Being Gay in Berlin

Jae:
[3:06] All right, so today's topic is kind of about being queer in Berlin and yes, we are just too cisgender males right now, gay males. We actually did want to get a girl on the show, or someone who goes by the different pronouns, but we'll do that for Part Two. Right now, it's just us.

Events & Activities

[12:37] Okay, so now my next question or topic is more about the events or things that you can do here as a gay man. Some of them will be G-rated. Some of them will be R-rated ...

Jack:
[12:51] I mean there's definitely the whole spectrum of things that you can do, for sure there are. And as I said, there's so many different scenes even within the queer scene and even within the gay scene, and so you'll definitely just have to kind of find where you feel comfortable. And it might change, it will grow over time, but there are these spaces that are doing their best to be designed for, not as many people as possible, but for like this specific group that maybe doesn't feel represented in other spaces, for sure. So there's lots of gay/queer transit vans that you can go to around Berlin. Yeah, I'm not sure. I think for me because I found lots of this scene through partying, a lot of it is connected to that, but that really doesn't have to be the case.

Jae:
[13:40] Yeah, it doesn't. I'm the same way. Most of my narrative is through the partying scene, but I know there's other things out there.

Jack:
[13:45] Apparently.

Jae:
[13:50] Okay, so I can't pronounce this, but can you?

Jack:
[13:53] Ah, Siegessaeule, yes, Siegessaeule, it's not ... We Are Queer Berlin So yeah, it is crazy, like I didn't even know about this, like.

Jae:
[14:02] Yeah. Yes. Ok, so siegessaeule.de - I'll make Manuel put it into the show notes - is a website that you can go on to, where you can find queer events going on in the city, and you can go, like it ranges from just like mixed events, like basically they have gay speed dating, they have STD / HIV testing to cultural events, I guess, where you can go see musicals and dance shows, all the way to festivals that are going on into the city, bars that are happening, clubs that have events, even sex things that are happening today. Honestly, also if you just type in "gay events Berlin" on Google, you'll always find something.

Jack:
[14:53] Also in Telegram groups. A lot of things that were once Facebook events or Facebook communities have shifted to Telegram, which is kind of great. And they're very open and you can constantly ...

Jae:
[15:05] Yeah. Mhm. How do you get into these Telegram groups?

Jack:
[15:07] I think you literally just search.

Jae:
[15:09] You can search on Telegram?

Jack:
[15:11] You can search ... Telegram is amazing!

Jae:
[15:13] Okay, I only use it to talk to you and Manuel and my father.

Jack:
[15:17] I converted everyone. Like me and a friend, we doubled down on Telegram like five or six years ago. It's so amazing. It's the best app.

Jae:
[15:23] It's better than WhatsApp?

Jack:
[15:25] Like WhatsApp, it's so bad, it's so bad! And Telegram is not. I'm sure there are also reasons why people have problems with Telegram.

Jae:
[15:37] You're not one of those?

Jack:
[15:38] I'm not here for those. I'm here for the amazing feature set, and the ability ... you just like search literally anything.

Jae:
[15:45] Yeah. I mean, to be fair, I got ... Okay, so one of this ... that's coming up ... I don't know when this video will be published, but it's called, The Whole Festival, which is a queer festival. I literally ... it's sold out. It is sold out. You cannot buy tickets, but I am in a Telegram group in which they presented a link with extra tickets. So yeah, I would actually say Telegram is actually a pretty useful feature.

Jack:
[16:10] Very useful. The one like I'm looking at one now, Berlin Queer ... Oh .... Queer Berlin Nightlife Guide. I was looking at the wrong one. But yeah, and it's all there and they post like weekly updates about things that are happening in Berlin.

Jae:
[16:24] Mm hmm.

Berlin's Openness

[16:26] And also one thing I will say one of the benefits, I think of being gay in Berlin is a lot of times, gay men do come here by themselves to find just environmental community, so it is pretty easy, at least in my perspective, to make friends. Like at a club or a party or these events or whatnot you get talking ... of course, you know. like with anybody, it's hit or miss if you actually stay friends, but I have found that the community here has been more or less, more on the more side, friendly and pretty open.

Jack:
[17:03] Yeah, I agree. I mean that's also been my experience. Yeah, I don't know, I feel like it's so hard because it does feel like these wild generalizations, but ... and talking about like I've been to other cities and experienced a very small little taste of other gay communities in different cities. And I just feel like Berlin is definitely the one that I've clicked with the best.

Jae:
[17:32] Yeah, I agree. I was in Austin before this and it also has a really strong gay community as well. But sometimes the gay community, especially like in LA or whatnot, just seems so stuck up sometimes, and so full of themselves. So it's nice to come to a place where a lot of ... you really do feel like you can be yourself, and still find your community, and still find a group of friends and stuff here.

Jack:
[17:59] I feel like there's a lot of cities ... and this is also, this is how I felt also about Berlin before, I'm like ... when I was closeted, it's the fitting-in in Berlin isn't based on wealth, which is so different to a lot of cities.

Jae:
[18:14] Yeah. Yes, so much.

Jack:
[18:15] And I think that while there's a lot of like exclusive places in Berlin, those exclusive places aren't exclusive based on who has money and who doesn't have money.

Jae:
[18:25] Yeah. Berghain is a great example.

Jack:
[18:27] Exactly. Like everyone is kind of in the same area. Sure there's like, you know, if you know someone you might queue at a different queue, but you still queue, you still all party in the same place. It's very flat in terms of like money hierarchy, and everyone ... I felt like when I lived in London, like my experience there was that we were poor. We weren't poor-poor, obviously, like we all had jobs, but when you go out, people want to spend a lot of money and I'm like: Guys, we all don't have money! Like we don't have to pretend like we need to buy a bottle or some lame thing like that ... Yeah, and that kind of culture isn't really here, which I appreciated so much when I started going out, and then that allowed me to like really, yeah, "find myself".

Jae:
[19:13] Exactly. I one hundred percent agree. If anything, I think with the whole money thing allowed me to find my own way of valuing myself, you know? With not ... if not money ... I mean I think we all find ways to value ourselves and we all find ways to find worth. My definition of that is more of who feels the most themselves, you know? And that's one thing I've taken from this, like I've seen a lot of people who might not have a lot of money, but I see they are in themselves, you know, they know themselves fully. And this city allows you to do that, because no one gives a fuck about you, but in the best way ever, you know. You can do whatever you want. Like I was on the tram today and this girl, she can do it ... I was annoyed by it but she was just like dancing and making these weird sounds or what not. I don't know where she was going, but she was definitely a Berlin girl. She was going somewhere, and I was like: You know what? Kudos to you! I'm annoyed, but you can do whatever you want to do.

Jack:
[20:05] She was going somewhere! But you can be annoyed! You can be annoyed, and she can do what she wants, and you can exist ...

Jae:
[20:15] And yes and she was doing ... Yes! And I had so much respect for her because she did not give two fucks about me sitting right next to her, you know, and I think that's a really cool thing also about being in the city. So if you are a questioning person, or someone who's just not full of themselves just yet, Berlin will, I think, get you there. Yeah.

Jack:
[20:34] Yeah, it can definitely, like, I think what helped me a lot also when I moved to Berlin was having some sort of structure outside of partying all the time, you know, like having a job or something, because I think that especially as a queer person, and because a lot of queer culture is so tied up in partying, I mean - as we said, there is others, we just haven't spoken about and don't know about them - but you can really go down like a rabbit hole and it can really eat you up. And so if you do come to Berlin and you want to like live your best queer life as a Berlin party person, I would say definitely try to have some sort of structure outside of these spaces, because you won't last very long, like in just physically you won't last long, mentally you won't last long. You can see a lot of friends that you meet out might just be party friends, which is also okay, like party friends, it's a type of friend that exists, and it's great, but trying making sure that you are able to find people who ground you and are there, even they're there on the part that they're not in the party, is really important, and I think having some ... For me, that is what I think helped me the most and allowed me to live here for as long as I have lived here.

Jae:
[21:50] For sure, for sure.

Party Scene

Jack:
[21:57] I think, I mean all of the best parties, I think they're not secret. What I think shocked me the most during lockdown, like when the whole Covid thing happened, was that a lot of cities that didn't have, like before lockdown they didn't have, weren't known for, like these amazing parties, but they did have like quite a strong ... which forced them to have like quite a strong underground culture. Berlin underground culture is The Culture! Well, my experience has been that there isn't such a strong culture of like illegal parties, because the city was ... and like less and less but still that - you know there's like the Club commission, stuff like that, like they're trying to maintain certain spaces within the center - but like there were ... there's just so many official places that you could have amazing parties that they didn't really need to set up some, you know, ad hoc space somewhere. And that meant that when we had lockdown, it took so ... or there was not this underground, like this, you know, natural reflex to have these illegal spaces like there were in cities like Paris or in London which like already had these kind of mechanisms in place. And so that was really eye-opening, that like the underground scene here in Berlin is the scene that you see in Siegessaeule, like you know, or in these queer groups. Like if you come to Berlin it is very accessible. You will find the parties you want to find, you know. Like, I think there's not ... I wouldn't name any party specifically that is where you should definitely go because ...

Jae:
[23:47] Yeah.

Jack:
[23:48] ... it's so broad, and there's so many. And there will be one tailored for what you're looking for, basically, whether it's yeah, lesbian, queer, trans, gay, all of them at once.

Jae:
[23:59] Yes. And most of them, like even Berghain is not necessarily what you can call a "gay" club, but like they're all like, yeah, at least 50-50.

Jack:
[24:12] Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think while the clubs might not be gay, I feel like they're all very safe spaces, regardless. Like stuff does happen, and you definitely hear about scary situations, like it is night life, it is people are living their best life, and sometimes that can go too far. So you definitely do have to be more secure. But speaking to a lot of my female friends, or female-identifying friends, they feel the stark difference between going out in other cities and going out in Berlin much more than we would, or like I do, for example. Because, you know, I didn't feel unsafe in London, but ... and so it's not like a question of feeling safe really, for me, but for them they're like: No, here it is so different in these spaces, you feel much safer. And when there are these scares or kind of, I don't know, things have been blowing up online about spiking and stuff like that recently, that really impacts their ability to experience these spaces because they're like: No, this was where we felt safe. They really were like a safe space, and so, yeah, while they're not specifically gay, they are safer.

Jae:
[25:29] Safer. Yeah. Yeah, that is a good point.

Jack:
[25:29] Yeah, for sure.

Sex Culture

Jae:
[25:32] So my next topic, is I guess obviously for all the gays, is the sex culture here as well. How is that culture here in Berlin?

Jack:
[25:42] I mean, you can have it, as much as you want, basically. Basically, as much as you want.

Jae:
[25:49] Yeah, it's like an all-you-can-eat. All-you-can-eat culture!

Jack:
[25:50] But this is also something ... Like the gay culture, I feel like my experiences in other cities is like gay culture is known for being very superficial, I think, stereotypically, and I feel like we get away with a lot of stuff being gay men because we are superficial to other men. You know, it's like we keep it all internal, like we're horrible people to ourselves.

Jae:
[26:14] One hundred ... Oh, we can talk all about that!

Jack:
[26:16] And it's like wildly problematic. But I do think that's also a shift where in Berlin, people's like different bodies are celebrated more here than they are in other places, where it is like a very defined, clean-cut type situation.

Jae:
[26:29] Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Jack:
[26:32] So that's nice. But yeah, I mean, Grindr works here too! And you can really have sex, as much sex as you want to have, if you're available, for sure, I think.

Jae:
[26:44] Yeah.

Jack:
[26:46] But yeah, I think it probably depends. And there's people who prefer to have sex through the apps, or you can also go to there's lots of sex parties, also for straight people, like Kitkat, and stuff like that, like they have ... there's like a huge gay or like a straight sex club scene here.

Jae:
[27:07] It is ... Berlin is a very sex positive place, and I think that's really healthy because it kind of not eradicates, but it lessens the idea of the taboo aspect of things, you know? And you still, of course, like I said, not always but most times you have these spaces where you can feel comfortable, you know, portraying these things. Of course things happen. Of course, always, no matter what, but I think it is easy to have that, but it's also easy to get caught up in, too. So for anybody, make sure if you're having fun, make sure you get tested, make sure you're communicating with your partners what your status is. There's a lot of clinics here that do free, not free, but they do HIV / STD / STI testing. I can recommend a place called Mann-O-Meter. That place is really good. It's spelt M-A-N-N-O-M-E-T-E-R. And then for doctors, there's a lot of, like I think, queer-identifying doctors, that's what you can go to.

Queer Doctors

Jack:
[28:16] Which, I would say, like a pro tip for anyone living in Berlin and wants to have like a more regular doctor, find a gay doctor. Find a gay doctor, because straight doctors are problematic ...

Jae:
[28:27] Yeah.

Jack:
[28:28] ... and just horrible!

Jae:
[28:31] Yeah. You can't feel comfortable telling them anything.

Jack:
[28:32] And obviously there are nice straight doctors, sure. I don't know them. I don't know anyone who goes to them. Like it's jus the stories that particularly women have when they go to doctors: Being a gay man in Berlin you're going to be fine, finding a gay doctor, fine, fine, fine. Being a woman, even in gay doctors, you can still have wild ... like these conversations that I hear that they have with these doctors are just like, it's still, yeah, it's just very weird. And the German healthcare system, stuff like that is also just like archaic. Great in certain ways, archaic in other ways. And so, but I would say, in general, good rule of thumb, find a gay doctor, register with them, and that way ... It's also handy, like, I mean we've literally just lived through a pandemic. The gay doctors were the best at that. Also, like the whole situation with monkeypox at the moment, like having a regular gay doctor, also great.

Jae:
[29:33] Yes, I went to ... there's a doctor, it's the practice, Goldsteen? Goldstein? I don't know how you pronounce that, but like when it comes to, let's say, monkey pox for example, they were some of the first doctors to really understand. Like I was hearing stories ... like one of my friends, he went to just his own doctor, and they wouldn't even help them. They were kind of like: Go away! But this other doctor, because obviously he started in this community, was a lot more understanding, a lot more compassionate, a lot more knowledgeable about the situation, stuff like that. So.

Jack:
[30:11] I also think that one of the benefits of being gay and having like the open dialogue and this very sex-positive culture in Berlin, is I found that the openness, that people discuss things like STIs and getting checked, is much greater here than it is in other spaces. And from the discussions I've had with friends who live in other cities, like gay men who live in other cities, it's also not like that there. You know like if ... There's a lot more shame around testing positive for something. There's ...

[High Frequency sound]

Jae:
[30:46] Hold on!

Jack:
[30:49] Is it out there or is it in here?

Jae:
[30:50] It's in here. But like can you hear it on the mic?

Jack:
[31:43] So that people on the outside think that must be hard, and then once you actually sit down and use it, you're like: Oh, technology! It's really really really, really ...

Jae:
[31:49] I'm taking over your job now, bro. You ... technology is ... killing all of our jobs. You have been exposed, Manuel! Hey Manuel, well yeah we had a little issue. We, we fixed it, we fixed it. Yeah.

Jack:
[32:02] We fixed it together equally at this hour ...

Jae:
[32:09] Okay, so do you remember what you were talking about?

Jack:
[32:12] Mmm. I literally don't know what I'm talking about even as I say it, so like I don't know what we were talking about!

Jae:
[32:19] I know we were talking about doctors ... Oh no, okay, no. No, you were talking about the fact that like the whole conversation about STDs and STIs, we have it more here.

Jack:
[32:29] Yeah. And I feel like from the discussion I had with people who may be HIV-positive or something like that, is that they feel much more comfortable disclosing their status here than they feel like in other cities, and I think that's very important. Like I feel like there's a lot of huge steps that we've made, or like we collectively have made, with like PrEP and things like that, mean that one of the biggest hurdles when you do test positive for something like this, is the crazy social stigma that is just still very present. And when you speak to straight people, straight-identifying people, they don't know about PrEP, they don't know ... Like even straight doctors here, they're like, "What's PrEP?" I'm like: What? You're a doctor, what are you talking about, "What is PrEP?" Like it's kind of wild there. Yeah, the different levels of knowledge that straight people have.

Jae:
[33:29] Yeah. There is also another doctor I can recommend people go to, I'm trying to pull it up super super fast on my computer, but sometimes you might need to, like if you've been exposed or whatnot to a certain STD or STI, or yeah anything like that, you need to go to a doctor the day of. So I have a recommendation. Just bear with me, please.

Jack:
[34:01] I think there's that Mann-O-Meter. There's also one called, man*check, which also has throughout the city, different clinics that they set up where you can go and get tested, also vaccinated.

Jae:
[34:12] Can you pronounce this name?

Jack:
[34:15] Praxis [an der] Kulturbrauerei. Yeah, I think it's in Prenzlauer Berg? Yeah. Okay. I did not know about that place.

Jae:
[34:23] Yeah. That place you can go the day of. And that one's actually free.

Jack:
[34:26] The good thing, like lots of ... The way the German healthcare system is set up is like good doctors fill up, like they have a limited number of patients they can see, and that's why it's important to register with one. A good one.

Jae:
[34:38] It is. This place though was like a walk-in, like a day-of place that you can go to, which was super cool.

Jack:
[34:45] Oh, nice. Okay. That's yeah, I don't mean like appointments per day. I mean people that are allowed to go there. It's so weird and it's ... I don't know why.

Jae:
[34:47] Yeah. Yeah, people that actually ... yeah.Yes it's hard. I mean we have a good health care system and ...

Jack:
[34:55] We have a health care system, which is good. But yeah, there's definitely room for improvement.

Jae:
[35:00] There's always room for improvement.

Dating

[35:03] So next I want to talk about - which I have zero experience on but ... I've been on a few dates, but the dating scene, like how is that here in Berlin?

Jack:
[35:11] I don't know if I'm the best person to speak to about dating. Dating is ... it definitely happens. I hear about it!

Jae:
[35:19] It exists!

Jack:
[35:20] People do it, for sure. It's like ... like Santa Claus right? He definitely exists. I'm like, I don't know, dating scenes, the dating scene exists. I think maybe this partying and dating might not be the healthiest scene if you're looking for like a long term situation, I don't know, from ... It's hard to give a definitive answer. I don't really date. I meet people, sure. Date is a very strong word.

Jae:
[35:56] It's a different word.

Jack:
[35:58] But the thing is I don't really know many straight couples. So I don't know if the very few gay couples that I know is some sort of sign or should say something about the gay dating scene, but I haven't been on a date in a really long time. I don't think ... I'm sure there's a gay dating scene?

Jae:
[36:22] Jack is over here just living his best life! He's independent, and he doesn't need a man in ...

Jack:
[36:26] If you want a man, they're there.

Jae:
[36:28] Yeah, they are there. I would say like ... I think I've been on a few dates, but I'm not really into the dating scene as well. I'm too much living my greatest life. Yeah.

Jack:
[36:40] Yeah. It's also about expectations and I think that for me, or if you go into a situation with certain expectations, you have to make sure that those expectations align with the other person's, otherwise you're maybe not get hurt, but you're going to be disappointed. And so I think just one of the great things about being gay, I think, and in gay relationships or situations, is because we haven't had like historically, like a route that you must take in terms of like dating, getting married, all that stuff. We've had to come up with what works best for each personal ...

Jae:
[37:23] Yes, and it's always different.

Jack:
[37:24] ... individual situation. And so you communicate a lot more. Like you feel ... I don't know, I feel like that forced gay people to communicate better. Also, we also suck at it!

Jae:
[37:37] Yeah. Yeah. We communicate in the ways we probably should communicate, but then not in the ways that kind of ... Yeah.

Jack:
[37:44] Yeah. We have our own set of problems. I think there's also just like the whole stereotyping straight relationships in which it's like: Oh, the women don't, you know ... like men don't know that women shit or fart and you're like: What? And gay men can't really do that. We don't have like the luxury of being shy about bodily functions.

Jae:
[38:12] Yes, of the ignorance, you know. We ... Yes.

Jack:
[38:13] Yeah. We can't be ignorant because we are both experiencing it. Which is really nice.

Jae:
[38:18] Which ... it sometimes helps, you know. I know there is a dating scene. I mean like obviously if you go on the apps, you can't like ... like ... like find it, but it really does depend on the person. The people that I've seen who are in couples though, like, a lot of them - and maybe this is a gay thing, but something I've found - 99% of couples that I have met, gay couples that have met here in Berlin, are always in an open relationship.

Jack:
[38:44] Yeah. And that's the thing that I think some gay men that I've met struggle with. Some don't.

Jae:
[38:48] Mm hmm.

Jack:
[38:49] And because if... I mean, personally, I just think that it feels quite archaic being in a close relationship, but if that's what you're into, find someone else who's into that, and then it will work out. But it is going to be a really rough ride I think/ I mean I'm sure they exist, as I said, like I don't want to say that they don't, but yeah, I don't know them, and I'm not in one, but I ... yeah, open relationships, it's just like a much more modern way to feel about relationships. You have to think about what do you want from a relationship, emotionally, sexually, physically, all these different ways. And yeah ...

Jae:
[39:34] Yeah. And yeah. And I would say that since our main demographic are people who are new here, don't come here looking to date.

Jack:
[39:46] Yeah, I mean, I think in general if you're constantly on the prowl for that, it's not gonna work. You just have to be like, you just ... if you find ... if you feel comfortable, find spaces you're comfortable in, you'll meet other people who feel comfortable there, and then maybe you'll be in an open relationship later. But there's no no promises. And I think it's all just about expectations, making sure that your expectations align with the situation or at least with the other person.

Jae:
[40:20] Yeah. And that's definitely something that I think should be discussed more about, you know, communication is very important. I think when you come to Berlin, everyone's ... like, and that's why I kind of recommend, you know, maybe take a step back, because there's so much you can do here in Berlin, and you're meeting new people all the time. All the time. You know, it's like I just recommend just don't get yourself pigeonholed into a situation and then you lose out on these other opportunities, so that you can't ... And then also I just have just a rule for myself that if ever I am crushing on a guy, or I like somebody or whatnot, always give it three months.

Jack:
[40:56] Wow! Three months is a long time, even like ...

Jae:
[40:58] It is a long time! But always in three months I've even, like if I've crushed on the guy or whatnot, by three months you know if you like that person or not. And I would say ninety-nine percent of the time, I lose always attraction for them, always do.

Jack:
[41:12] Yeah. Two weeks ... No, it depends. But it's also, yeah, I think the thing is because it's like why you can also ... People often ask themselves, ask just in general, like: Why is the Berlin scene, why is the gay scene, so like this? And it probably does have a lot to do with trauma, which we romanticize that, but it's like ... so you just ... everyone needs to work on themselves. And while there is a lot of talk about self, like working on themselves in the queer community, like especially within the queer community, it doesn't always happen, and people get hurt, unfortunately.

Jae:
[41:55] Yeah, but I will say there's one pro. Because I love to talk to these relationship people. I'm very curious about them, especially if I'm in the club! So I like ask them like: Why don't you guys ... if you guys are just ... like why do you guys date? You can just be friends or whatnot. But they mentioned to me that - it's a good point - that there's always this emotional aspect of things that you don't really get if you're just doing hookups or you're just meeting people at clubs and whatnot. You know, that's something that takes a lot of time to nurture and stuff like that.

Jack:
[42:29] Yeah, and the communicating. Because if the thing that is really the problem, or ... like what is the lying? Like if someone cheats on someone, it's less about the sexual act, it's more about the lying and they're keeping a secret from the other person, in this person that you trust. And so if you're both open, like being open forces you to be more open and communicate exactly how you feel what's happening. And I think that the couples that I know that have been together the longest are all open and do all communicate, and that doesn't mean they're not constantly happy but they're all - no one is - but like they still talk to each other about stuff, and if you think ... Yeah, they're just telling each other what they're doing, and talking to each other about: I'm going to go meet this other guy, blah, blah, blah, hook up. How do you feel about that? They say: I don't feel comfortable with that right now. You know, like it's just important to talk about it, I think. It's like you really realize when you are living in a space where sex is so available, how little it can mean really, in terms of like emotionally, like obviously there's sex that when there's also emotion there, it's a different thing, but if you aren't in the mood for that, you are just in the mood for sex ... But yeah, and disconnecting these, being able to disconnect these things, can have positive side effects, can have negative side effects, for sure. Yeah.

Jae:
[44:08] Yeah. But yeah, I mean Berlin is a good ... it can it can be a good place. I don't know if it will be a place where I would settled down with a person or whatnot, but I think it's definitely, I think like a ...

Jack:
[44:22] Like settle down in terms of like if you would live here for a long time? Or if you would date someone here?

Jae:
[44:27] Date ... more on the dating, marrying like that type of pathway or whatnot, because I think, I don't know, Berlin still has like a certain atmosphere, certain culture ... Granted I am a single 24-year-old man, so this four months ...

Jack:
[44:40] And you've been here for literally five seconds, so ...

Jae:
[44:44] Exactly! We're actually making four months tomorrow. Hasn't even been four months, that's the crazy thing!

Jack:
[44:48] Wow! That's wild. That's wild!

Jae:
[44:52] That's the crazy thing. Four months, guys, because this will be released after August 19th 2022.

Jack:
[44:59] Four months. So much has happened. What a journey!

Jae:
[45:00] Yeah, so much has happened, so much has happened, so much. Like okay, and that's my thing y'all ...

Jack:
[45:06] Ah! So because we did the first podcast, like the day you got here or when did you ... ?

Jae:
[45:10] Yeah. No, we did the first one with me and you together, that was before I got here, We did the biking one, was the first one we were together, and that was when I was in Texas. And then we did the second one ...

Jack:
[45:18] Oh yeah! Wow! Honestly, that feels like several lifetimes ago. Was it cold? I feel like it might have been cold.

Jae:
[45:32] No, I think I was like in March? It was like in March, that was a little bit right before I got here.

Jack:
[45:36] My brain, whatever season ... Like if it's hot, my brain completely blocks out all cold memories.And then, as soon as it becomes cold again, I have no hot memories, it's always winter. And so it's important that we figure out what ... Maybe I don't remember.

Jae:
[45:52] That we figure out where we're at! Yeah, we're digressing, but yeah, yeah, it's been, yeah, it's been a minute, which is a big reason why I'm like. if you are coming here, let yourself have time to just explore and just like let go and find yourself, because every day I'm finding different things like ...

Gay Areas

[46:14] Like I was introduced to ballroom culture. I went to Beyonce's [Club] Renaissance Listening Party here in Berlin.

Jack:
[46:20] Wow! I definitely didn't find that album early on Telegram. I didn't, I didn't.

Jae:
[46:24] Really? Okay, you know how I found that out? I found that out because I was - and this is how big, but also how small Berlin is - I was literally walking to the grocery store or shop, whatever you want to call it, and I ran into a friend who was literally on his way to the event, and he's like, "Hey you want to come?" and I was like, "Yeah!" I was just going to the shop!

Jack:
[46:42] Why not? I saw videos from it. It would have been amazing.

Jae:
[46:46] It was nice, it was a good time. Free drinks, just a fun crowd, you know?

Jack:
[46:49] Just a fun crowd. It was like the official one.

Jae:
[46:52] Yes, it's the one where if you look on Sony Music Germany, they released a video for it.

Jack:
[47:58] Ah! I think a friend was voguing there maybe. Really. Wow! Where was that?

Jae:
[47:04] Yeah, it was a nice time. That was in Nollendorfplatz.

Jack:
[47:14] Ah! Okay, obviously, that's like the gay area. I suppose, like some very generic areas in which you can be in Berlin, there's Schöneberg, Nollendorfplatz, these are like the historically gay areas - excuse - historic!

Jae:
[47:26] Yes, yes, okay.

Jack:
[47:29] It does have the scene, yeah.

Jae:
[47:30] Those are also the areas where there's predominantly more like the older generation, not more younger crowd or whatnot.

Jack:
[47:37] Yeah. And then, basically, yeah, the younger gay crowd is everywhere else.

Jae:
[47:42] Yes, it is honestly like that. That's the hard part of ... gays are like everywhere. Yes, there is the historic areas in Berlin, but Berlin, like there is no one gay place. We really are everywhere. I was, well ...

Jack:
[47:58] And if we're not there we'll come there and then it will be gay! And then people get angry but you know not in a homophobic way, just like: Why is everyone so loud now?

Jae:
[48:01] It will be gay. Period. Yeah: It's because of them, the queers. But I do find maybe like Kreuzberg, Neukölln, Friedrichshain, that is like a more hip gay area or whatnot.

Jack:
[48:18] They're just generally like the more younger vibe areas, and then as you get younger and younger, everyone ... I mean it feels like everyone born after us is queer or gay at some level, and these words mean different things, depending on which area you're from, you know,

Jae:
[48:35] Yeah, that's very true, that's very true.

Queer or Gay?

Jack:
[48:40] Yeah, there used to be a time where like "queer" and "gay" were like basically the same word, and now it's like they're very, I feel like quite loaded.

Jae:
[48:47] They've got ... Yeah, and honestly ... I don't really ... Sometimes ... How do you identify?

Jack:
[48:52] I identify ... I think I identify as gay. In some cities, maybe I would count as queer. For me, the idea of being queer feels much more political than I feel like I am.

Jae:
[49:07] For sure, okay.

Jack:
[49:08] And so that's why I don't ... like especially in Berlin, like the queer scene, I mean it's just for me, my experience is that yeah, it has a political element, which I'm not. I don't know, I don't feel as like ... I don't feel like I do enough stuff to be political.

Jae:
[49:25] For sure. You don't get the queer card!

Jack:
[49:28] But so yeah, so I play the gay card, but ... yeah.

Jae:
[49:33] I intertwine them sometimes like it is ... it is all gray.

Jack:
[49:38] But yeah, it's all ... it's all gray, None of these terms are like fest. Like they're all ...

Jae:
[49:43] Yeah, because I mean because like the queer word, is still like, it's not relatively new, but it's been relatively, at least in my experience, it's yeah, it's been used a lot more than it used to, in a more positive light. You know, it used to be a very negative term, but now it's been taken back by the queer community in a more positive fashion. Gay was always there for me to like identify as, but sometimes if I'm talking about ... like if I'm saying I'm going with my friends who - not everybody in my friend group is gay - then that is a better term to use. "the queer community". Because it's also, I'm like: Sorry, but I'm not going to keep saying, "LGBTQIA+" all the time, too. It's just, there's a lot of words in that.

Jack:
[50:23] Yeah, no, "queer" is a good umbrella term.

Jae:
[50:25] Yeah, so I think "queer" kind of ... And then like sometimes I just do ... I feel just queer you know, like, like, like ... but then like sometimes I just feel gay as well, you know. It's just, you can be both. It's a rainbow, you know, you choose what color you want to be.

Jack:
[50:37] Yeah, you can be both. You can be anything you want. We own the rainbow now!

How to Make Friends with Other Gays

Jae:
[51:52] You went on a ... ? Story Time, bru!

Jack:
[51:54] We planned to ... It was a girl. I was in this like middle phase and I was like: I'm bi. Like, you know bi people exist for sure, but for me it was a journey, and it was ... She was writing on Tinder like: My friend's in Barcelona, I wanna go to Barcelona, lets go to Barcelona. I was like: Okay I'll do that. We booked tickets, literally two days later we met at Tegel Airport in Berlin, spent three days together, continued to kind of hook up a little bit, but then I was like varying much more towards gay at the time. And through that meeting we ... she then ... it was like completely being consumed by all of my friends, and that was years and years and years ago now, like over five or six years ago. And so you just, you can't plan it, but you will find people, if you feel comfortable with where you are and with yourself and stuff like that, for sure.

Jae:
[52:54] You can't plan it. That's one thing that I realized. Like when I first got here, I'm like: Okay, I'm gonna go here here, here here, and friendships ... I mean, no ...

Jack:
[53:01] You don't know what sticks.

Jae:
[53:03] Yeah. And friendships aren't ... I don't know. I think the more organic a friendship can be, the more sustainable the friendship will be as well, you know. And also, something that I had to realize or get okay with, was this comfortability. Like if I meet somebody as not hanging out all the time right then and there, but for some friendships that take time, where you hang out this one week and you might not see them again for three more weeks or whatnot, you always have to keep the effort, and put the effort in, of course.

Jack:
[53:38] Yeah. I always used to say the best way to like speed ... or like bond with someone ... When I was like ... I was in London or when I first moved to Berlin, was being hungover with someone. You somehow bond in a way because you don't want to talk, you don't want to do anything, you're just feeling like total crap, but you're doing it together, and that bonds people. Like everyone's walls are down, because they're just like hungover and shivering and life is really hard. And so that's, I think, why the queer and the party scene are so intertwined, because a lot of people are in these situations where they might not be like completely inhibited by their insecurities, and that allows them to meet people.

Jae:
[54:29] Yeah, for sure, for sure, that's very true. Another way to meet people is by living with other gay people as well, because you see that person all the time. I don't have that many suggestions on where to find ... but I do know there is a Queer Housing Berlin WG [ / Queer WG Flats Berlin] Facebook group that I found my last roommate that I was living here with, and then my potential roommate that I might live with, which I'll check out today actually for that. So that is my last bit of advice. But honestly, if you're just coming here to Berlin, or if you are here in Berlin, enjoy the ride. Being gay is chaotic. Being queer as chaotic. A lot of fun, for sure.

Jack:
[55:11] But a lot of fun. It gives you like a very defined community, but one also that you can kind of create yourself. Yeah, 10 out of 10, would do it again!