How to Marry a German

Stephanie:
[3:53] Yeah, it's an ongoing debate. I think Oklahoma is technically the plains or the South, yeah.

Chris:
[3:57] Okay. But I imagine Oklahoma compared to Indiana is very similar fashion-wise, maybe. We're not so fashion-forward like any of the coasts. And yeah, I had very similar observations. Like Berlin feels like it's a place where anything goes. Like anybody can dress however they want. The default might be black. Like if you want to blend in, just wear black.
If you want to try to stand out, anything goes, like you won't be judged.

Manuel:
[4:26] Yeah, and that's the point. You can stand out, but you won't be judged. Like there are people wearing outfits that in other places in Germany would turn heads, where in Berlin, everybody's just like: Eh, whatever. Whatever floats your boat.

Chris:
[4:27] Right, right. I feel like, I don't know, my friends in the States make fun of me for being like this, like typical Midwest guy who wears stuff from, like Kohl's, like, you know.

Manuel:
[4:39] What's Kohl's?

Chris:
[4:40] Kohl's is like a really boring department store.

Stephanie:
[4:48] Aha! Like ... yeah.

Manuel:
[4:53] Is it the equivalent of C&A in Germany?

Stephanie:
[4:54] Maybe like Ernsting's family ... ? Yeah. Yeah.

Chris:
[4:55] I haven't been there.

Manuel:
[4:59] Oh, yeah. That's even more ... Yeah.

Chris:
[4:59] And I feel like in a way, in a place where anybody can wear anything, this is the one thing that really stands out, where you're like: What's this guy? Like American Dad, or something?

Manuel:
[5:11] Well, you are an American dad, so I think that's fine. Okay. So what's the bottom line here? Have you changed your style of clothing?

Stephanie:
[5:21] I think I have a little bit. I'll say that. I think I'm a little more aware of what I'm wearing, not so much because I'm worried that I'll stand out or something, but more, it's just kind of interesting here. And so I can experiment with fashion a little more than maybe I would have in the US.

Manuel:
[5:41] It's interesting how going to a different place does that. I look back at pictures of me being in the US as an exchange student, and I was wearing like jeans-jackets, which I think the US did to me. Like jeans are such a thing, and I was just like: Sure, like jeans-pants, jeans- jacket, let's just make it all jeans. Now I'm like: Why did I do that?

Stephanie:
[6:05] I think, technically, jeans and the jacket are called a Canadian Tuxedo, so maybe it's that. Anyway. Yeah.

Manuel:
[6:07] Ohhh! Okay. I found your email. Point number two: How to attend a house party or a gathering. "It seems common ..." Can I read your email on the air?

Stephanie:
[6:17] Sure.

Manuel:
[6:25] "It seems common to greet everybody by shaking their hand, even if it takes a really long time. Bringing something with you. Smoking is fine. Always taking off shoes. Planning many weeks in advance."

Stephanie:
[6:37] Yeah, that's kind of what I've observed. And so because I'm married to a German, I've been to a lot of family gatherings and such, and one thing I noticed is everyone really takes the time to greet every single person. I guess I've heard sometimes you can, like, knock on the table or something, okay, to speed up the process, I guess.

Manuel:
[6:58] Yes, but that's a really good distinction, I think. Yeah. Especially at a family gathering or if it's like close friends, you do greet everybody. And depending on the type of relationship, you shake hands or you hug.

Stephanie:
[6:59] Right. Okay.

Manuel:
[7:13] And the knocking on the table kind of thing is if the group is really big already, and they're all seated around the table and it would be kind of hard to reach them all, and also, you're not that close to them. Then you can just come in and say [knock-knock]: Hello, everybody! But it's definitely like more respectful to greet everybody individually.

Stephanie:
[7:30] Yeah. Yeah. How it's done in another. It's just.

Manuel:
[7:36] Is that not how it's done in other places? How do they do it in Indiana?

Stephanie:
[7:41] I mean ... Yeah, what's your thoughts?

Chris:
[7:44] I mean, it definitely depends on like what type of gathering you're talking about, I think. I mean, even with my family gatherings in the States, it wasn't so formal. Like, I think people notice that you arrive and they're like: Okay, he's here, she's here. Like, I'll get around to saying hello at some point, but like, I don't need to, like, interrupt things in order to do that. But the knocking on the table, that's a really efficient like, you know, way of announcing ...

Stephanie:
[8:08] Yeah. Very German. Yeah. I think in the US, maybe it's more important that you say goodbye to everyone. So maybe, yeah, you just sort of walk into the family reunion and just say, like, Hey, everybody, I'm here! And then when you leave, you make sure that you say goodbye.

Manuel:
[8:20] That's funny because I feel like it's a little bit the reverse here. I feel like when you go, you can kind of wave and say: I'm off. See you later.

Chris:
[8:34] I feel like we made a joke about this in Easy German. Like there's, like you know, it's just like this abrupt, like: So! and then gone!

Manuel:
[8:34] Right. There's the clapping on your knees and saying, like: So! Ich gehe dann jetzt! That's the German way to leave.

Stephanie:
[8:45] To exit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think ... Well what just struck me was it just took a long time. I think it's very respectful and nice, but I was always like: Man! We're taking like a few minutes here just to, like, greet everyone!

Manuel:
[8:55] Mm hmm.

Chris:
[9:04] So I wonder, like, in like the family gatherings that you talk about, are there other people from other countries? Or are you kind of the exotic American in the group?

Stephanie:
[9:04] Yeah. So I'm the only American for sure. We do have a Swedish family member that's made her way in as well, but the rest of them are all Germans.

Chris:
[9:14] Right. 'Cause I wondered if that played a role when it happened to me as well. I felt like in a way I was like this different guest from all the others, and therefore everybody wanted to like, I don't know, test my German or see like, you know, like how am I in this situation? And so I was never sure, like maybe I just didn't notice whether that happened to everybody else, or I just felt my own experience so strongly. Yeah.

Stephanie:
[9:42] Ttue, true. I tend to observe myself a lot in those family situations, but not wanting to, you know, step on anyone's toes or anything. But also knowing that you are family, so it's okay to, you know ... Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Manuel:
[10:05] ... Learn. So then bringing something with you, you've already demonstrated that you 'learned' that's how it's done, you brought some chocolate for us. Thank you.

Stephanie:
[10:14] You're welcome.

Manuel:
[10:17] Yeah, I guess it is true ... I mean, it depends a little bit ... Yeah, It is good to bring something with you, but it's a little bit less of a 'must', I feel. I don't know.

Stephanie:
[10:18] Sure. Maybe it depends on how close you are with the people. If you plan ahead and say: I'm bringing the wine, you're bringing the cheese. Then ... Yeah.

Manuel:
[10:24] Right. Yeah, but bringing flowers never hurts. Bringing some food never hurts. Smoking is fine? How did that make the list? I feel like smoking is not ... Well, smoking is fine outside.

Stephanie:
[10:47] Yeah. Well, I went to a party with some, just like friends, acquaintances recently. And I think, as an American, I'm always kind of like rolling my eyes about smoking. Just, it does kind of bother me, I'm still, like, adjusting to that. But at the party, it was like, no big deal. There was maybe like 15, 20 people at the party, and probably like five of them were outside smoking, and I think I was outside on the balcony as well, and it was like no big deal just to light it up. And I think for some reason that shocked me. Yeah..

Manuel:
[11:19] Yeah. Interesting. I think we're like, it's not the case anymore, that it's just fine to smoke inside. I think when I was at college, there were many parties still where people would just smoke inside, and that's definitely changed, where now I think everybody who smokes goes to the balcony or outside. I don't think there are that many parties anymore where people smoke inside. But outside is fair game. Like outside. Like if you happen to also be on the balcony, like. Yeah, Tough luck! Yeah.

Stephanie:
[12:00] Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. Yeah, I accept it. Yeah, sure.

Manuel:
[12:02] I mean, I feel the same. I smoke bothers me as well. Like I'm not a smoker, but yeah, I think that's the line basically where outside is fine.

Stephanie:
[12:08] Sure. Yeah.

Manuel:
[12:13] Yeah. Okay. Always taking off your shoes. Big one in Germany, or at least always asking at like ... Like, because many places ... I mean, I ask my guests to take off their shoes, if they don't do it automatically, because why would you wear your shoes inside? It doesn't make any sense. Yeah.

Stephanie:
[12:28] Yeah, this is ... Do you want to?

Chris:
[12:32] Yeah, I mean, we we take off our shoes all the time at home. I always do it just as a default whenever I go anywhere else. It feels weird to me in our office here for Easy German, Easy Languages, to leave the shoes on, because it's like an apartment, like it's a nice place. And yeah, to walk around from room to room feels a little odd.

Stephanie:
[12:40] Four easy German, easy languages to leave the shoes on because I thought the same. Like, it's a nice place. And yeah, to walk around from room to room feels a little odd. But within like my German family here, like house shoes are a big thing. You take off your shoes and you put on your house shoes ... And I can't get used to that. I'm just like, Yeah, I just want to walk around in my socks, like.

Stephanie:
[12:49] ... They're provided for you ... Yeah.

Manuel:
[12:49] But I've never used house shoes in my life. But I have, like for the colder months of the year, I have thicker socks that I then wear. And sometimes I bring them with me. Like if I go to a party or like a friend and I know we'll be there for a while and it's December, I will have my socks in my backpack and bring them ... No, no, Those go on top.

Chris:
[13:13] ... And it's not the ones that you're already wearing in your shoes? ...

Stephanie:
[13:23] They're specifically for the house, I guess, for inside. A funny story is that my husband will bring his house shoes with him on a vacation, even. Like we recently were on a trip and he stuck those house shoes in the suitcase before we left the house - and I found that funny. And when we were living in the US, too - it's not as common to take your shoes off - and so he would ask every single person when they came into the apartment to please take their shoes off. And at first I was like: Oh, is it that big of a deal? But it was important to him. And so that's what we did. Yeah.

Manuel:
[14:05] Okay. And then planning many weeks in advance. That's also very German. I mean, yeah, we just love to put things on our calendars.

Stephanie:
[14:05] I think it's good, though. It makes you actually follow through.

Manuel:
[14:13] Yeah. And it makes it so that everybody actually, you know, will be there, because they knew in advance. Yeah.

Stephanie:
[14:21] Right.

Chris:
[14:24] Yeah, I do miss the spontaneity, though, because we ... like we know a lot of our neighbors on our street, and we'll see them be like: Hey, maybe we can do something this weekend?
And, I don't know, it rarely happens ... Fully booked, yeah, exactly. Yeah. A few weeks too late for that invite!

Stephanie:
[14:37] ... Yeah. Yeah ...

Manuel:
[14:39] ... Fully booked. Too late! ... Okay. Next point on your list: Formality. "I notice most of the letters I receive in the mail always include Frau in front of my name, and I was often referred to as Frau ---" (and then your last name, I don't know if you want to share) ...

Stephanie:
[14:52] Right.

Manuel:
[14:54] ... "throughout the duration of my meetings at various offices. This feels very formal to me." I mean, yeah, I mean, in the US, I mean, especially in like in California and stuff, everybody's just on a first name basis.

Stephanie:
[15:10] Yeah, I think what stuck out to me the most was at the doctor's office we went to, and it was like the doctor was calling me Frau, and any kind of visa appointment we went to, and it was kind of repeatedly. It wasn't just the first time they met you, it was every single time they addressed you. It was kind of sweet, it felt very kind and respectful. But it kind of struck me - strikes me - a little bit. Just, you can just call me, Stephanie.

Manuel:
[15:29] Yeah, the whole du versus Sie topic, we debated it on Easy German, or tried to explain it on Easy German, and there are some general rules and kind of guidelines, but very often it's such a 'you-just-feel-it' thing you know. Like I interview people on the street and I make the decision. Like I don't even think about how will I address this person. It's just somehow du feels right and safe, or not. And it has to do with age, of course, but also with like attire, and general ... I don't know, like: Do you feel like that person wants the formal, more respectful Sie, or let chill?

Chris:
[16:24] I find this topic actually easier, like out in the public, than I do in the family situations. Because like, in public I can more easily default to like Sie when I'm in doubt. But when like my mother-in-law has like all of her older friends around and they're like long time family friends, and my wife has used du for decades, and then I'm suddenly thrown in this mix with these older, very formal people, it feels so awkward for me to like, use du. Like. I feel like I just got jumped into this du situation that would otherwise very easily be a Sie.

Manuel:
[17:03] No, I've definitely been there where like, for example, as a teenager, I was around my friend's parents all the time, but they never really addressed ... like I never really addressed them at all. But then there was a point where I needed to address them, and it very much felt like du should be okay, since we've spent so much time together, but they've never really offered it. But Sie would also seem weird all of a sudden, and so you kind of try to not even address them at all. Which is really ...

Chris:
[17:28] I'm glad you ... I'm glad you say this, because I do this all the time where I'm like: How can I formulate this to avoid, like, any pronoun at all?

Manuel:
[17:35] Right.

Stephanie:
[17:43] Interesting. Is it okay to just straight up ask? or or what you could do in most situations is just do the Z, because that faux pas like calling someone Z, like it happens with change all the time, for example.

Manuel:
[17:47] I think asking is okay, or what you could do in most situations is just do the Sie. Because that faux pas, like calling someone Sie, like it happens with Janusch all the time, for example, that we meet people who follow our work and stuff and they address him as Sie, and he immediately protests and says: Please stop. And then it's fine, right? Then you have the explicit permission and maybe that feels a little weird in some situations, but it's so much better than addressing someone with du. There's all these stories where someone addresses someone's mom or grandma or whatever as du, and then that person doesn't forgive them for like the next ten years, right? Like, you ...

Stephanie:
[18:14] Oh dear!

Manuel:
[18:24] ... I don't think it happens that often anymore, especially if you're a foreigner, I think people give a lot more leeway. But I would just if like, if you're not sure, just almost aggressively or proactively address them as Sie to kind of trigger that: No, no, please call me Heike, or whatever, and then you're fine.

Stephanie:
[18:46] Okay. Good tip. Yeah. Okay.

Manuel:
[18:47] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then the last point before we get to our main topic on your list, is the difference between an expat and an immigrant. And this is a great ... I love that you pointed that out because there isn't really! There's no difference! It's just that maybe there's like a difference in privilege, but ...

Stephanie:
[19:10] Right. Yeah.

Manuel:
[19:14] Yeah. There's no ... You're both immigrants.

Chris:
[19:18] We were talking about this actually on one of our recent video shoots with the ... I think with the summer school participants here for the Easy German Summer School. And there were people from a lot of different countries, and I think there was a magazine that somebody saw it called Exberliner. Is that a magazine?

Manuel:
[19:29] Er ...

Chris:
[19:36] And I think it's like an expat magazine for expats living in Berlin. Like it's not people who left Berlin, it's a Berlin magazine, from what we ... I don't know! From what we guessed as we looked at this, but it's brought up the debate like, what is an expat and what's an immigrant? And we kind of came to that same conclusion that it sounds almost like a privilege thing. Like what label do you get based on like, I don't know, probably like ... skin color, like, yeah, like Americans and Canadians are expats, but if you come from Syria, you're an immigrant. Like it seems like an unfair, like, arbitrary label. And expat, I don't know, it sounds like: Ah! I have more control, I have more power, I chose to do this, I wasn't, you know ...

Manuel:
[20:22] Exactly. Versus immigrant has kind of the connotation that you did it because you were unhappy at the place you were before, so you emigrated or you immigrated to Germany to seek a better life. Which is the same thing an expat is doing, but I guess, yeah, an expat is like: Oh, if I go back, it won't be too bad either, like ... I don't know.

Stephanie:
[20:43] Right. Well, and if you ... Expat means 'expatriate', right? So it means the same thing as immigrant. Like you've permanently sort of X-ed out your past, I guess, patriotism - I don't know how to describe that - but I think sometimes people say expat means, well, you're going to go back or something. But I think expat actually means no, like you've decided to officially leave.

Chris:
[21:07] Yeah. I don't know. This is just my initial feeling when I heard the term years ago, was that it was a little bit more official, like. And that made me wonder, too, if there was, like, something you had to do officially to get that label. Like, did you have to get rid of your, like, citizenship or take on something else? Like ...

Manuel:
[21:32] I don't think there is enough like an authority that gives you a title.

Chris:
[21:35] I don't have that feeling anymore either. But that was ... Like you hear this term like, expatriate, like 'ex,' it's ... That's in the past!

Stephanie:
[21:36] Right.

Manuel:
[21:42] Mm hmm..

Stephanie:
[21:44] Yeah.

Manuel:
[21:45] Yeah, I think maybe the connotation isn't necessarily that you'll stay forever, but that you're not just doing a year abroad or something. Like you moved here, you moved your life here, and now you're here. And maybe someday you'll go back, but you don't have any plans currently. But immigrant is essentially the same. It's just that ...

Stephanie:
[21:55] Right. You go to the immigration office to get your visa.

Manuel:
[22:07] Right. So what are we learning? Like, what's basically should we just try to not use the word expat, or use it for everybody? Like what's ... ? I don't know. How can we make this situation better?

Stephanie:
[22:07] I think that would help. Maybe just making the word immigrant the default word. Yeah.

Manuel:
[22:26] Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause it's not a dirty word. Like immigration has been around since humans have been around. And I think there's some negative connotations because of racism and things like that, but immigration is great. Like people move, and that's wonderful. And of course, there's problems to be solved, like with anything, but like, immigration ... Yeah.

Stephanie:
[22:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose in like the media or news, the term immigration gets thrown around a lot and maybe a negative connotation as well.

Manuel:
[22:54] Mm hmm.

Stephanie:
[23:03] Political ... Politics and such.And so maybe that's where some of that negative connotation comes from as well. But ...Yeah.

Manuel:
[23:12] Okay, I'm going to write to these people that make Exberliner, Berlin in English since 2000, to invite them on the show and lobby for them to change their name to Imberliner!

Stephanie:
[23:25] Imberlin ... Im ... Berlin ...

Manuel:
[23:32] Okay. I like all of these observations. Anything else that either of you found interesting or weird, moving to Berlin or Germany?

Chris:
[23:44] So many things, but this is like a whole culture shock episode then.

Stephanie:
[23:44] Yeah. Right. Yeah, I mean, those were my kind of main observations, I guess.Yeah.

Manuel:
[23:56] Okay. So then let's talk about the main topic, which is the difference or I guess, like being married to someone from Germany, and then what that means for your visa situation, and how it's different in the US - since you're both from the US, I mean, I'm sure this topic is kind of irrelevant for many people, but also very relevant for some people. And share what it was like for you.

Stephanie:
[24:31] So. Okay, so my husband and I were married in 2018 in the US and so at that time he was there on a student visa, and the student visa was expiring. And so we needed to take another step to continue living in the US So we applied for a Green Card, which is ... There's really no kind of in-between there between a, student visa ... There is like a fiancé visa, there's like a TV show maybe, 90 Day Fiancé ... Anyway, but that didn't apply to us, we were already married. And the Green Card process is pretty complicated. There's like a number of forms. I had to be like a sponsor for my husband and fill out a form. (Let me check my notes here.) And so there were two main forms that we had to complete, they were about ten pages each. And the first form, we had to pay US$535 for the for this form to be processed. And then the second form was $1225. So in total that's about $1700.

Manuel:
[25:56] So that was after you already got married, which also cost money. And this was basically to ask the State, now that you're married to have a Green Card, i.e. a visa for your husband.

Stephanie:
[25:59] Right. Right. So essentially, he was adjusting his status from student visa to permanent resident in the US.

Manuel:
[26:09] Right.
Stephanie:
[26:20] And so in addition to these forms, we also ... he had to go drive about 2 hours each way to do a biometric appointment, where essentially he drove 2 hours and scanned his thumb and then drove 2 hours back.

Manuel:
[26:33] All ... all the ... all ten fingers! And they keep those records for ever. Even if you're just visiting as a tourist, the US takes all ten fingers and saves them for 20 years. Even if you just have a layover in the US I think ... or depends a little bit ... If you need a visa. Yeah. I know. It's crazy.

Chris:
[26:52] ... If you have to go through the ... Yeah. So the cost that you just mentioned was that just the form submission cost? And did you use an attorney or did you do it all yourself? because it is ...

Stephanie:
[26:54] ... Yeah. I wonder what that archive is like. I have the ... Yeah. We decided not to get an attorney, which was ... It's just also a risk.We had some friends that did, and probably paid at least $3,000 for the attorney. It can easily add up. So we took the risk. We're like: We're smart people. We can figure this out. And so, yeah, so we paid that, sent the forms, he had to drive twice for biometric appointment, and then they send you an appointment for an interview, which is essentially to prove that you're in love, that you're married. And we had to compile a lot of evidence, so proof that we lived together, photos, and just like bank statements, how we made money, a bunch of things. And then we had to drive 3 hours to that appointment and we waited a while. And then you go into this office and it's very scary. You know, if you've ever traveled to the US through US Customs, it's it's a different feeling, you know, the agents are always a little bit more intense. So it was like that. The guy asked us, like: "So how did you meet?" and "Where did you go on your honeymoon?" and "How did you get to your honeymoon?" And we kind of like had to answer all these very personal, private questions and ... yeah. And so it was very nerve-wracking. And then we actually had a hiccup, because we had traveled during the time between mailing in our forms and the interview, and we were worried that that would have messed up the whole thing and we would have had to start all over and pay all over again. Thankfully, they figured it out, and he got the Green Card. But it took about, I don't know, five months? Five months from the interview, to get the card. So, yeah.

Manuel:
[29:15] I mean, before you tell us how how much easier all of this is in Germany, this whole process of proving that it is not a fake marriage and that you're actually in love or whatever ...

Stephanie:
[29:21] Hmm.

Manuel:
[29:30] ... Germany also does that, except it's done at the point where you marry. Like once you're married, you're married. No questions asked. It's on paper, it's official. But marriage ... Like a marriage between two Germans is just a matter of getting an appointment. But if a German wants to marry a non-German or a non-EU citizen I guess, they make you do the same thing in Germany. In other EU countries it's much easier, like in Denmark, but in Germany - also depends on the city a little bit, I think - but they will also ask for documentation of your relationship, photos, things like that. And so you essentially have to prove that you're in love, even though between Germans you can marry for tax reasons, and it's fine.

Stephanie:
[30:03] Okay. Interesting.

Chris:
[30:17] That is interesting because then, yeah, both of our situation is we got married in the States, right? We were married in the States, right? I was too embarrassed to, you know ... we have drive thrus where you can get that done and nobody's checking anything.

Stephanie:
[30:24] Yeah, in the States. Yeah, Yeah.

Manuel:
[30:24] Right. Once you're married, you're married. So you can get married.And then, well, if you marry outside of the EU ... you then still have to get that marriage approved somehow in Germany, I think.

Chris:
[30:30] ... That's what I mean, yeah ...

Stephanie:
[30:31] Yeah. So that reminds me kind of ... maybe this transition's a little ... One thing we were required to have was an Apostille. Did you have to have this for your marriage certificate?

Chris:
[30:49] I remember ... I don't ... I don't remember the details and I don't remember that word in particular, but we did have to do ... For basically every important life document we had in the States, we had to get it, you know, officially recognized here and translated. Like we have two daughters. We got their birth certificates, you know, officially documented here, our marriage license certificate as well. So maybe that's this process and I just don't remember the name?

Stephanie:
[31:12] Yeah, Yeah, that was ... So maybe I'll transition now to talk about our German experience. So, probably the most difficult thing like with anything, is getting an appointment at the Ausländerbehörde ... So as soon as I knew that we were moving here, I started looking for appointments every day.

Manuel:
[31:50] ... Yes ... Wait, why did you have to do this? Isn't that normally the role of the German spouse? Dealing with the appointments?

Stephanie:
[31:51] I don't know. I just dove right in. I wanted to do it, I guess! Maybe I should have had him do it. Then I wouldn't worry about it. But anyway, I looked into it. I was kind of interested because we had all this stuff in the US to do, and I was like: It's going to be easier in Germany. So ... Anyway, so I got an appointment just on a random day. And as a US citizen, you can enter Germany for three months, no problem. So the appointment was within those three months, and we had to have an Anmeldung, so our registration. I had to have an A1 German level certificate and our marriage certificate, and then the Apostille still to sort of prove that your marriage certificate was right. And then your passport photos, your spouse has to come with you. And then ours was €120. So I will say the first time we went ... We ... The first time we went, I didn't have some of the right information: I didn't have the Apostille, I had filled out a wrong form, I got my A1 certificate that morning on the train to the ... the office, as well, was stressful! And I was very worried because I grew up in the US, and all of the sort of, you know, agents, immigration officers were very strict and mean. And I was like: Oh my gosh! We have the wrong form! I'm going to be deported! or something ... Like I was really ... I was really concerned, you know ... I was like: I messed up, I don't have the right stuff, and I'm almost here three months. And and the agent, at least to me - I've heard some people don't have good experiences - was very kind, was like, "Oh, it's no big deal! Let me print off the correct form for you, and let me reschedule you an appointment." And he explained what the Apostille was, and he was like, "Next time, just bring these two things and you'll be good to go."

Manuel:
[34:25] ... In handcuffs ... Oh, my God, It's so great to hear a positive story of the Ausländerbehörde. Obviously, there are good people everywhere, and you got lucky. And I think I mean, the bad experiences also, maybe they're not even the majority. Maybe they just stick out like a sore thumb, you know, where they're so terrible and you feel so sorry. But that's great. You actually experienced service.

Stephanie:
[34:48] Yeah. And then ...

Manuel:
[34:48] Your husband is protesting!

Stephanie:
[34:52] Oh! What do you want to share? [Husband sotto voce: I'd just add one thing: the Fiktionsbescheinigung.] Oh, yeah! So, because I had the wrong information, they still gave me a temporary kind of ID visa; Fiktionsbescheinigung.

Manuel:
[35:09] Wow! So basically, you didn't leave empty-handed.

Stephanie:
[35:09] Yeah. Correct.

Manuel:
[35:14] They were like: Well, you didn't get the right thing, but you're here and we can tell that you are trying. So here's something temporary.

Stephanie:
[35:15] Right. And that I could even travel with that as well, if I needed to. We didn't. But yeah, so that was good. And then the second appointment came around. We had everything ready to go. We had a different agent, but he was also very kind. He even spoke a bit of English to me ...

Manuel:
[35:42] ... "Hallo! Velcome to Chermany!"

Stephanie:
[35:42] Yeah! And yeah, it was ... I had an okay experience, and it was very ... It was a lot cheaper, I will say so €120 for the actual visa. But then we did have to pay for the Apostille, the translations, and then I took a Goethe Institute exam which was about €120. So in total ... Oh and I also took a Goethe Institute class, which was very expensive. So according to my calculations, in Germany with class, translations, etc. is about €720.

Manuel:
[36:30] Right/ But if you already spoke German, you just needed to take a quick test, and you, for some reason, have a marriage certificate that's already certified or has that Apostille, €120. The most difficult part is getting the apartment.

Stephanie:
[36:30] Right. Definitely.

Manuel:
[36:42] And then they mail you a plastic card and then ... now you're a resident ... And so basically, with that Aufenthaltstitel that you have now, you can't vote.

Stephanie:
[36:51] ... And now I'm free! ... Right.

Manuel:
[36:58] And what else can't you do?

Stephanie:
[37:01] So I've heard conflicting things. Some people have told me I can sign ... what do you call it? Like ... what's it called? ... like Klimaneutral forms. Or like, if people come up to you and they're like: We want to support ...

Chris:
[37:16] Oh, yeah. Like when they're gathering signatures.

Stephanie:
[37:18] Yeah, I've heard conflicting things.

Manuel:
[37:19] Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I don't think you can. Or maybe you can. Maybe it depends on the kind of petition. Like some things you just have to be like a resident of the city, and some things you have to be a German citizen. Yeah.

Stephanie:
[37:27] Right. So I've signed some of those things and ...

Manuel:
[37:33] They check 'em. They check 'em. You can't sign them because they actually ... Like the reason you have to put the address and everything, is because someone actually types in every single address and checks if every vote is eligible. Yeah.

Stephanie:
[37:36] Wow! Okay. Yeah. So ... But I can work. I can .. travel, study.

Manuel:
[37:51] ... Travel ... And is there .... Because in the US, when you get a Green Card, at least the Green Card Lottery, which is another thing, but where you can essentially win a Green Card, it's like ... it's indefinite, unless you leave for like longer than six months at a time. Is there something like that for you as well? No. You can probably take off for two years and then come back and you ...

Chris:
[38:16] With the Aufenthaltstitel? That's a good question. If like ... I mean, you have to be registered here, so maybe it's connected to like a registration requirement, like: if you don't live in Germany for more than six months out of a year, are you automatically ... ?

Manuel:
[38:26] Would you then have to reapply for that title, or is it still valid?

Stephanie:
[38:36] Perhaps. I know mine expires in three years, so perhaps ...

Manuel:
[38:39] And then but then you get an indefinite one, I think. After three years you can go back, and then you get one that never expires. Right?

Stephanie:
[38:45] Right? I think so.

Chris:
[38:49] But my understanding is that does ... Like once you get that indefinite one, if you decide to move back to the States and you deregister here, then it goes away.

Manuel:
[38:49] Oh, really?

Chris:
[39:02] Yeah, you don't ... it's not like you now have this card for life. I think it is connected to being registered here. Yeah.

Stephanie:
[39:06] That makes sense, I guess. Yeah. Because, yeah, my husband did end up giving up his Green Card in order for us to move here. And so perhaps you can't be dual-registered in US and Germany.

Chris:
[39:15] Yeah. It's like so many laws, specifically tax laws, ask like: Where is your residence? And that's usually ... often defined as like, six months and a day. Like, where do you spend your year?

Manuel:
[39:21] Mm hmm.

Chris:
[39:34] For the most part, yeah.

Stephanie:
[39:30] Right. Yeah, tax! Yeah,

Manuel:
[39:34] Right. So, Chris, was the experience the same for you?

Chris:
[39:40] Yeah, similar in a lot of ways, but also a couple of differences that I noticed. So on the US side, I was ... I would have been too terrified to try to do those forms by myself like you guys did, because it is complex and you have this, like fear that like: Okay, this form costs $500, this form costs $1200, and you might just get back some really, like non-specific: You don't qualify. Try again. And you're like: Great. I'll apply again with another $1200. But we were lucky because my wife was already in the States for work, and so her company had sponsored her work visa and that could last up to three years. I think it's like initially two years, plus it can get extended. So in that time where she was there, we met and we got married towards the end of that three-year work visa that she had. And then her company could have sponsored her further in a way somehow, to like, get like a permanent resident status, not just the work visa, but they were like: Oh, now she's married, like, this is an even easier avenue. So their law firm was like: We'll do this for you, like, we're excited. And so they were saving money, and then we saved money because we had attorneys doing it for us that we didn't have to pay for. But we got this kind of explanation letter from HR that was like: The value you received of getting this done is lik - it wasn't taxable, that I know of - but it was basically this depreciation schedule. Like: We gave you, like I think it was like $3000-something worth of services. And as the years go by and my wife works at that job, that gets reduced. So if she quit the next day, we would have to pay them that amount.

Manuel:
[41:34] Full amount. Only if you stay at the company year it was reduced.

Chris:
[41:36] If she stayed another year, it was reduced, and and she ended up staying long enough that it was completely reduced.

Manuel:
[41:38] I had a relocation allowance like that once where it was like: Yeah, yeah, we'll pay like €7,000 for your relocation, but if you quit on us the day after, you'll have to pay it back. If you quit six months after, you have to pay 25% back, a year after, 50%. And like, only if you stay for another two years, you get to fully keep that relocation allowance. Yeah. Smart! Smart! Companies are smart. Yeah.

Chris:
[42:04] Yeah. So that was really a nice experience for us. But yeah, all these appointments with the interview ... Like, I mean, we had just this binder filled with like photos of us. I mean, we had ... yeah, we had a kid already together, we had a house together, like we had ... I mean, there's no reason to be nervous, but you're still nervous in these situations.

Manuel:
[42:14] "Do you believe me? We're in love! We never fight! We promise!"

Chris:
[42:21] Yeah.

Stephanie:
[42:26] Yeah. We practiced for the interview. I don't know if you did. We watched YouTube videos and we're like: Sometimes it's okay if you answer a question wrong, because it just means that you're like, chill and relax. And it's like you didn't memorize your answers or ...

Chris:
[42:37] Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's my ...

Manuel:
[42:41] It's so degrading. I don't know.

Chris:
[42:46] Yeah, it is a totally different experience than the German side, for sure. And like, so yeah, we had everything translated ...

Manuel:
[42:47] But I just want to reiterate I think Germany does the same thing. They just do it when you marry, not when you get the visa.

Chris:
[42:55] Yeah. It's weird that we somehow skipped this. I feel like I skipped this process somehow. I skipped this ... check. Yeah.

Manuel:
[43:04] ... Loophole. No, I think it has something to do with like, you know, how the US is all about liberty and stuff, and like, the state can't interfere with the process of getting married. Like, there's ... The whole point of you go to Las Vegas and you marry, and like, it would be very un-American if someone is there asking you to prove your love. So America only does it once it gets real and you want to stay. Whereas in Germany: No. Like everything in order. Like before we even let you marry, you prove to us that you're in love. Unless you're German, then you can marry for any reason. But if you want to marry an immigrant or expat, prove your love first.

Stephanie:
[43:47] Yeah.

Chris:
[43:51]Yeah, makes sense. On the US side, I think everything else sounded pretty similar.

Stephanie:
[43:52] Okay.

Chris:
[43:58] But then the way that we moved to Germany was, we flew over first. Actually, the reason we came was my father-in-law had a bad diagnosis of cancer, so we were like on a flight right away, landed here, and we knew we were going to stay. We had talked about moving to Germany for a while, and this was just like the thing that made it happen right away. And so I was basically here just on the three months, but zero planning from stateside, as far as like looking at appointments or anything. So we landed here, got registered and knew I had to do this, you know, Ausländerbehörde appointment, so got that on the calendar. And that process was like the easiest like experience ever. We had ... I don't ... I don't even remember having much of a problem getting an appointment, but I live outside of Berlin. Technically I'm like on the border, so I had to go way far away to Werda, which is on the other side of Potsdam.

Manuel:
[44:58] Yeah. So it's Brandenburg.

Chris:
[45:03] Yeah. Brandenburg. So not that many foreigners there, so.

Manuel:
[45:06] And also never heard ... and just twiddling their thumbs! "Yeah.finally we have someone who ..."

Stephanie:
[45:06] Oh, yeah, "Come right in!"

Chris:
[45:09] Exactly. And yeah, I remember the ... You know, I was nervous, like thinking: Oh, I got to really be on my ... on top of my Deutsch game today, like, and my wife was there to help, of course, but yeah, we had a form that we had filled out, and had to fill out some more things - I don't know if we didn't have ... It's kind of a similar situation ... like maybe it was the wrong form - but we needed to fill something out. But the lady was just super nice. Like she just seemed like ... like her mood switched when we walked in, which I feel also could be like a very unfair treatment in this, 'cause like there were people ... there were other people waiting for appointments that might have been labeled immigrants. And then here comes an expat into the office and like, she just like, lit up and was so like, happy and easygoing, and it was like, "Fill out this form, but you can do it ..." like, I don't know ... "Take your time," like and then like €100, and mine was €100, maybe they've increased it in, in the meantime ...

Manuel:
[46:05] There's a discount for Brandenburg! Brandenburg discount!

Chris:
[46:07] Yeah. And yeah. So just, it just felt like the total opposite of the US experience. It was like: one form - we had our like binder full of translated documents that we didn't need whatsoever - and then €100, done! Yeah.

Stephanie:
[46:21] That's interesting. I think it's a good point to point out that we're both Americans and walked in, and like, I don't know, I had a university background. I don't know if you do as well, but I think ... I think maybe that definitely impacted my experience, for sure, and like ... Yeah.

Chris:
[46:42] I also didn't have to have ... I don't have a certificate for my German, so I don't know ...

Stephanie:
[46:49] Well, I've heard that if you can converse with the agent without a problem, then they will be okay with it.

Manuel:
[46:54] Right, because A1 is such a low bar that like having to prove that, is almost ...

Stephanie:
[47:00] And I was pretty fresh to my German learning when we moved here, so I was like: Sign me up for immersive, Goethe Institute Class, and let me take this test. Yeah.

Chris:
[47:00] That would be stressful. With, like, that kind of appointment as your goal, like: Uhh! This is my test! Yeah.

Stephanie:
[47:13] Yeah, right. And it was interesting too. My appointment was around March, and so that was pretty recent after the Ukraine war and such. And so they had just started kind of having systems in place, I think, for Ukrainian refugees. And so that was kind of interesting, to observe who else was in the the waiting room with me.

Manuel:
[47:38] That's right. Yeah. The process is definitely, definitely different if you come under different circumstances.

Stephanie:
[47:46] Right. For sure.