Show Notes
Transcript
Manuel:
[0:09] And we're back!
Jae:
[0:11] Hello, hello, hello! It's been a minute hasn't it?
Manuel:
[0:14] It's been a while. I guess we're both responsible.
Jae:
[0:20] I mean life happens, bro.
Manuel:
[0:23] Life happens. I got Corona and was out for about two weeks. And before ...
Jae:
[0:31] I was in the hospital ...
Manuel:
[0:33] Before then, you were in the hospital and you weren't doing so well. And coincidentally, that is what we shall talk about today, because you very generously offered to speak about these things.
Jae:
[0:46] Yes, I'm going to expose myself. So yeah, I was in the hospital like for like a day or two, more specifically a mental health hospital.
Jae's Breakdown
[0:57] I had a mental health breakdown. And yeah, I just needed some time to recover. My experience in Berlin hasn't been the easiest, that's probably the nicest way I can say this, and it's presented a lot of challenges. And I'm a person who is diagnosed with a few disorders. At first I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety back in 2017, then I was diagnosed with ADHD in 2020, and then recently bipolar in 2021, so you can only imagine that it is a big adjustment for me. And it is something that I've always struggled with managing. And of course, you know, there's good days and bad days It's something that I typically have to keep in mind whenever I move to a new place. But to be fair, I kind of was just slacking on my mental health care. So moving here, all of the challenges that are presented, I think was just, you know, very overwhelming for me. And I had a specific occurrence ...
Manuel:
[2:04] Wait before you talk about the specific occurrence, first of all, I think it's really good that you're willing to talk about all of this stuff publicly, because I think you're obviously not the only one experiencing these things. And it's also really interesting because you didn't mention much of any of this, at least to me, and you were ... I guess my question is like: Did you prepare in any way when you came here? Because, yeah, I can only imagine, I mean coming to Berlin from another country is hard either way. And then I can just imagine how a lot of the smaller and bigger things that went wrong kind of compounded for you and led to this incident, I think you called it, or this breakdown that you had. Did you prepare in any way? Or if not, would you do anything differently next time if you moved to a different country?
Jae:
[3:09] Yeah, so to answer your first point, yeah, I didn't talk about this at all. I really don't like to talk about like mental health, because I mean like you know, there's always this stigma, and especially in the workforce, like I was always a person who can be considered high functioning and I really never liked my mental health to be a weakness. And the more I'm realizing it is not a weakness, it's just something about me that I have to deal with ... So, in the sense of preparation, I mean like it's really hard. Like mental health is not this like cookie cutter, like black-and-white type of thing, so when you talk about preparation and stuff, I mean I would say that I prepared in the way that I would prepare, but maybe looking back or like looking at it from a different perspective, that might not be preparation at all. I didn't ... you know, I wasn't really taking my medication as I probably should, but I was doing more like mindful things, like I was doing like meditation, sometimes doing most things I kind of do, spiritually.
[4:17] Because for me, the medication wasn't ... I didn't want it to be a crutch, and it didn't really help all that much. So I didn't really know what else I needed to prepare. Because a lot of times it's hard, because especially when you have like episodes, you don't predict the episodes, so you don't really know how to prepare and what to prepare for. And keep in mind that like, I'm already preparing for a thousand other things, coming here. So mental health which is another ... that's a Pandora's box of its own, that's another thousand things, that's two thousand things, I'm trying to prepare for in coming here, and it's just hard to really balance that all in, you know. Like people don't really ... are like ... at least my mindset was like people aren't going to always understand, so it's better if I can just, you know, deal with it myself, and I'll get through it always. So it was very hard, I would say to specifically prepare. However, in the future I do think I need to prioritize a little bit more, and whether that means actually finding help, or actually just taking things easier, something definitely probably needs to be done, I think, just in the long run of things. I mean, even if I ... which I am, me staying here, or for some reason I move to another place, I think, prioritizing my mental health definitely has to be, I think, a bigger agenda on my plate.
Manuel:
[5:39] Mm hmm. Okay, so tell us about what happened, specifically.
Jae:
[5:44] So this was like maybe a month ago now, but like basically a Friday. It was a Friday like the start of the weekend. I was out at a bar. And it was like a bar that was like on the lake. And I accidentally ... I was about to leave the bar - because I'm responsible and I had to go home early! - I dropped my phone, and of course there's a lot of people, it's dark, as my friend, like he's trying to help me find my phone. And we can't find it. So I assume that it fell in the cracks into the ocean, or not the ocean, the river. So I'm like: Oh crap, I guess I'm just gonna go home. And you know, I have a backup phone, so no biggie. Well yeah, it was a big deal, it's my iPhone, but like it will be okay, right?
[6:30] So when I get home, I'm on my iPad, like I Find My Phone, and I see that my phone is moving, so, lo and behold! It was like stolen. So that was already very stressful for me, that my phone, which is a new phone, got stolen. It had my ID, you know, my debit card - my metal card! - and my gym membership, right? So I was just stressed out from that. So that was just already on my mind. And then the next day I go to like another event, and that night I'm leaving the event and I order a rideshare. However I did not ... When I lost my phone in my wallet, I canceled my card. When I ordered this rideshare I did not realize that I'd canceled my card. And when I canceled my card, it defaulted my payment to cash. So it told the driver that I was going to be paying at the end of the ride in cash, which, I've never known an online rideshare app to do that. I'm used to like Uber and stuff, where you only pay with card.
Manuel:
[7:34] Welcome to Germany! Where cash is still the way to go!
Jae:
[7:36] Yes, welcome! It is. So when I get to my location, he's like, "Where's the cash?" And I'm like, "I don't have cash." And I'm like ... I'm like ... and then it all clicks to me, and I'm like, "Oh crap!" and I'm like, "I'm sorry." And like he was like yelling at me, like ... like ... like basically not letting me leave. He was like, "You have to go to an ATM right now," or whatnot. I'm like, "There's no one close, and I'm not going to go with you. You're yelling at me." I'm like, "If anything, I can go into my apartment, add my phone, add my wallet ... add my new card or a different card to my account, solve it that way. Even report me, like, to the app, I don't mind." Like, "I'm not trying to not pay, but I'm not also going to sit here and let you yell at me and be aggressive." So he literally gets out of his seat and blocks my exit from getting out. So I don't know how, but I ended up like pushing past him, and I'm like on the sidewalk, and he grabs my arm and then like I'm trying to pull away, so I finally pulled and he grabbed my backpack. It's a new backpack too, so that was messed up.
[8:35] So then like ... like I finally get inside, and like he was like yelling at me, like even to the point where like people outside were like watching and stuff. And then like I get in and ... I don't know like I just, like I just broke down after that, because I'm just like ... It's not the first incident, you know, I had the racist incident that happened like a few weeks before, then my phone got stolen or whatnot, and I was just like: I'm doing everything right. I'm trying to do everything right. Why is all of this stuff happening to me now? Like why was he so mean to me? You know, like ... like I've never had someone be aggressive with me ever in my life. And that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. That just kind of allowed just me just ... like ... like just to breakdown, essentially. Thankfully my roommate was here, so he called the ambulance. And the ambulance came and got me, and they just put me into the hospital for a day or two. And then my parents flew in from the US to be with me for a week, just to make sure, you know, I was good and stuff. But yeah, I mean that was my first time ever being hospitalized. I've had episodes before, but never to that extreme. So yeah, it was a fucking lie, and I'll be honest, I mean, Manuel and I were supposed to record this episode last week, and I was like: If we record this now, I have nothing positive to say. Not one positive thing to say, because like ...
Manuel:
[9:56] I was like: No, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Gain some perspective, please.
Jae:
[9:57] Yeah.
Manuel:
[10:01] No, no. I mean not like ... you know, I told you back then, there's something to be said about toxic positivity. I don't want this to be filtered in any way, or for you to paint a prettier picture than it actually presented itself.
Jae:
[10:11] Yeah.
Manuel:
[10:16] But also I mean I know you, and I know that with perspective you see like a little bit of positive in everything, and I kind of wanted to hear that perspective as well.
Jae:
[10:27] Exactly. Oh, and then after that, yeah, I got sick. So I was quarantining for another three weeks. So yeah, it was just ... June was crap! June was horrible! Like I might not even want to share it, because June was the worst month I've had in my year so far.
Manuel:
[10:31] Yeah. Just not a ... not a great one.
Jae:
[10:43] But it was nice that I did take a step back and I was able to get perspective on it and stuff. I was able to get a doctor, I'm able to get on medication for my bipolar - can't get treated for my other illnesses just yet, we have to take things step by step - and I'm kind of been slowing down and stuff. And I realized a lot of what I was doing wrong, you know. Like, while that guy was the straw that broke the camel's back, it was still a very internal conflict that I was going through, and something that I've been evaluating for myself of things that I would redo if I did this all again. One, always have to keep in mind your mental health, always keeping your mental health whether you have a diagnosis or not, but especially if you have a diagnosis, keep that in mind, you know. Like I try to live life like everyone else, but I mean it's a disability. So I have to keep that in mind sometimes, that I can't do everything that everyone else can do, no matter how much I believe it. I need to take some breaks. So with that intention, I realized, you know, that maybe these past few months, I think I've been going way too hard on everything.
Manuel:
[12:00] Yeah, and honestly, I mean, I even without knowing any of your backstory, it just felt like you were racing. Like you were doing all of these things, starting all of these projects. Every time I met you, you were like: Oh, and I'm going to this event, and I'm doing this, and I also started this, and also here's my new business idea, and like just a million things at once. And I was just like: Wow! This is a lot that you are kind of taking on.
Jae:
[12:26] Yes, and not going to blame everything on mental health, but I will attribute that a lot to being ADHD and also bipolar. Those illnesses really get you going, which is really cool because I'm very creative, but also I don't know my limits, and that's something that I definitely learned. And unfortunately a lot of times I've experienced that, I only know my limits whenever I crash, which is not the most healthiest thing. And it's really challenging, you know, because it takes a lot of time to understand that. And with every place that you move to, you have to relearn that. You have to reestablish your boundaries, reestablish your routine, re-figure everything out. And yeah, I went way, way, way, too hard. And also I didn't tell anybody about my background or my conditions or whatnot. So no one knew anything, no one knew. Yeah, this was probably not the best idea for me, you know. And that was something that I think that also was just came into play too, of like communicating these types of things, you know. So I realize now that it's okay for me to take things slow. Like my one message for this entire episode would be: To Take Things Slow.
[13:49] You know, I guess I got so nervous like making sure that everything was right when I got here, you know, making sure I had a place to stay, making sure it was a perfect place to stay, making sure I have my Anmeldung done, making sure I had my registration, making sure I have my job, making sure I have my insurance, making sure I have all these things set in stone, that subconsciously it was very anxious, and on top of that, making sure I have a personal life here as well, doing that. And I haven't even been here for three months yet, you know!
Manuel:
[14:17] Yeah, yeah. You've been doing a lot. And you do have that kind of urge for everything to be perfect and perfectly prepared, which I very much sympathize with, but I think if you're overdoing it, it's just a little dangerous.
Jae:
[14:36] It is very dangerous. And it's one of those things where like I said - I'll go back to it - a lot of times you don't know until you reach your limit.
Practical Advice
[14:46] And like, I would say, when it comes to like practical advice, I think it's important to learn to prioritize, and learn to kind of be honest with yourself. And I will also be aware that's not the most easiest thing to do, especially if you don't really know what to prioritize or, to be honest, what to do. But something that I wish I had told myself is that it's okay if not everything works out ideally, you know. Like I'll just use a small example of just the place I'm living right now. It is above average on prices to live, but it has been stressing me out that I am living in a place that is above average. I'm like: Oh my gosh, I messed up, I made the wrong decision.[15:36] My conscience is telling me: It's okay if you have to stay here and pay a little bit more, that's okay, but you did your best. You know, I think that's something that's very important to like .. Going back to what you said about like this perfectionism, I suffer from that a lot, I suffer from perfectionism, always trying to be perfect. And this was no difference of a case. And a lot of times you just need 'good enough', you know. "Good enough" is okay, even "just okay" is okay. But I think that's something that you should kind of prepare yourself for before you come here, just so you kind of are able to face reality a little bit more realistically, you know?
Manuel:
[16:21] Totally. Yeah, those are good tips.
Going to the Emergency Room
[16:25] Let's talk about some resources and some concrete things that are available in Berlin and in Germany. And before we do, I have ... can I ask you, how did that experience go of like calling the ambulance? Because I mean, everybody knows you can call the ambulance if, I don't know, you break a leg, or something happens physically, but if you're having a mental health breakdown or a crisis and you're calling the ambulance, how does that ... how did that go? What was the process? How did it feel, I guess? Yeah, what's what's the experience when you're calling an ambulance because you're in a crisis?Jae:
[17:12] To be fair, I was out of it. Out of it. I was unconscious, like I was not aware. So my roommate ended up doing it, and he said he just called them and told them the incident. But I think it was also the capacity of ... or just the circumstances - I'll let you decide if you want to keep this in or not - but like I was literally hitting myself, so I was like self-abusing myself. And I mean I was ... like my roommate couldn't stop me, you know? So it's like I'm a harm to myself at that point. So in that capacity, I think he just read the signs like: Okay. And my mom was like: Can you please call someone to get him?
[18:00] And I think he just called it, and then they just came and picked me up. And that was ... it was, I would say, rather simple. I mean, like of course the experience there was still traumatizing, but like I had gotten sent to one hospital, realized that the hospital wasn't a part of like the address of where I was registered at, so they took me to another hospital. And then that took a second, and then they finally got me a room and stuff, which honestly like the process was ... Some people say they have bad experiences with hospitals and stuff, but I mean like for me personally, I had like a fine experience, like I said once I was kind of out of it. But like I don't have anything to complain about. Like I was, one, very grateful, did not receive a bill - thanks to you, Universal Health Care - and like, everyone was like, at least very helpful, you know, like, I didn't feel like I was kind of like alone in the process. So like, I would, if I ever had an incident like this again, I would feel okay, you know, calling the ambulance again. I think that answers your question.
Manuel:
[19:12] Yeah, yeah, that's good to know. So some other resources that I know about.
Resources
[19:19] Maybe, you know, if you're not at the point where you are calling an ambulance or going to a hospital ... and I was talking about this, or touching on this on the Easy German podcast recently and got some pushback in terms of how many resources there are in Germany and in Berlin. And it is absolutely true that there is a huge scarcity of therapists, and it's a big problem, and many people are waiting way too long for a therapy spot, but there are a lot of resources, at least short-term resources, one of which is these crisis hotlines and there's several. And I will link to a page called berliner-notruf.de where there's several crisis lines, also kind of focusing on different groups of people and different topics. And then some of these crisis lines are run by the Berliner Krisendienst, and this is a group that tries to help people who are in a crisis, and they not only run these phone numbers but they also have spaces in Berlin where you can actually go if you're in a crisis.[20:43] And at least the one in Mitte is actually open I think until midnight or 10 p.m., rather late, and you can, if you're in a crisis, go there and talk to someone, and then they can also refer you for example to a hospital. Or at least in the case of Mitte, they can actually walk you over, because it's actually attached to a hospital, and they can say: Hey, you know, if you want, we'll walk you over to the hospital right now. So it's a really good resource, and I think it's really great that we have that. There's a ton of really negative reviews on Google, so maybe it's a little bit hit-and-miss who you meet there, and I think maybe there's some people who, I don't know, aren't as empathic as they could be, but I was there once with someone and had a really positive experience and thought it was really helpful.
Jae:
[21:45] Those are really great resources. Yeah, I mean yeah, like it is scarce, but I mean like it's good that they're at least are resources. You know I think this is the positivity side of things. Not everything is perfect but you know, it's nice to have that. And sometimes some of your resources just being your friends, and being the support systems that you have, are great. You know, like I mean, Manuel, your support, Cari's support, friends' support, like my co-workers support, has been really helpful, you know, being able to talk to my family has also just been really helpful and stuff. So I know some people don't like to always open up to the people that are close to them, but if you generally have a good relationship with those close to you, you know, people love you, people do care about you, so .remember that, like you're not doing them a disservice by opening up and sharing what's going on with you, for them to ...
Manuel:
[22:43] No, quite the opposite. I think for many people it's really hard to be supportive if they feel like you don't want to talk about it, or, you know, you'd rather not talk about it, but by you being open, it makes it so much easier to just say: Hey, you know, I'm here if you want to talk or if there's something I can help you with. Yeah, the other thing I was going to mention is regarding therapy. So yes, there is a big problem with scarcity, but there's a good website called psych-info.de where you can search for therapists and try to find therapists, and you can filter by language that they speak, which is really helpful I think. And you can also check if they work for the regular public health insurances or only private health insurances. And yeah, it is kind of depressing, because you start calling these people, and one by one, they will say that they don't have any spots.
[23:58] And it's a little bit weird, the system, because there's actually a law in in Germany or some some kind of law or rule that they actually have to offer you an initial session, or like an initial three sessions. So it's actually pretty easy to get like an initial session, also for someone to just kind of give you a diagnosis, or if not a diagnosis, like a recommendation that you should take therapy, which also then enables your health insurance to pay for it, so that is actually pretty easy. If you start calling people, they will often offer you these initial sessions but they will tell you right from the beginning, "I don't have any spots afterwards. Even if it works out, I won't be able to keep being your therapist because I'm fully booked." So that's the frustrating part. But I would say if you're looking for therapy, there's no good website. Like with regular doctors, you can go to Jameda or Doctolib and search for doctors, and just book an appointment online. I don't think that's really possible with therapists, so you unfortunately have to call them one by one, but I would just start doing that, and yeah, basically try to find one that, hopefully, will have some spots for you.
Jae:
[25:26] But also I will add to this, if you can't do that, that's okay, because one of the things ... I've avoided doing that, because my God, is it exhausting to call people and keep getting told: No. So if you are with somebody who is struggling, just understand that it is not easy for them to find help, professional help. It is very ... such ... such ... such a challenge. Like the person that I'm going to is only for psychiatry and my next appointment is not till the end of August. So it's ... it is a struggle. But one thing that did come to my mind and this is not for everybody, this won't apply to everybody, but like for me, I am still an American and I technically I'm still under my parents insurance in America. So if you're in a situation like me, you can technically, you know, still utilize any online services in your native country if that is an option for you. So always just consider that, for food for thought.
Manuel:
[26:28] That's a good tip. And can I just say I one hundred percent agree that the system is terrible, because going through that list and calling everybody, and then being either ... like most of these people you can't even reach because they just have an answering machine, and they say, "You can reach me by phone during this one specific hour, once per week, that's when I'll try to pick up the phone." And then like you take a note and you try during that hour, and then it's just busy the whole time. It's super, super frustrating and then ... There should be some better system where you just go to your health insurance and say, "Hey, look, I'm looking for a therapist, and this is where I live," and they just put you on some some kind of waiting list within a radius of five kilometers or whatever, and then just give you a ring once a spot becomes available. Like that doesn't sound like it should be too hard to accomplish. And it's so necessary.
Jae:
[27:25] TK, actually, I want to say, they actually do have that feature.
Manuel:
[27:29] They have. Yeah, TK has some kind of service that can also help. So that's another good tip. Like call your health insurance as well, and ask for their support or their resources or whatever they can do, in addition to just calling therapists yourself. But I mean, if there's no better option to you than this, and I think especially if you're looking for therapy not in German but in English or some other language, then, especially, you probably won't get around just calling people from this list. But I would say in terms of asking your friends for help, like as someone who's not suffering any mental health issues but who knows many people who do and wants to be supportive and wants to be a good friend and wants, you know, to help in any way, it's often really frustrating how little you can do. And this is something that I can do for example. So you know, I guess my tip would just be, if you have friends and they're telling you, "Hey, if there's anything I can do," you know, tell them, "Hey, I really need a spot in therapy but it's really, really difficult. Can you help me go through this list and call these people and make a note of when they're available and leave a voice message?" Like this is something that I think your friends can help with, and they'll likely be happy if they can help in some small way.
Jae:
[29:04] Yes. Ask for help! I'm learning that now. That is my weakness, is ask for help! Do what I don't do enough! But thank you for that, Manuel, I think that's great, great advice. Something else I would also add, is like find expat groups and also people who are like-minded. Now, where do you find them? Facebook groups? Meetups? I mean, you have to just trial-and-error, but I do think that when you are able to find people who relate to you a little bit, it kind of makes it a little bit easier. Like the hospital that I was in deals with other people who are kind of struggling with the same things that I was dealing with, and just being with them for like a quick second was really nice and really grounding, because it also reminded me of like, you know: I'm not alone, you know. A lot of times, yeah, while you have the help of everyone else, you're still sometimes ...
[29:59] In my situation, I'm always the only person who is like dealing with certain things, so it's really beneficial, you know, to be around people who, you know, understand what you're going through, whether that is understanding that you're just new here and you're moving here and it's very daunting, or if you do have the same like mental health disabilities or whatnot. But there is some accountability that has to go on to you, and I'm realizing that as well, you know. Like if I want to have better peace of mind, I have to prioritize those things. I have to prioritize my health. I have to, you know, make conscious decisions: Is it better for me to do this versus go out and drink or whatnot, when I could be using this time to do something more healthier, you know? It takes a little bit of responsibility, which I know is not always easy, but once again, don't put too much pressure on yourself, and have compassion. Yeah, I think I've talked about compassion before in a previous episode, but it's very big, to have compassion for yourself.
Cultural Differences
Manuel:[31:10] Last question I'm interested in is: How much do you feel like mental health and depression is taboo in Germany versus the United States? Because from what I've heard many times and experienced a little bit, there are some countries where these topics are super taboo still, for example, Japan, it's like unheard of to share the things that you just shared about your life in any public way or even with your family, and there's a huge stigma still associated with all of this. And then the US is kind of at the other end of the spectrum, I mean at least maybe the coasts of the US, where it's like super open and everybody talks about having a therapist, and it's just like normal. And then Germany is somewhere in the middle, probably closer to the US, where it's pretty open but still not really something that you talk much about at work or with your not-so-close friends or sometimes even with your parents. Do you have any insight, so far?
Jae:
[32:24] I've realized the latter of what you just said, of like once I started talking to people, I started realizing that on the surface, nobody ... but to be fair, on the surface, not in America as well. I mean you might see like a few posts here and there, and you might have people ... Like, also I was ... In college, so in school obviously, people are more likely to talk about those types of things, but like normally I was still always one of the only people in my environment who was dealing with it. And for my family, they didn't realize it was something until it got to a point where it was something, you know? But here in Germany, like, because like now I've been open, I think other people have been like, "Oh, yes!" Or, "Oh, I know someone else ... " Because I'm like: Oh wait! Wow! So many people actually do have it. But it's something that I've had to either initiate or purposely look out for. But it is there. It's just like I have to ... there's some conscious effort that goes into it.
Manuel:
[33:23] Yeah, for sure. Berlin is probably one of the more open cities when it comes to all of this.
Jae:
[33:28] Yeah.Yes. And that's another reason why I'm kind of glad to be here, in that sense of like I feel validated here. Like ... like I don't feel too like ... like out of it, you know? Because that's like the most scariest part, is like if you're in an environment where people really don't believe in it, or they don't really care, they're not going to actually follow up or whatnot. But it seems like people here ... like ... like you can find people here, you know, at least.