Show Notes
- Lulu Johnson: Dating in Berlin: Tales of Modern Love and Relationships
- Lulu on Instagram
- Esther Perel: Mating in Captivity: Reconciling the Erotic and the Domestic (Goodreads)
- Esther Perel: The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity (Goodreads)
Transcript
Lulu:
[0:09] Will you edit out any swearing that I do? Because I used to swear a lot!
Jae:
[0:13] No, you can swear all the time!
Manuel:
[0:14] You haven't heard this ...
Lulu:
[0:15] Okay, if you're going to do it, then I'm going to do it. But I was on a podcast ...
Jae:
[0:18] I was, earlier.
Lulu:
[0:19] Okay, fine, because I was on an Irish podcast recently and I kept swearing and I heard myself back, and I was like, Oh, no, it doesn't sound great!
Manuel:
[0:25] So that's a great introduction! With you today is Lulu, who is known for her swearing on Irish radio and podcasts. And today she's here on the ... For a second there, I forgot which podcast we're on!
Jae:
[0:41] On the Jae's podcast!
Manuel:
[0:42] Everyone's Moving to Berlin.
Lulu:
[0:43] Jae's live podcast!
Manuel:
[0:44] Where we talk about things that you should know if you're moving to Berlin or if you've just moved here. And Lulu ...
Jae:
[0:50] I'm a bit curious about moving to Berlin!
Manuel:
[0:52] Right, you can be curious! And Lulu sent us an email and she said, "I have a topic suggestion."
Lulu:
[1:00] It's Dating in Berlin.
Manuel:
[1:02] Dating.
Jae:
[1:03] Dating.
Lulu:
[1:04] Dating. It's all about the dating.
Manuel:
[1:05] Is it all about the dating?
Lulu:
[1:06] Yeah, that's been my life.
Jae:
[1:08] Can you date in Berlin?
Manuel:
[1:09] So what everybody says is that dating in Berlin is just all about nobody wants to commit. Is that, can we end the episode?
Lulu:
[1:20] Put those hands down immediately!
Manuel:
[1:21] Is that basically it?
Jae:
[1:22] I was thinking about like what my answer to dating in Berlin as a gay man would be, and I would say there's three possible options for dating in Berlin that I've seen. Either they don't want to be in a relationship, either I don't want to be in a relationship, or they're in an open relationship. There's nothing in-between.
Lulu:
[1:42] Yeah. There's a lot of situationships. That's the new thing now.
Jae:
[1:44] A lot of situationships.
Lulu:
[1:45] It's the one of: Oh, let's do this for three months until someone catches feelings, and then someone is too afraid to go any further, so they run away. It just happened to me.
Manuel:
[1:52] Literally, I feel so old. It's the first time I've heard this term, "situationship." Is that something you actually say to other people?
Lulu:
[2:00] No, it's a new thing as well. I've only started saying it the last six months, and people are saying, "Oh that's a funny word." And I'm like, "No, I've also heard it, I didn't make it up."
Manuel:
[2:06] "Let's be in a situationship."
Lulu:
[2:08] No, "It just has become a situationship." You know, I mean I don't know, my experiences, I was, you know, dating someone that was exclusive. And then when I said, "Well, seeing as we're exclusive and I like you, you like me, shall we be boyfriend and girlfriend?" And basically he was like, "No, I'm too afraid to commit because I don't want to feel any pain." So I was like, "Oh, then this is a fucking situationship. Oh, that's war."
Manuel:
[2:29] But isn't ... Wait, so, but, okay ... Okay. So basically, if you're just ...
Lulu:
[2:36] ... In a situation with no real title to it, and it's not really going anywhere.
Manuel:
[2:42] You're just seeing each other.
Lulu:
[2:44] Yeah, yeah.
Manuel:
[2:45] We used to say: "We're just seeing each other."
Lulu:
[2:46] "Back in my day!"
Jae:
[2:47] But like "seeing each other" always kind of like implies that you're seeing each other to, you know ...
Manuel:
[2:52] What about, "hooking up?" Is it not just ... ?
Jae:
[2:54] Yeah, it could be hooking up.
Manuel:
[2:55] But maybe there's more to it. Like you are actually in love, but you don't want to be in a relationship. "I'm not going to use the love word. That's a little bit ..."
Jae:
[3:00] Oh, but like for me, the way that I see situationship, it's like there's connection. It's like toeing the line between the friends with benefits type of thing, like that little area.
Lulu:
[3:15] Having feelings with a friend, with benefits.
Jae:
[3:18] Yeah. Yes, and like you guys both have a little bit of feelings but either both of you guys are not wanting guys really want to commit at this point. So you guys like what you guys do, but you also want to be able to do this with everybody else, too, but also not be able to be like tied down to one thing. And you see how we are complicated on explaining it? This is why it's called, "situationship," because no one knows how to explain exactly what it is.
Manuel:
[3:41] Is that a status on Facebook yet?
Jae:
[3:44] It's complicated.
Lulu:
[3:45] It should be. Yeah, yeah, it's complicated, exactly.
Manuel:
[3:49] So when did you come to Berlin?
Lulu:
[3:51] Eight years ago now.
Manuel:
[3:52] Eight years ago. Plenty of dating in that time?
Lulu:
[3:53] Mm hmm. Oh, so many dates. Honestly, someone asked me recently as well and I had to work it out, easily over 100, if not more dates. Like it used to be a hobby of mine. I did enjoy it.
Manuel:
[4:06] Did none of these people want to commit, or how often in these situationships have you been the one saying ... ?
Lulu:
[4:12] Well, the situation ... I was in a relationship when I first moved here, a very toxic one. And then I would just ... I don't know if they wanted to commit or not. Back then I was also figuring out what it is to date casually, because I'd come from a society where you date someone, you know, three times and then you're in a committed relationship, right? This was like the sweet way before 2012 when dating apps first came out. So back in the days when I was younger, when I first moved here, I was figuring out how just to date, how to just have sex with someone and then not see them again or something. I was like sweet little Catholic Irish girl coming here to this sex-stuffed city. It was like: Oh, this is a one night stand! He's not going to call me back. But yeah, easily over 150 dates, so many experiences, good and bad. I've made great friends from dating as well, but I did do it as a pastime. I did want to actually get to know people as well. It was a great way to get to know the city, to share stories.
Manuel:
[5:06] And seeing people's apartments, right? I'm not dating anymore, but when I was dating, that was like one of my favorite parts of it, like getting to see people's places.
Lulu:
[5:15] But no offense, most men's apartments in Berlin look the same. It's always the white IKEA furniture. There's just a mattress on the ground sometimes, that's it. Or you know, not the crates, but the typical wood crates, exactly. Yeah, very repetitive. I've seen a lot of apartments over these last eight years, you know!
Manuel:
[5:38] Wow!
Non-App Ways to Date
[5:39] So how does dating in Berlin work then? How did it used to work and how doest work now? Maybe let's spare the apps for later. Like what are the non-apps ways?Lulu:
[5:48] I only know app life. I'm an app girl.
Manuel:
[5:50] Really?
Lulu:
[5:51] Sadly so. Yeah. I mean, okay, last summer I met a guy in the club. That was it.
Manuel:
[5:55] How did that work?
Lulu:
[5:56] I smiled at him and he smiled at me, and boom, I was in love.
Manuel:
[5:59] Wow, so romantic and traditional!
Lulu:
[6:01] That was my situationship, yeah. I fell deeply in love on the dance floor. First time ever, I don't usually fall in love, and yeah, boom! He broke my heart three months later.
Manuel:
[6:10] Oh, my God!
Jae:
[6:11] Dating starts for me, primarily in the clubs. I don't use dating apps that much. If anything, we have Grindr, the hookup app. But primarily it's always been ... because I prefer the face-to-face type of ...
Lulu:
[6:25] But you're American as well - sorry to interrupt - but you guys are great to just approach people in person like that.
Jae:
[6:29] Oh one hundred percent, hundred percent.
Lulu:
[6:30] Amazing.
Jae:
[6:31] Yes, and I love it, I love it. I'll either look at someone, they look at me, and it's just ...
Lulu:
[6:36] Is that also in the gay community, to be so forward as well?
Jae:
[6:40] Yes, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. That's why our experience might be a little bit different.
Lulu:
[6:43] Yeah, I think we definitely have different experiences, but maybe I can learn from you, you know?
Jae:
[6:46] Oh, I can ... yes, because I mean like, especially when it comes to like the gays, we're a lot more forward, a lot more like ... I mean it's men, going towards men. So it's a lot more hormones going on and just becomes like …
Lulu:
[7:03] The intentions are clear, most of the time.
Jae:
[7:06] The intentions are clear. And most times I would say that the expectations could be more: Hit one time, leave, or whatnot. But then sometimes there's a friendship that comes to it as well, too. But never more than that, I would say, at least in that sense. Maybe in the dating apps, yes. Actually, I think it is more, like at least in the gay world, if you want that type of connection, your best bet would be like not the club, would be like a Tinder or like a Hinge or whatnot.
Manuel:
[7:38] Before we go into the "abs", I just want to say ... Apps, apps, not "abs"! Germans have a thing where they sometimes pronounce p's as a b and then ...
Lulu:
[7:47] Oh! A-p-p-s, Apps. "I'm only in for the abs! I'm here for the abs!"
Manuel:
[7:54] I think like especially for newcomers, like meetups are a huge dating ground, I think. No?
Lulu:
[8:02] Yeah, I've been cold messaged on meetup apps sometimes ...
Manuel:
[8:07] No, no, no, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about like you go to a meetup, like there's all these like, New in Town ...
Lulu:
[8:12] Oh, oh, like ... Yes, like from the app, the Meetup app that you go to meet people in real life.
Manuel:
[8:16] When I went to these kinds of meetups when I was new in Berlin, I would go to meetups to meet friends. And that wasn't an app. Like that was just like meetup.com.
Lulu:
[8:24] It's become an app.
Manuel:
[8:26] Okay, everything is an app.
Lulu:
[8:28] Yeah.
Manuel:
[8:29] OK. But so that's part of app dating. When I think of apps, I'm thinking of Tinder, swiping left and right, Bumble. It's all the same.
Jae:
[8:37] Someone cold messaged you on Meetup?
Lulu:
[8:39] Yeah. And I was like, "Why?" And he was like, "What's the difference in me messaging you here or on Tinder?" And I'm like, "Because I'm not here to be creeped on, I'm sorry."
Dating Apps
[8:46] It was just ... it just wasn't cool, it wasn't romantic. It was just weird, because it had come to that point that I'd been in Berlin for so long, had been dealing with ... or had been online for so long as well, I had been approached by dudes being creeps, that if you're going to approach me as well on a meetup app, I'm going to think it's creepy. I see nothing romantic in it. Yeah. But I wish there was something romantic.Manuel:
[9:09] It's just like asking someone on a date on LinkedIn: "I see you're looking for a job. How about a date instead?"
Lulu:
[9:12] I've never been approached on LinkedIn, but yeah, at this point I'd say I'm open to anything!
Manuel:
[9:17] Maybe they'll have a badge like: "Open for literally anything!" Okay. So then, okay, the apps. So there's the gay community apps, Grindr, Hinge, correct?
Jae:
[9:29] Yeah.
Manuel:
[9:31] And the other ones are open I think to anyone as well, but those are like specific, like ...
Jae:
[9:37] Grindr is a specific gay one. Hinge is open to everybody. Grindr, yeah, that's like the only ...
Manuel:
[9:42] The ones that I know about are Tinder, obviously, Bumble, which is like Tinder but less creepy.
Lulu:
[9:49] Where women must message first with the match.
Manuel:
[9:51] Ah, that's right. Yes. Which is a good idea, bad idea?
Jae:
[9:53] Yeah, it's fine.
Lulu:
[9:54] Yeah, it's fine. I mean, they're all terrible, honestly. At this point, we're all sick of it. Because there's this new phenomenon that's happening now, and it's called the Pear Ring. Have you heard about this? Pear Ring, two words. P-E-A-R, like the fruit, Ring, right? You sign up this one-time membership and they send you a ring. It's a green ring. I don't have it, I'm waiting for mine to be delivered. And then you will wear this ring and it is an indication for other people who know about this experiment, to approach you or to show that you are available, because you're sick of the apps, essentially. This experiment - I forget now how they called it ... "the biggest social experiment" - they want people to get off the apps and to approach people in person. And I lost my shit the second I saw it. It was like midnight, I was going to bed and I was one more swipe on Instagram or like on the stories, and I saw it, and within seconds I'd signed up for it.
Manuel:
[10:51] I have a question.
Jae:
[10:52] And in theory that actually sounds like not a bad idea.
Manuel:
[10:56] It's essentially the opposite of a wedding ring. Like a wedding ring is like, "Don't approach me!" And the green one ... The problem that I have is I'm red-green color blind. How bright is this?
Jae:
[11:04] I'm red-green color blind too.
Lulu:
[11:07] Men are color blind! That's very ...
Manuel:
[11:08] How bright is this green ring? And how big is it? Because I feel like I don't even see what people have on their fingers.
Lulu:
[11:12] It's quite thick actually. It's looks like a plastic one. It's quite thick. How green is it? Well, it's kind of like, you see there, your turquoise green on this monitor here, or the one by the red. It's actually like that, that one next to ... in your computer.
Manuel:
[11:28] Quite bright.
Lulu:
[11:29] Yeah. But I don't think it glows. Maybe if you glow in the dark, that should be awesome.
Manuel:
[11:31] That would be cool. It like glows if you are available tonight.
Lulu:
[11:35] Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's should be a [inaudible] on it.
Manuel:
[11:36] Like a taxi.
Lulu:
[11:37] Yeah. But I think that's a great idea. I'm all for that because I do believe people are fed up of the dates but you don't want to get onto the apps ...
Manuel:
[11:45] So then the idea is that you see someone in the street that has this ring, and you also have the ring, and then you kind of flash it like a green sign, and you're like, "Hello-oo!"
Lulu:
[11:51] Yeah, "Shall we be paired? Let's be pair buddies." And yeah, it basically indicates that people are available, they are single, and that they want to be approached in person. Not like all the time. It's not suddenly like, "Ooh, I'm wearing the ring, everyone approach me now!" I'm sure that's not what they mean. It's not my company but I'm definitely plugging it because I think it's amazing. Yeah, but it's just for people to know that you are single, basically.
Jae:
[12:15] And I could also imagine that that could help with the amount of like unnecessary catcalling, and like being approached by the wrong people and stuff like that.
Lulu:
[12:23] Definitely.
Jae:
[12:24] That also happens too. You know, you have this type of ring, someone else has a ring, you all know each other's intentions as well too. So because one thing with the apps too, like not even just Grindr, but all the apps, is everyone says they're looking for a relationship, but ...
Lulu:
[12:39] But I think that's the way to get us into bed at this stage. I don't believe any man when he's sweet-talking.
Jae:
[12:43] You know, exactly.
Lulu:
[12:44] It's so sad.
Jae:
[12:53] Hopefully. It's a social experiment.
Lulu:
[12:54] Yeah, it's an experiment, so let's see. But I mean, maybe people didn't believe ten years ago that the apps would be a thing. And, you know, maybe this is the start of something new because it's time for change. The amount of people that, you know, get matches will get ghosted, and just ... we're just disposing of each other. It's a disposable dating culture.
Manuel:
[13:10] It's consumerism, right? It's like ...
Lulu:
[13:12] Yes. It's been designed like online shopping. Just ...
[12:44] It's so sad.
Jae:
[12:46] And it's so easy just to do that, so this way, kind of thing, can like filter out a lot of the bullshit.
[12:46] And it's so easy just to do that, so this way, kind of thing, can like filter out a lot of the bullshit.
Jae:
[12:53] Hopefully. It's a social experiment.
Lulu:
[12:54] Yeah, it's an experiment, so let's see. But I mean, maybe people didn't believe ten years ago that the apps would be a thing. And, you know, maybe this is the start of something new because it's time for change. The amount of people that, you know, get matches will get ghosted, and just ... we're just disposing of each other. It's a disposable dating culture.
Manuel:
[13:10] It's consumerism, right? It's like ...
Lulu:
[13:12] Yes. It's been designed like online shopping. Just ...
How Did the Dating Journey Begin?
Jae:[13:14] So I have a question for you. When you came to Berlin, was it an intention of yours to date here? Or was that something that just kind of like happened? Or like ... ?
Lulu:
[13:23] Babes, I had no choice. I wanted a relationship. Like I was ... Yeah, I had come from Ireland. I had come from the simple life of having relationships and it being a sweet and simple life. But I did find myself in a toxic relationship six months after moving here, and I discuss that in my book. So I did find a relationship, but it was a very unhealthy one. And I do say, I mean, it's easy to find an unhealthy relationship in this city. It's not so easy to find a healthy one.
Jae:
[13:48] Yeah, well, because to be ... like, I would never see Berlin as like a city of love. You know, like Berlin, I came to have a good time. Not a long time, you know, and I think definitely that is the culture that is like manifested here. You know, there's a very techno big culture, party culture is really big, it's a rough city, you know, crappy weather all the time, and the best people I've always seen are tourists. You know, like when you have like a match with somebody, they don't live here.
Lulu:
[14:18] Yeah, that happens a lot in life!
Jae:
[14:20] So it's like Berlin for me, like I've experienced ... like just from my experience, has not necessarily manifested as like a place to find like love. So whenever I decide to come here, I kind of try to intentionally throw that out the window. I have like a ... like my mindset has been: I'm not looking for it, I don't mind it if it knocks on my door, but also I'm not looking for it, nor can I expect it. But of course, obviously that's still ... there's some like gray lines and stuff like that.
Lulu:
[14:50] So Berlin is Europe's singles capital.
Jae:
[14:52] Mm hmm.
Lulu:
[14:53] So, for sure ...
Manuel:
[14:55] But is it really? Like, are there any numbers? Because sometimes I feel like, is it just all the singles telling themselves that it ... ? Because there are many people who are in long term relationships.
Lulu:
[15:06] There are also.
Manuel:
[15:07] But they just don't talk about this, right? They're not like: Oh, Berlin, no one's committed! Because they're committed. And so it's just everybody who's not committed who's having ...
Lulu:
[15:15] Yeah, I mean, who's in the circle of dating is talking about it because it's a pain in the ass. You know what I mean? Those who are happy in their committed relationships - hashtag jealous! - they don't need to talk about it because it doesn't affect their lives. But like the majority of my friends are single. Lots of them have committed healthy relationships as well. But so many people in other cities where my friends live, they're all single as well. Our generation is very much single these days.
Jae:
[15:38] It's a very single generation.
Lulu:
[15:40] Yeah.
Jae:
[15:41] We're a very independent type of ...
Manuel:
[15:43] Yeah. ... and is it ...
Jae:
[15:44] Having a good time.
Lulu:
[15:45] Which is great too. It has its advantages. Like women don't necessarily need babies, want babies anymore. We can have our careers. I don't need a man, I want one, that's all. You know, I mean, like I'm also very happy being single. I live a very simple, easy, single life. No dramas, no boy drama, nothing. Just me and my cat. And ...
Jae:
[16:04] But you would like ... you would still want somebody to, you know, like, check in on you just in the middle of the day.
Lulu:
[16:10] Yeah, a hundred percent. "I want to find my person," I hated saying so much.
Jae:
[16:15] Yeah. "I want to find my soulmate."
Lulu:
[16:16] "Person."
Manuel:
[16:18] Is it, is it ... ? Like, I do agree, I think, that basically our generation is ... what's amazing is that we have all these options now that our parents and especially grandparents didn't have, and we really want to keep those options open. And then if you're in a place like Berlin where there's option overload, right? There's so many clubs, there's, I don't know, even just like, which app do you want to order your groceries on? There's like so many options.
Lulu:
[16:47] The paradox of choice, right? There's just so much you don't know what to do about it.
Manuel:
[16:50] And then with people, not only are there so many people, it's also a constant influx of new people. I think if you're in a small town in Germany, you can use Tinder for a month and then you're done. If that, right? You've swiped to the end and then that's it. And in Berlin, it's just like so many people coming every month that you can never stop, and you can keep looking for the perfect option until you die.
Jae:
[17:14] And I'm guilty of that too, you know? Because this is my thing, all right? I never really believe a person, because I know myself, never believe a person who says, "I'm just not looking." Because I don't believe that's actually true. I think if we all found our right person, we would all want to settle or like want to put into emotions. But a lot of times for me, I might say, "I'm not looking" or whatnot, simply because I do know that what if there's something better coming out there? What if there's something ... And then you do. You see somebody else that like gets you like heightened up and stuff like that. Then you see somebody else, you see somebody else. And it does become this whole thing of like this kind of like a drug in a way, and you have this, like this excitement. And sometimes that feels better than like settling for one person and then like accepting that that be like ...
Manuel:
[18:06] It's a very different thing fundamentally. It's like, I don't know, it's like parachuting versus meditating, or something. It's like both are great, but one's a thrilling adventure and the other one is like something that you fundamentally do.
Lulu:
[18:22] Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say something now about it. I've lost my train of thought.
Manuel:
[18:26] Let me see your book.
Anecdotes from Lulu's Book
[18:28] So you wrote a book called, Dating in Berlin, Tales of Modern Love and Relationships. It has over 200 pages. So these are all your best stories?Lulu:
[18:42] Yeah. These are all my stories. All of my wild stories, yeah.
Jae:
[18:45] From eight years.
Lulu:
[18:46] Yes, there's a whole book about them. And as you can see, it's like satirical fairy tale, because love ain't no fairytale in Berlin. And as you see the cover, and so I have my characters, like real men that I've dated, I've given them all obviously fake names.
Manuel:
[18:59] Did you get good insurance against ... ?
Lulu:
[19:01] Oh, don't worry, everything has been changed. You can't recognize anyone. But like the caricatures of them, you know, I've given them all titles like, Prince Charm Your Pants Off, The Vegan Butcher, The Prince of Sakes.
Jae:
[19:14] I love this ...
Manuel:
[19:15] Tell us one of these anecdotes. Tell us one of the good ones.
Lulu:
[19:19] Well, I suppose I'll have to tell you about the murder story.
Jae:
[19:21] Ooh la la!
Lulu:
[19:23] Well, I'll give you an overview because the rest is in my book.
Manuel:
[19:26] Okay. Sneak peek.
Lulu:
[19:27] It's available online and on Amazon and my website. Yeah, basically, I went on a date in 2018 with an American man.
Jae:
[19:34] Sorry!
Lulu:
[19:36] You're cute, I like you! But not him! So, basically, met him, he had a very bad boy image about him. We went, sat in a pub, got to know each other. Something inside me felt like I had to ask him, had he ever been to jail? And he said, yes. And I was, I'm not surprised. He just looked really grimy. Now on his profile - I'll show you the photos after - everyone says he's very attractive, but when you meet him you just get the whole aura from him. And anyway, I asked him, had he been to prison? He said, yes, he'd spent 17 years of his life in total in prison.
Manuel:
[20:09] 17 years. Wow!
Lulu:
[20:11] 17, and he was currently out on good behaviour for a manslaughter charge here in Berlin. When I asked him what he did, he looked at me proudly and he said, "I chopped a man's head off." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm not going to not believe you." Just these vibes are just throwing like bad boys at me, you know? And so the day kind of continued for a bit, and I went home and I googled him, keyword search, and found his face on two newspaper articles here in Berlin.
[19:36] You're cute, I like you! But not him! So, basically, met him, he had a very bad boy image about him. We went, sat in a pub, got to know each other. Something inside me felt like I had to ask him, had he ever been to jail? And he said, yes. And I was, I'm not surprised. He just looked really grimy. Now on his profile - I'll show you the photos after - everyone says he's very attractive, but when you meet him you just get the whole aura from him. And anyway, I asked him, had he been to prison? He said, yes, he'd spent 17 years of his life in total in prison.
Manuel:
[20:09] 17 years. Wow!
Lulu:
[20:11] 17, and he was currently out on good behaviour for a manslaughter charge here in Berlin. When I asked him what he did, he looked at me proudly and he said, "I chopped a man's head off." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm not going to not believe you." Just these vibes are just throwing like bad boys at me, you know? And so the day kind of continued for a bit, and I went home and I googled him, keyword search, and found his face on two newspaper articles here in Berlin.
Jae:
[20:37] He's just out here on good behavior!
Lulu:
[20:39] Yeah. He's a great little prisoner inside there in that men's prison, and yeah, he's out dating on weekends and stuff like that. Honestly, it's so ... Me of all people got tied up with him. But it was really funny because during the date, I'd actually said to him ... At one point after he told me what he did, I started laughing, but in a very kind of uncomfortable way, kind of, "Ha ha ha.". He was like, "What's so funny? And I said, "Well, I'm laughing because my friends always say that I need to stop going ... I need to stop dating guys that look like they could kill me. And here I am sitting next to you." I honestly said that to him. The look he gave me was very unnerving. It was just like, it was just really he didn't like what I had to say. So I think I pretty much wrapped it up after that, but we both walked down to the same train station together at Kottbusser Tor, and it was just ...
Jae:
[21:25] Oh, of course, Kotti.
Lulu:
[20:26] Yeah, right.
Manuel:
[21:27] There's a police station there now, so don't worry.
Jae:
[21:29] Don't be scared.
Lulu:
[21:31] But yeah, the rest of the story is in the book, and it's insane. Like you ...
Jae:
[21:35] The crazy thing about Berlin is you can have, I think, the most bizarre stories, just because of the people that Berlin attracts.
Lulu:
[21:47] Exactly. You don't know who anyone is.
Jae:
[21:50] Yeah. That is so interesting.
Lessons Learned
[21:52] What would you say, based on all your stories or your experiences, is one of the biggest things you've learned from your dating life?Lulu:
[22:02] Well, certainly from that story, I would say, judge a book by its cover, hundred percent, because you kind of need to sometimes - okay, yeah, online we're anyway judging people by how they look, but, you know - listen to your gut. Like there was a reason why I asked the guy, had he ever been to prison. I'd never asked anyone that before. Why would that ever come into my head? So, you know, that's the lesson I have learned is I'm listening to my gut more, my intuition. If someone looks dodgy, they probably are, you know, that's kind of what I have to go by with that. But what else? I have like my little list of dating advice actually.
Open Relationships
Manuel:[22:35] What about, you mentioned open relationships? I think Berlin is kind of famous for alternative relationship models. Any experience?
Jae:
[22:45] I can talk about that. Yeah.
Manuel:
[22:47] Okay, tell us. How did it go?
Jae:
[22:48] How does it go? How is it going? You've met the guy.
Manuel:
[22:55] I met the guy?
Jae:
[22:56] You've met the guy. Open dating in Berlin is something that like especially in the gay queer community, is like the only thing that exists if people are dating. I've only talked to one friend who's in a monogamous relationship, out of all the gay people, and most of the people I know are gay. So out of all the gay people I've talked to, only one of the couples is actually in a monogamous relationship. It just seems that, I think, open relationship models are becoming more and more apparent. And honestly, I kind of see where it comes from, obviously.
[23:39] What I've seen from a lot of these people who are dating openly in Berlin, Berlin is a very sex-positive place. So people don't want to give that part of themselves up, which understandably I respect. And then the other aspect of things that I've been explaining, is that a relationship isn't determined by the sex that we have with each other versus with other people. I think there's more to relationships than just that exclusive sex part of things.
[24:09] So this whole idea of open dating has really opened up my mindset when it comes to dating and what I believe. Like I've never dated but I always thought or assumed that I would be more in a monogamous relationship. But hearing all the experiences that people have told me and from what they've seen and these people are in long-term relationships, like years and years and years, and because, you know, I would say that most relationships always end because of some infidelity.
Lulu:
[24:33] Yeah.
Jae:
[24:34] Some sort of cheating. So if you get rid of that, you open up the possibility of a lot more trust. And it's even allowed me to question my alternative dating models. Like I personally probably believe that I'll probably be more on the polyamorous side, dating multiple people all at once. Because I think when you offer yourself these alternatives, you also offer yourself a space to learn to feel comfortable trying something different, and being different, and exploring something different. And that's something very interesting, you know, that I've learned to respect. I think I've always looked at open relationships like okay ... But then you actually hear about it from people here in Berlin, and I'm like: Oh, like they're actually, you're making it work, and they're happy, you know?
Lulu:
[25:20] I love the idea of it. It's all about communicating. Cause I know a few people who are in open relationships and it's just about talking about it. And you know, it's just because it's open doesn't mean it's going to be open forever. You close it when you don't ... you know, when you might feel a bit insecure about yourself and your relationships. Talking about an example of a friend, she has an open relationship, and when one of them or the two of them are feeling insecure about something, they close it for a while and then, you know, when they're feeling confident about it again, they open it. It's not that they go off shagging people every weekend. It's just that if you're out, you might fancy someone. And then they're going to like text like: Hey, can I shag someone? And it's like: Yeah, sure. I think it's a great idea. I want to maybe get to that point in life, because I think that's the future, honestly, especially with all of this choice around us. I don't want to say that we have no choice but to be in open relationships, but we have to start thinking that way now. You know, like gone are the days where you're going to be married for 45 years with one person.
Jae:
[26:08] Yeah.
Lulu:
[26:09] I don't want that to happen.
Manuel:
[26:10] But if you do want that, maybe a model like this could actually make that more realistic.
Lulu:
[26:15] Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jae:
[26:17] Yeah, and then also let's say, like so I'm currently dating someone who is in an open relationship, and that comes with its pros and cons. But one of the models, one reason why they're in an open relationship, is because one of them is not here in Berlin, the other one is, you know. So this person, under temptation, under their own freedom or whatnot, doesn't want to feel so repressed. Dating somebody who is in an open relationship, now that's a bit tricky because that's when, I would say, the situation gets kind of hard. Because like, you know, things always start off with: Okay, you're in an open relationship, I respect that. But if you're like dating somebody and you're seeing them consistently, feelings start to evolve, and then trying to navigate that can be quite tricky as well, especially in this type of city.
[27:08] Yeah, open relationship is good, but I think you definitely have to tread it with caution and definitely give yourself some time to be self-reflective. I have never been so more self-reflective than in my time here in Berlin, because you're presented with so many different types of alternatives that you've never really experienced anywhere else. A relationship, all these type of things, I would say in a state like Texas would be, not frowned upon, but very, very, very, very, very, very minority, you know, people will be like: Okay ... But in a city where it's somewhat encouraged, you're kind of really forced to change your ... like challenge your own mindsets and your own beliefs about it and stuff.
Lulu:
[27:49] Which is a good thing about Berlin. It really does make you self-reflect. It does challenge you. You grow up very quickly here as well, you know, I'm so much more openminded than I would have been if I was living in my little city of 120,000 people, you know.
[28:01] What else do you have in terms of advice? You have a whole list.
Lulu:
[28:04] Yeah, I've got a little list. Well, like my number one dating advice would be just to be kind to people. And that comes down to the ghosting, it comes down to just: Be honest with someone if you know what you want. Like if you know you just want to hook up, tell the person from the start instead of dragging it out. Like I know feelings can change when you're dating someone and things like that, but at the end of the day, communicate. And my experience is that I think men have a hard time being totally honest because they're afraid of hurting our feelings, like women's feelings, I'm talking about.
Manuel:
[28:34] You think that's the main reason?
Lulu:
[28:36] I do. Yeah. From my personal experiences, I have had lads that I'd have dated for a while and then they just can't actually be perfectly honest because they also, in my opinion, don't want to feel uncomfortable. Yeah.
Manuel:
[28:50] And that's the main thing. Nobody wants to, I don't know ...
Lulu:
[28:53] I mean, no one likes to feel uncomfortable, but if you have to do it out of, you know, respect for the other person, it just has to be done. It's always going to hurt, like, you know, the second you pull off the Band-Aid, but you've got to just like ...
Jae:
[29:04] Because you end up doing worse by the whole ghosting and by ...
Lulu:
[29:07] And that's damaging to the other person as well. And like, I have no more faith in dating, I'll be totally honest with you.
Manuel:
[29:13] And sometimes breaking up with someone or being very honest about your feelings is the kindest thing to do, even if it feels very unkind in the moment.
Jae:
[29:22] I want to question your last point, that you said you lost the faith in dating. Was there a particular experience that was like: I'm done with it? And then what would it take for you to get that faith back?
Lulu:
[29:35] God! Therapy?! No, I've had plenty of that.
Manuel:
[30:21] So ghosting is like the main thing, or ... ?
Lulu:
[30:24] Yeah, ghosting as well. Yeah. The love bombing and the ghosting.
Manuel:
[30:26] What's love bombing?
Lulu:
[30:27] Oh, babes, you're out of the loop!
Jae:
[31:15] It is really. Yeah, I've experienced that as well.
Lulu:
[31:18] But that's hard for me now because I really don't believe a guy anymore when he says: I really like you, and all this.
Jae:
[31:23] I was thinking about this today, like earlier. I was like ... Because I recently experienced that with another person and the whole time you're telling me that type of shit, I'm like ... And I was crazy. I was literally thinking about this this morning. I was like: I just will never believe a guy whenever they tell me that type of stuff.
Lulu:
[31:39] You and me both, babe!
Jae:
[31:40] Yeah, we're in this together. And it's like, you can't. Because especially like, "Oh, I love you," like those things definitely do take time and stuff. And of course, I mean, I think people feel something, but to those extents, I think a lot of people do fantasize these like magnificent relationships that you see on TV or whatnot. So when you get - and I'm also talking from the guy, both perspectives, because I've been in both places - when you get the opportunity, you just want to feel that thing, no matter if you're genuine about it or if it's very temporary or whatnot. So then also, once that wears off, you're left ... in both places, you're left high and dry over: Oh shit, what did I just do or what just happened to me? And that can leave... especially if you're the person on the receiving side of the love bombing, can make you feel like: What did I do? This person just showed me all this love, all this type of stuff, only to now leave me high and dry, a lot of times without ever explaining why they just left you high and dry.
Lulu:
[32:48] Because sometimes they might not even know why they've done it either, like they're just ...
Jae:
[32:51] Exactly. Exactly. So you're just left in this confusing thing. And the worst, you know, the worst time this ever happens is whenever you are on your healing journey and you've made it right almost to the finish line, almost to the finish line where you have finally felt like you have found yourself. That's where they always come, they always come right ...
Lulu:
[33:10] You're so right. Yeah, that has happened to me as well because just recently in the last month I had a guy, met him on Bumble - downloaded Bumble again, I was like: One more shot, lads, one more shot! - met a lad 36 years old and I thought: Okay, a fair age. And he said online that he was in for a relationship. So we met. Like from the get-go, I knew that he was love bombing me. I was aware. But I was like, okay, meeting up with him, it was fine, I enjoyed the time with him. And it was only in our second or third date that I was like: Oh, actually, I do think I like him, maybe I will give him a shot. And that's when he fucking ghosted me, having love bombed me. And I was like ... I cried only because of the situation, not him, but because I was like: Really? Again? And a 36 year old? And he couldn't just communicate it. And so I had to go text him and being like: I guess we're not meeting again, are we? And he was like: Hey lady. He was like: No, I'm just not ready. And I was like: No problem at all. Why didn't you just tell me? His answer was, and this was on a Saturday, he said: I didn't have time. I was like: You're a piece of shit! Like, how dare you? You're such a prick. You know, I got upset over that. I was like: I am just being disposed of once again, like we are older. I cried for society!
Jae:
[34:21] I mean, I've been there with you, you know, and this shit hurts, you know, like when you do give your heart out there and you're trying to learn, and it feels like every time you fall down, you get back up, you only fall harder the next time, and stuff like that, and it's very frustrating, it can get very, very frustrating.
Lulu:
[34:37] Yeah. And that's why I have no more faith in dating. I really don't, because I'm 34 now. You know what I mean?
Jae:
[34:42] Well, I've always heard that it always happens whenever you least expect it to.
Lulu:
[34:46] I mean I've been off looking for love for months after I got my heart broken last summer. I didn't go near a man for over six months and I was done and I was happy and everything was great. And like I'm back on the bloody dating circuit again, you know? It's like that person should have come in those six months when I wasn't expecting anything, you know?
Jae:
[35:02] Yeah. how about for you, a person who's actually in a relationship, how is dating in Berlin like as a couple? ... Not like this!
Manuel:
[35:12] Our relationship is not open.
Jae:
[35:14] Obviously. But like how do you keep the fire going?
Manuel:
[35:19] Oh like, see, this is such an American concept to like: We're in a relationship so we're going on dates and stuff. Which is actually ... we should do more of because I think, yeah, date night, like it's a super ... Not that we don't have that in Germany, but we don't really articulate it. Like we don't put Date Night on the calendar necessarily, but we should. Speaking of good books, I wanted to mention - obviously your book we'll put in the show notes - but also two books about relationships and love that have really changed my mind on so many things, are the Esther Perel books.
Lulu:
[35:56] Oh, I love her so much.
Manuel:
[35:57] Mating in Captivity. And the other one is about …
Lulu:
[36:00] Attached?
Lulu:
[43:12] That's really interesting, because I actually saw a photo of myself when I was five years old the other day and I thought to myself: What would I say to me now if I met me at five? So what would I say to myself eight years ago? I would tell myself: Lulu, chill the fuck out and just enjoy Berlin for what it is, enjoy your life for what it is. Don't be putting pressure on dates. Don't be putting pressure on yourself to find someone. Life's full of adventures. The city is so adventurous. I have made incredible friends from online dating. I even had a guy come and install my kitchen for free one time, it was amazing. He wouldn't take any payment. I was like, "No, I insist." He was like, "No, no, it's fine." I was like, "All right, whatever." So just to enjoy yourself. It's grand. Like don't be putting societal expectations on you to get the man, the mortgage, and the baby. Because in the end I actually only want one of those three things. I don't want a baby and I don't want a mortgage, you know? But like enjoy the ride, it's fine, just have a laugh. And focus on your German.
Jae:
[44:10] That is very, very important. That's something I've tried to say to myself too. I consider myself one of those hopeless romantics. And the one thing I always tell myself now is like: Let go, relax, you know? A lot of times I think we put so much emphasis on this that you lose the joy of everything else around you. Because you're so pigeonholed in this one thing that now this one thing fucks up your entire experience here, when it's such a small little thing compared to everything else that you have.
Lulu:
[44:37] But if you think about it in life in general, it's a big thing to find The One. It's a big thing. Like romantic love is a huge part of our lives. We're made to feel that. As children, we watch fairy tales. When you grow up, you watch the chick flicks. Everything does revolve around finding love. But I have so much love for my friends, for my family, for my cat, you know, like it's not always about finding one person to keep you happy for, you know, the rest of your life or for however long. So just enjoy the ride. Life is so short anyway, you know, you don't know when the lights are going to go out, so just keep smiling, keep drinking your beers, and just enjoy yourself, you know.
[24:34] Some sort of cheating. So if you get rid of that, you open up the possibility of a lot more trust. And it's even allowed me to question my alternative dating models. Like I personally probably believe that I'll probably be more on the polyamorous side, dating multiple people all at once. Because I think when you offer yourself these alternatives, you also offer yourself a space to learn to feel comfortable trying something different, and being different, and exploring something different. And that's something very interesting, you know, that I've learned to respect. I think I've always looked at open relationships like okay ... But then you actually hear about it from people here in Berlin, and I'm like: Oh, like they're actually, you're making it work, and they're happy, you know?
Lulu:
[25:20] I love the idea of it. It's all about communicating. Cause I know a few people who are in open relationships and it's just about talking about it. And you know, it's just because it's open doesn't mean it's going to be open forever. You close it when you don't ... you know, when you might feel a bit insecure about yourself and your relationships. Talking about an example of a friend, she has an open relationship, and when one of them or the two of them are feeling insecure about something, they close it for a while and then, you know, when they're feeling confident about it again, they open it. It's not that they go off shagging people every weekend. It's just that if you're out, you might fancy someone. And then they're going to like text like: Hey, can I shag someone? And it's like: Yeah, sure. I think it's a great idea. I want to maybe get to that point in life, because I think that's the future, honestly, especially with all of this choice around us. I don't want to say that we have no choice but to be in open relationships, but we have to start thinking that way now. You know, like gone are the days where you're going to be married for 45 years with one person.
Jae:
[26:08] Yeah.
Lulu:
[26:09] I don't want that to happen.
Manuel:
[26:10] But if you do want that, maybe a model like this could actually make that more realistic.
Lulu:
[26:15] Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jae:
[26:17] Yeah, and then also let's say, like so I'm currently dating someone who is in an open relationship, and that comes with its pros and cons. But one of the models, one reason why they're in an open relationship, is because one of them is not here in Berlin, the other one is, you know. So this person, under temptation, under their own freedom or whatnot, doesn't want to feel so repressed. Dating somebody who is in an open relationship, now that's a bit tricky because that's when, I would say, the situation gets kind of hard. Because like, you know, things always start off with: Okay, you're in an open relationship, I respect that. But if you're like dating somebody and you're seeing them consistently, feelings start to evolve, and then trying to navigate that can be quite tricky as well, especially in this type of city.
[27:08] Yeah, open relationship is good, but I think you definitely have to tread it with caution and definitely give yourself some time to be self-reflective. I have never been so more self-reflective than in my time here in Berlin, because you're presented with so many different types of alternatives that you've never really experienced anywhere else. A relationship, all these type of things, I would say in a state like Texas would be, not frowned upon, but very, very, very, very, very, very minority, you know, people will be like: Okay ... But in a city where it's somewhat encouraged, you're kind of really forced to change your ... like challenge your own mindsets and your own beliefs about it and stuff.
Lulu:
[27:49] Which is a good thing about Berlin. It really does make you self-reflect. It does challenge you. You grow up very quickly here as well, you know, I'm so much more openminded than I would have been if I was living in my little city of 120,000 people, you know.
More Advice
Manuel:[28:01] What else do you have in terms of advice? You have a whole list.
Lulu:
[28:04] Yeah, I've got a little list. Well, like my number one dating advice would be just to be kind to people. And that comes down to the ghosting, it comes down to just: Be honest with someone if you know what you want. Like if you know you just want to hook up, tell the person from the start instead of dragging it out. Like I know feelings can change when you're dating someone and things like that, but at the end of the day, communicate. And my experience is that I think men have a hard time being totally honest because they're afraid of hurting our feelings, like women's feelings, I'm talking about.
Manuel:
[28:34] You think that's the main reason?
Lulu:
[28:36] I do. Yeah. From my personal experiences, I have had lads that I'd have dated for a while and then they just can't actually be perfectly honest because they also, in my opinion, don't want to feel uncomfortable. Yeah.
Manuel:
[28:50] And that's the main thing. Nobody wants to, I don't know ...
Lulu:
[28:53] I mean, no one likes to feel uncomfortable, but if you have to do it out of, you know, respect for the other person, it just has to be done. It's always going to hurt, like, you know, the second you pull off the Band-Aid, but you've got to just like ...
Jae:
[29:04] Because you end up doing worse by the whole ghosting and by ...
Lulu:
[29:07] And that's damaging to the other person as well. And like, I have no more faith in dating, I'll be totally honest with you.
Manuel:
[29:13] And sometimes breaking up with someone or being very honest about your feelings is the kindest thing to do, even if it feels very unkind in the moment.
Jae:
[29:22] I want to question your last point, that you said you lost the faith in dating. Was there a particular experience that was like: I'm done with it? And then what would it take for you to get that faith back?
Lulu:
[29:35] God! Therapy?! No, I've had plenty of that.
Manuel:
[29:39] You won't find a spot in Berlin!
Lulu:
[29:40] No, I have a great therapist actually. She's wonderful.
Manuel:
[29:42] You do?
Lulu:
[29:43] Yeah, yeah, she's even on the "Cranken Cassa," so it's fine.
Manuel:
[29:45] She's where?
Lulu:
[29:46] She's on the "Cranken Cassa."
Manuel:
[29:47] Oh, Krankenkasse!
[29:39] You won't find a spot in Berlin!
Lulu:
[29:40] No, I have a great therapist actually. She's wonderful.
Manuel:
[29:42] You do?
Lulu:
[29:43] Yeah, yeah, she's even on the "Cranken Cassa," so it's fine.
Manuel:
[29:45] She's where?
Lulu:
[29:46] She's on the "Cranken Cassa."
Manuel:
[29:47] Oh, Krankenkasse!
Lulu:
[29:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my Irish accent of the "Cranken Cassa!" No, it's just been an accumulative situation with the dating, just like losing faith in men. And I hate to say that. Like I don't hate men, I've just lost the trust in a lot of them because I just meet some dudes, man, they're just fucking me over. And it's so exhausting. It's like: Dude, just be honest with me, it's fine. I've been through way worse shit that is nothing related to dating. I can handle a no. It's okay, you know. But again, they just don't want to make themselves uncomfortable, so in the ...
[29:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my Irish accent of the "Cranken Cassa!" No, it's just been an accumulative situation with the dating, just like losing faith in men. And I hate to say that. Like I don't hate men, I've just lost the trust in a lot of them because I just meet some dudes, man, they're just fucking me over. And it's so exhausting. It's like: Dude, just be honest with me, it's fine. I've been through way worse shit that is nothing related to dating. I can handle a no. It's okay, you know. But again, they just don't want to make themselves uncomfortable, so in the ...
Manuel:
[30:21] So ghosting is like the main thing, or ... ?
Lulu:
[30:24] Yeah, ghosting as well. Yeah. The love bombing and the ghosting.
Manuel:
[30:26] What's love bombing?
Lulu:
[30:27] Oh, babes, you're out of the loop!
Manuel:
[30:29] I am very much out of ...
Lulu:
[30:30] You gotta read this book! Love bombing is when someone who you've just met showers you with affection, with gifts, with just compliments. They're just over the top too soon. Like this toxic boyfriend that I had when I first moved here, you know, he was already telling me he loved me after three weeks, told me we're best friends. And I was like: Dude, chill out, right? So that's love bombing. And then they tend to disappear sometimes as well, so they leave you high and dry. So you've caught the feelings because they've made you feel that way, and then they run away. And often people do that for their own insecurities. They want to feel the love from you, they want to feel it back because they're insecure. So then, poof! They just like disappear and the ghosting comes with that. And that's just the worst.
[30:29] I am very much out of ...
Lulu:
[30:30] You gotta read this book! Love bombing is when someone who you've just met showers you with affection, with gifts, with just compliments. They're just over the top too soon. Like this toxic boyfriend that I had when I first moved here, you know, he was already telling me he loved me after three weeks, told me we're best friends. And I was like: Dude, chill out, right? So that's love bombing. And then they tend to disappear sometimes as well, so they leave you high and dry. So you've caught the feelings because they've made you feel that way, and then they run away. And often people do that for their own insecurities. They want to feel the love from you, they want to feel it back because they're insecure. So then, poof! They just like disappear and the ghosting comes with that. And that's just the worst.
Jae:
[31:15] It is really. Yeah, I've experienced that as well.
Lulu:
[31:18] But that's hard for me now because I really don't believe a guy anymore when he says: I really like you, and all this.
Jae:
[31:23] I was thinking about this today, like earlier. I was like ... Because I recently experienced that with another person and the whole time you're telling me that type of shit, I'm like ... And I was crazy. I was literally thinking about this this morning. I was like: I just will never believe a guy whenever they tell me that type of stuff.
Lulu:
[31:39] You and me both, babe!
Jae:
[31:40] Yeah, we're in this together. And it's like, you can't. Because especially like, "Oh, I love you," like those things definitely do take time and stuff. And of course, I mean, I think people feel something, but to those extents, I think a lot of people do fantasize these like magnificent relationships that you see on TV or whatnot. So when you get - and I'm also talking from the guy, both perspectives, because I've been in both places - when you get the opportunity, you just want to feel that thing, no matter if you're genuine about it or if it's very temporary or whatnot. So then also, once that wears off, you're left ... in both places, you're left high and dry over: Oh shit, what did I just do or what just happened to me? And that can leave... especially if you're the person on the receiving side of the love bombing, can make you feel like: What did I do? This person just showed me all this love, all this type of stuff, only to now leave me high and dry, a lot of times without ever explaining why they just left you high and dry.
Lulu:
[32:48] Because sometimes they might not even know why they've done it either, like they're just ...
Jae:
[32:51] Exactly. Exactly. So you're just left in this confusing thing. And the worst, you know, the worst time this ever happens is whenever you are on your healing journey and you've made it right almost to the finish line, almost to the finish line where you have finally felt like you have found yourself. That's where they always come, they always come right ...
Lulu:
[33:10] You're so right. Yeah, that has happened to me as well because just recently in the last month I had a guy, met him on Bumble - downloaded Bumble again, I was like: One more shot, lads, one more shot! - met a lad 36 years old and I thought: Okay, a fair age. And he said online that he was in for a relationship. So we met. Like from the get-go, I knew that he was love bombing me. I was aware. But I was like, okay, meeting up with him, it was fine, I enjoyed the time with him. And it was only in our second or third date that I was like: Oh, actually, I do think I like him, maybe I will give him a shot. And that's when he fucking ghosted me, having love bombed me. And I was like ... I cried only because of the situation, not him, but because I was like: Really? Again? And a 36 year old? And he couldn't just communicate it. And so I had to go text him and being like: I guess we're not meeting again, are we? And he was like: Hey lady. He was like: No, I'm just not ready. And I was like: No problem at all. Why didn't you just tell me? His answer was, and this was on a Saturday, he said: I didn't have time. I was like: You're a piece of shit! Like, how dare you? You're such a prick. You know, I got upset over that. I was like: I am just being disposed of once again, like we are older. I cried for society!
Jae:
[34:21] I mean, I've been there with you, you know, and this shit hurts, you know, like when you do give your heart out there and you're trying to learn, and it feels like every time you fall down, you get back up, you only fall harder the next time, and stuff like that, and it's very frustrating, it can get very, very frustrating.
Lulu:
[34:37] Yeah. And that's why I have no more faith in dating. I really don't, because I'm 34 now. You know what I mean?
Jae:
[34:42] Well, I've always heard that it always happens whenever you least expect it to.
Lulu:
[34:46] I mean I've been off looking for love for months after I got my heart broken last summer. I didn't go near a man for over six months and I was done and I was happy and everything was great. And like I'm back on the bloody dating circuit again, you know? It's like that person should have come in those six months when I wasn't expecting anything, you know?
Jae:
[35:02] Yeah. how about for you, a person who's actually in a relationship, how is dating in Berlin like as a couple? ... Not like this!
Manuel:
[35:12] Our relationship is not open.
Jae:
[35:14] Obviously. But like how do you keep the fire going?
Manuel:
[35:19] Oh like, see, this is such an American concept to like: We're in a relationship so we're going on dates and stuff. Which is actually ... we should do more of because I think, yeah, date night, like it's a super ... Not that we don't have that in Germany, but we don't really articulate it. Like we don't put Date Night on the calendar necessarily, but we should. Speaking of good books, I wanted to mention - obviously your book we'll put in the show notes - but also two books about relationships and love that have really changed my mind on so many things, are the Esther Perel books.
Lulu:
[35:56] Oh, I love her so much.
Manuel:
[35:57] Mating in Captivity. And the other one is about …
Lulu:
[36:00] Attached?
Manuel:
[36:08] The State of Affairs. Both books are excellent.
Lulu:
[36:11] Fantastic.
Manuel:
[36:12] And very ... they're not black and white. They talk about things like open relationships and infidelity and all these things, in terms that are: Hey, let's look at this from a neutral perspective and let's actually look at it kind of scientifically. So those books have helped me a a lot. But in terms of how it's going, I mean, my life is very boring! It revolves around work and then making ... so like, we have a thing where I don't work on Sundays, and that's kind of our day.
Lulu:
[36:44] Do you work on Saturdays?
Manuel:
[36:45] Yes. I like to work. See, like my work is like ... I also like ...
Jae:
[36:51] He's the definition of, "He does what he loves."
Lulu:
[36:55] Oh, that's all right.
Manuel:
[36:56] I don't work for like ... Like when I say "work," it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm clocking in and clocking out. Like I work on productive things that I want to work on, so. But I do have to ... like boundaries are a huge thing that Esther Perel talks about, and one boundary that I was bad at accepting that other people ... or other people have been bad at enforcing, are like, you know, a relationship needs time, and there should be times where there's no work. And I try to not work most evenings, and then also some days. But yeah, in terms of like date nights and stuff, I think Berlin really, there's so much you can and should do as a couple. We mostly just take walks and sit on the couch. It's very nice.
Lulu:
[37:40] But that's also fine.
[36:08] The State of Affairs. Both books are excellent.
Lulu:
[36:11] Fantastic.
Manuel:
[36:12] And very ... they're not black and white. They talk about things like open relationships and infidelity and all these things, in terms that are: Hey, let's look at this from a neutral perspective and let's actually look at it kind of scientifically. So those books have helped me a a lot. But in terms of how it's going, I mean, my life is very boring! It revolves around work and then making ... so like, we have a thing where I don't work on Sundays, and that's kind of our day.
Lulu:
[36:44] Do you work on Saturdays?
Manuel:
[36:45] Yes. I like to work. See, like my work is like ... I also like ...
Jae:
[36:51] He's the definition of, "He does what he loves."
Lulu:
[36:55] Oh, that's all right.
Manuel:
[36:56] I don't work for like ... Like when I say "work," it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm clocking in and clocking out. Like I work on productive things that I want to work on, so. But I do have to ... like boundaries are a huge thing that Esther Perel talks about, and one boundary that I was bad at accepting that other people ... or other people have been bad at enforcing, are like, you know, a relationship needs time, and there should be times where there's no work. And I try to not work most evenings, and then also some days. But yeah, in terms of like date nights and stuff, I think Berlin really, there's so much you can and should do as a couple. We mostly just take walks and sit on the couch. It's very nice.
Lulu:
[37:40] But that's also fine.
Jae:
[37:41] That's also nice. Yeah, it works for you guys. It works for you.
Lulu:
[37:46] You don't have to go like parachuting.
Manuel:
[37:49] I also bought something off of Instagram. Which honestly, Instagram is a different topic, but I kind of wish ... Like Instagram has become a shopping mall where it's just ad after ad, but the ads are so good because they know what you like. And kind of like I've been tapping on some sweater ads lately, and now I'm getting all these ads for sweaters that look really great. And I kind of almost want to be able to put into like: Hey, I'm looking for something like this. Just give me all the ads! Like ... Anyway, I bought a book for my girlfriend for Christmas that's like a thing where it has like these challenges that you're supposed to do as a couple.
Lulu:
[38:29] Ah, I've seen that on Instagram as well.
Manuel:
[38:30] And you have to like scribble, and then it says ... like, it gives you some information, like it's going to take three hours and it's outside, so don't do it if it's freezing, and it's going to cost you around €10. But it doesn't have any more information. And then you scribble it off, and then you have to do it.
Lulu:
[38:48] Is the advert of like a sexy couple covered in paint?
Manuel:
[38:52] I don't remember. It could be. They have two or three different ones. They have like a sexy version, a regular version, and a kid's-friendly version or something, yeah.
Lulu:
[38:59] Okay.
[39:08] I mean I've had many perfect dates in the fact that you go, you meet up with someone just for beers: Let's not do this whole dinner thing, that's weird, right, in my opinion. Summertime dates with a Späti beer, having a laugh, getting to know each other, and yeah, that's kind of it. I'm pretty simple like that, you know. I mean I'm more about just getting to know the person and their intentions.
Manuel:
[39:31] I agree that it's a bad idea to sit down somewhere where you're kind of stuck. And I would even ... I think taking a walk or going to a Späti is great, and you could even do something more and do an activity together, like go boulder or do something where even if you end up not liking each other that much, you're still having a good time, 'cause you're still doing whatever you wanted to do.
Lulu:
[39:53] So my trick on a first date ... because I treat the first date like a job interview! Honestly. No, I don't sit down and ask them a whole load of questions, nothing like that, because it's like the screening interview. Because I have met dudes where they don't appear as funny in person as they were showing me online, you know, so I'm sick of that now. So I usually say, "Oh, I'll meet you after work. I have like an hour." But then if I start to enjoy the date, I just forget the whole hour thing. I don't excuse myself. It carries on, you know, and then the second date, like your second day at work is, you know, where you start to learn a bit more, and you get to know the person, things like that. So I like to keep it sweet and simple at the start.
Manuel:
[40:31] Yeah. Setting a hard time limit, I think is great advice, not just for dates, but like in general, saying like, "Hey, I'm sorry. Just so you know, I have a hard limit at this time." You can always let it go later, but that way you always have an easy out. You can always say, like, "Really sorry, but got to go now."
Lulu:
[40:47] Yeah, because even if you go bouldering, you're still stuck with them if they're strange, you know. Remember, there are strange people out there! And there's people that don't talk that much, and then the worst kind of dates that I'm on is when I'm a motor mouth and I just don't stop talking, because they're just not talking. I've given them the chance of asking the questions and they're just like one-word answers, and like: No, this is me, now I have to carry this on to make this interesting for the two of us for the next hour. So, yeah, my screening dates ...
Manuel:
[41:13] How do you say goodbye after a date where both of you clearly know there's not going to be another date? Do you say like: That was it, bye? Or do you say like: Hey, yeah, I'll write you? Like ...
Lulu:
[41:25] It depends really, actually. But I've had this ... I mean, if I know that I want to see someone again, I'll say: We should meet again, and we say bye casually, because I don't usually tend to kiss on the first date either. It's not part of my screening routine. But you would know that someone ...
Manuel:
[41:42] What if they lean in?
Lulu:
[41:43] They rarely do. No, to be fair, no, I've never had that issue of guys coming in for one. But what did I want to say? Yeah, if you both left, it's like: Okay, bye. That to me is like: Okay, we're done. Right?
Jae:
[41:57] No hug, nothing ... ?
Lulu:
[41:58] Well, no, sure, you can hug and be like: Okay, bye. But if I want to see them again ... because only like a couple of months ago, I went on a day with a nice guy and I liked him. The problem is I told him about my book and I think I scared him off, because we got on really well until then.
Manuel:
[42:11] People are going to start googling you now!
Lulu:
[42:14] That's why that's not my real name, Lulu is not my real name, ladies and gentlemen. But yeah, I really liked him and like he was into me. When I told him about the book, we high-fived. He was like, "That's so cool that you did that. I always wanted to write a book." So in my head, I was like: OK, cool, we can like bond on this. And so I texted the next day being like: It was really nice meeting you. Let's let's catch up before you go on holidays next week. And he's like: Sorry, I don't have any time. And I was like: Oh, fuck! We got on like really well. Unless I just was totally confused by the whole thing, but I think it was actually the book that turned him off. So I don't tell anyone about my book anymore.
Manuel:
[42:47] Except here.
Lulu:
[42:49] Except everyone that ... Yeah, but like you don't know, it's like your listeners ...
Manuel:
[42:53] We're actually putting a filter on this!
Jae:
[42:54] It's not her real name, actually!
Lulu:
[42:57] Yeah, I was going to say ... a really deep voice!
[37:41] That's also nice. Yeah, it works for you guys. It works for you.
Lulu:
[37:46] You don't have to go like parachuting.
Manuel:
[37:49] I also bought something off of Instagram. Which honestly, Instagram is a different topic, but I kind of wish ... Like Instagram has become a shopping mall where it's just ad after ad, but the ads are so good because they know what you like. And kind of like I've been tapping on some sweater ads lately, and now I'm getting all these ads for sweaters that look really great. And I kind of almost want to be able to put into like: Hey, I'm looking for something like this. Just give me all the ads! Like ... Anyway, I bought a book for my girlfriend for Christmas that's like a thing where it has like these challenges that you're supposed to do as a couple.
Lulu:
[38:29] Ah, I've seen that on Instagram as well.
Manuel:
[38:30] And you have to like scribble, and then it says ... like, it gives you some information, like it's going to take three hours and it's outside, so don't do it if it's freezing, and it's going to cost you around €10. But it doesn't have any more information. And then you scribble it off, and then you have to do it.
Lulu:
[38:48] Is the advert of like a sexy couple covered in paint?
Manuel:
[38:52] I don't remember. It could be. They have two or three different ones. They have like a sexy version, a regular version, and a kid's-friendly version or something, yeah.
Lulu:
[38:59] Okay.
The Perfect Date
Jae:
[39:01] I have a random question for you. Actually both of you guys. What's your idea of like the perfect date?
Lulu:[39:01] I have a random question for you. Actually both of you guys. What's your idea of like the perfect date?
[39:08] I mean I've had many perfect dates in the fact that you go, you meet up with someone just for beers: Let's not do this whole dinner thing, that's weird, right, in my opinion. Summertime dates with a Späti beer, having a laugh, getting to know each other, and yeah, that's kind of it. I'm pretty simple like that, you know. I mean I'm more about just getting to know the person and their intentions.
Manuel:
[39:31] I agree that it's a bad idea to sit down somewhere where you're kind of stuck. And I would even ... I think taking a walk or going to a Späti is great, and you could even do something more and do an activity together, like go boulder or do something where even if you end up not liking each other that much, you're still having a good time, 'cause you're still doing whatever you wanted to do.
Lulu:
[39:53] So my trick on a first date ... because I treat the first date like a job interview! Honestly. No, I don't sit down and ask them a whole load of questions, nothing like that, because it's like the screening interview. Because I have met dudes where they don't appear as funny in person as they were showing me online, you know, so I'm sick of that now. So I usually say, "Oh, I'll meet you after work. I have like an hour." But then if I start to enjoy the date, I just forget the whole hour thing. I don't excuse myself. It carries on, you know, and then the second date, like your second day at work is, you know, where you start to learn a bit more, and you get to know the person, things like that. So I like to keep it sweet and simple at the start.
Manuel:
[40:31] Yeah. Setting a hard time limit, I think is great advice, not just for dates, but like in general, saying like, "Hey, I'm sorry. Just so you know, I have a hard limit at this time." You can always let it go later, but that way you always have an easy out. You can always say, like, "Really sorry, but got to go now."
Lulu:
[40:47] Yeah, because even if you go bouldering, you're still stuck with them if they're strange, you know. Remember, there are strange people out there! And there's people that don't talk that much, and then the worst kind of dates that I'm on is when I'm a motor mouth and I just don't stop talking, because they're just not talking. I've given them the chance of asking the questions and they're just like one-word answers, and like: No, this is me, now I have to carry this on to make this interesting for the two of us for the next hour. So, yeah, my screening dates ...
Manuel:
[41:13] How do you say goodbye after a date where both of you clearly know there's not going to be another date? Do you say like: That was it, bye? Or do you say like: Hey, yeah, I'll write you? Like ...
Lulu:
[41:25] It depends really, actually. But I've had this ... I mean, if I know that I want to see someone again, I'll say: We should meet again, and we say bye casually, because I don't usually tend to kiss on the first date either. It's not part of my screening routine. But you would know that someone ...
Manuel:
[41:42] What if they lean in?
Lulu:
[41:43] They rarely do. No, to be fair, no, I've never had that issue of guys coming in for one. But what did I want to say? Yeah, if you both left, it's like: Okay, bye. That to me is like: Okay, we're done. Right?
Jae:
[41:57] No hug, nothing ... ?
Lulu:
[41:58] Well, no, sure, you can hug and be like: Okay, bye. But if I want to see them again ... because only like a couple of months ago, I went on a day with a nice guy and I liked him. The problem is I told him about my book and I think I scared him off, because we got on really well until then.
Manuel:
[42:11] People are going to start googling you now!
Lulu:
[42:14] That's why that's not my real name, Lulu is not my real name, ladies and gentlemen. But yeah, I really liked him and like he was into me. When I told him about the book, we high-fived. He was like, "That's so cool that you did that. I always wanted to write a book." So in my head, I was like: OK, cool, we can like bond on this. And so I texted the next day being like: It was really nice meeting you. Let's let's catch up before you go on holidays next week. And he's like: Sorry, I don't have any time. And I was like: Oh, fuck! We got on like really well. Unless I just was totally confused by the whole thing, but I think it was actually the book that turned him off. So I don't tell anyone about my book anymore.
Manuel:
[42:47] Except here.
Lulu:
[42:49] Except everyone that ... Yeah, but like you don't know, it's like your listeners ...
Manuel:
[42:53] We're actually putting a filter on this!
Jae:
[42:54] It's not her real name, actually!
Lulu:
[42:57] Yeah, I was going to say ... a really deep voice!
Message for Your Younger Self
Lulu:
[43:12] That's really interesting, because I actually saw a photo of myself when I was five years old the other day and I thought to myself: What would I say to me now if I met me at five? So what would I say to myself eight years ago? I would tell myself: Lulu, chill the fuck out and just enjoy Berlin for what it is, enjoy your life for what it is. Don't be putting pressure on dates. Don't be putting pressure on yourself to find someone. Life's full of adventures. The city is so adventurous. I have made incredible friends from online dating. I even had a guy come and install my kitchen for free one time, it was amazing. He wouldn't take any payment. I was like, "No, I insist." He was like, "No, no, it's fine." I was like, "All right, whatever." So just to enjoy yourself. It's grand. Like don't be putting societal expectations on you to get the man, the mortgage, and the baby. Because in the end I actually only want one of those three things. I don't want a baby and I don't want a mortgage, you know? But like enjoy the ride, it's fine, just have a laugh. And focus on your German.
Jae:
[44:10] That is very, very important. That's something I've tried to say to myself too. I consider myself one of those hopeless romantics. And the one thing I always tell myself now is like: Let go, relax, you know? A lot of times I think we put so much emphasis on this that you lose the joy of everything else around you. Because you're so pigeonholed in this one thing that now this one thing fucks up your entire experience here, when it's such a small little thing compared to everything else that you have.
Lulu:
[44:37] But if you think about it in life in general, it's a big thing to find The One. It's a big thing. Like romantic love is a huge part of our lives. We're made to feel that. As children, we watch fairy tales. When you grow up, you watch the chick flicks. Everything does revolve around finding love. But I have so much love for my friends, for my family, for my cat, you know, like it's not always about finding one person to keep you happy for, you know, the rest of your life or for however long. So just enjoy the ride. Life is so short anyway, you know, you don't know when the lights are going to go out, so just keep smiling, keep drinking your beers, and just enjoy yourself, you know.