these startups now and these companies like Lana, I don't know if you've seen that often online, you can pay with Clannad and they have this option to pay it later, pay it in six months, whatever paid in in installments,
don't do it like this will just get you into trouble and we talked to.

Jae:
[51:52] Unless you are great at budgeting and you're great.

Manuel:
[51:55] Unless you're great but even then like do you really want to like give,
like basically because it's basically alone, it's basically, you know you're taking a loan from a from a private company and then if you,
even if you have the money, if you forget to pay it or something goes wrong then that will mess with your shoe file, which we already discussed is very important when getting an apartment and many other things.
And I would just say in general, like figure out your finances budget conservatively, make sure you don't spend more than you have, because that could really get you into trouble in the long run.

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