Being Vegan in Berlin (It's a Bit Like Living in the Future)

Olivia:
[2:09] Sure. Hi, I'm Olivia. I'm 19. I've been vegan since October of 2020.

Manuel:
[2:15] And so the story is that you emailed us and said: I'm an au pair in Berlin, which I'm happy to talk about, and then you did talk about. And then you said, P.S. I'm also a vegan activist and we should do an episode about that. Or not about that, but about vegan life in Berlin.

Olivia:
[2:34] Yes. So I came with two ideas and I've been very lucky because now I can speak about both of them. So, yeah.

Manuel:
[2:40] Awesome. And Rae.

Rae:
[2:41] Yes, I am Rae. I am from the States. I have been a vegan since March 2020, the pandemic, so that is ... Yeah, that's me.

Laura:
[2:52] And I'm Laura. I've been vegan for, I think it's seven years now.

Rae:
[2:57] Wow.

Laura:
[2:58] And Ray and I just met Manuel at a recording for his other podcast, and he invited us to be here, so. So cool.

Manuel:
[3:06] "The other podcast!" I've been vegan for a while, but I don't think that I know nearly as much about this topic as you all do. You wrote a whole preparatory document. I'm happy to share some suggestions in terms of like restaurants and stuff later, but what are we talking about today? I'm looking for the document now. I feel so unprepared!

Why Vegan?

[3:33] Defining veganism is bullet point number one. (Yeah.) So there's the five sections, four sections. Before we start with this, why should someone who's listening to this show, who's interested in Berlin, who's thinking about moving here, why should they even listen?

Rae:
[3:51] Berlin is the vegan capital of Europe, if not the world.

Laura:
[3:54] Yeah.

Olivia:
[3:55] Yeah, absolutely. And everybody who thinks that animals deserve any sort of moral consideration at all, should logically have an interest in this topic and want to find out more and inform themselves about what's going on in animal ag [animal agriculture] because a lot is going on.

Manuel:
[4:11] And we should say: you're an activist, Olivia. You have an Instagram and stuff like that.

Olivia:
[4:17] Yeah: @olivethevegan_.

Manuel:
[4:19] Where does all of the vegans ... ? She's very good about promoting her work, which I admire. I feel like I'm not quite the opposite, it's not that I don't care about sharing what I believe in, but I also ... I'm not, I'm not a vegan activist. I just made a decision for myself and I'm happy to mention it or talk about it, but I ... Yeah, where do you guys fall in this spectrum of: It's just something that I do or don't do and I'm very passionate about it?

Laura:
[4:53] That's such a good question. For me, I really feel like, if you live in Berlin, for example, or Germany, and you make a good salary, you make enough money to rent a flat, to have a comfortable life, you are in the top 10% worldwide in terms of income, right? And with that comes so many choices about what to eat, where to live, what to buy, your lifestyle. And I do feel in some respects, after learning more about veganism and the impact that animal ag has on our world, I do feel it's a bit of a moral responsibility to look at your life and say: What impact do I have on other people ,and what can I do about it, you know? So I do try to talk to people about veganism, but if they're willing, you know. I know that vegans get a bad rap and I try to be aware of the context.

Manuel:
[5:51] And how about you, Rae?

Rae:
[5:53] Yeah, I'm also a quiet but passionate vegan. So if you let me talk about it, I will talk about it, but I also don't come in to the room and scream, unless like, you know, someone provokes me a bit and I'm like, "Oh, well, you know, we do ... we do have a choice." Like Laura just mentioned, it is so much like every day we make a choice to literally eat something, and that is a choice for or against like animal suffering, the environment, everything, so ...

Olivia:
[6:21] With great power comes great responsibility. (Spider-Man!)

Manuel:
[6:24] Yeah. But I will say like, I'm also very passionate about the subject and truly believe, as you all said, that it's kind of a moral imperative, I guess, but I also ... like something that really ticks me off is when people are judgmental about anything, or, to turn that around, I really admire people who are just not judgmental, like people who will have a conversation with you and you can tell them anything and they listen and maybe give feedback, but they don't judge. I love that. And and I feel like there's always such a fine line between talking about this topic and then judging people, or avoiding that people feel judged just because they haven't made that decision yet.

Olivia:
[7:11] I agree with you and I think something that I always have to tell myself, and other vegans also have to understand, is most of us weren't born vegan. Most of us ate animal products for a period of our lives. And yeah, as soon as you start coming at this topic from a place of moral superiority, it's never going to be a good conversation and that's something that I've learned over and over again, right? So there's always a good way to speak to people, to make somebody feel listened to and heard. So yeah, that's really important.

Manuel:
[7:43] Okay, so point 1 out of 4: Defining Veganism. What's that about?

Olivia:
[7:51] Should I go for this? (Yeah, go for it.) Sure, okay. So I think it is important we talk about this because there are some misconceptions around veganism, especially with kind of classing it as a diet versus like what I think it is, which is, I guess, a lifestyle and a way of living. So there is a definition from the vegan society and it goes like this, it's like: Veganism is a way of life that seeks to exclude as far as is practicable and possible all forms of cruelty and exploitation towards animals. And I think it's a fairly good definition and it contains those two words, "practicable" and "possible", and I think it's good because it... yeah, it allows for things like, for example, if you need to take a life-saving medicine that's been tested on animals or something like that. So it's quite an all-encompassing definition.

Manuel:
[8:41] Or if it would just be very hard or impractical to even find out, right? No one can be like, "Gotcha" if you mistakenly, I don't know, had a sip of milk.

Olivia:
[8:53] Yeah, or had something with milk powder in or something like that.

Manuel:
[8:57] How do you guys treat products that don't have the V label but it says, like, Kann Spuren von Milch und Nüssen enthalten? Do you eat those or no?

Rae:
[9:08] I do, because I'm just like, I can't get away from it. Everything is either covered in nuts or maybe some milk or something. And I'm like: Ughh!

Manuel:
[9:18] Yeah. I feel about it kind of the same way that I feel about meat companies making vegan products. I think it's still better that those things exist. I don't think ... It's not like a religious choice, where I will boycott any company that also produces other things, but ...

Olivia:
[9:36] You wouldn't be able to eat anything! (That too!) We live in a non-vegan world and we have to accept those things. But also when it says: "Can contain milk, can contain egg", usually that's just from an allergy point of view.

Manuel:
[9:49] It's just because it's in the same factory, and so there could have been something in the end.

Olivia:
[9:54] Lazy factory worker that didn't wash their hands or something like that.

Manuel:
[9:59] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. That's that's it already for Number 1?

Olivia:
[10:02] Well, I think just coming back to like that thing, I think maybe people who haven't ever met vegans before might hear "veganism" and think of it like the same category as like a keto diet or like a paleo diet or something like that. But it's very much not it. Food is a big part of veganism, but it's also about, I guess, just living in a way that tries to reduce animal suffering. At least that's how I feel about it, don't know about you guys.

Rae:
[10:31] Yeah, I also, when I was vegetarian, I tried this diet called, "whole food plant-based", which is like veganism, but you don't eat anything processed and you can have like honey and stuff, so it's it's sort of vegan, but you know, that was a diet. It wasn't a moral choice. It doesn't matter like where you got anything, so it was very much like focused on your health. And veganism is not like, "We're doing it for our health". You know, we're doing it to reduce suffering, like we said before.

Manuel:
[11:00] (Yeah, absolutely.) So no leather. So one other thing that I ... I have a leather belt from before I became vegan.

Rae:
[11:11] "The before times."

Manuel:
[11:13] The before times, which I still use.

Rae:
[11:15] You're banned! Get out!

Manuel:
[11:18] I'm trying to get the judgments out of you!

Olivia:
[11:21] I mean, the way I think about it is if you... I have things from before I was vegan that contain like wool and stuff, and it doesn't make any sense to throw them out.

Manuel:
[11:29] Yeah, if anything, you would donate them. But it's like a super cheap belt that, I don't know ...

Olivia:
[11:34] Exactly. Like, be practical about it. If you've got a belt that you had before, you know, just keep it and use it until it's done.

Manuel:
[11:42] Leather is so bad on so many levels, not just in terms of animals. It's like, I don't know.

Olivia:
[11:48] Are you talking about like the chromium, like tanneries and stuff like that and how it has effects on human health or ... ?

Manuel:
[11:54] Yeah, yeah. The humans that make leather often stand in this really terrible chemical (Chromium.) God, you know so much, Olivia. I'm just going to shut up!

Olivia:
[12:06] No, no, heavy metal poisoning. It's a real thing. (Yeah.) Absolutely. Which is why, like you go into some shops and they have this label now and it says, like "Chromium-free leather" or, like not ... "From trusted tanneries" or whatever, or "Vegetable tanned", I think that's what they call it. And it's like, yeah, but it's still the skin of a murdered animal, you know.

Rae:
[12:27] It's like the free-range eggs.

Olivia:
[12:29] Exactly, yeah. And I think we'll probably touch on this a lot today about like humane washing and these terms that the industry like to give us every day, right? (Yeah.)

Manuel:
[12:40] Okay, so let's talk about the why. Why should someone become vegan? And then I don't know if this is in your plan - Oh! I'm just scrolling now, now why did no one correct me? This is just ... I said 4 points, but there's a page 2, so it's actually 7 points. Buckle in, everybody, this is going to be a long show! - Okay: Why should anyone become a vegan? And then ... you didn't write this down, but: How should they go about it? Because I think going from a meat-based diet to full-on veganism, just like that, might be a little complicated. But let's start with the why.

Rae:
[13:21] I think we mentioned it a few times, like the why of like, you have this choice to reduce suffering, and like we have the privilege to do it, I think.

Laura:
[13:30] Yes, absolutely.

Rae:
[13:31] Yeah, especially in this modern age, we don't need to go out and have meat, we don't need to have animal products, we don't need to farm these animals, like we can literally just go to the store and buy lentils and rice and it's even healthier than you think it is.

Laura:
[13:46] Yeah. And I think the animal suffering part is very straightforward, right? But what I personally think a lot about, and what I wish more vegans would talk about, is the human cost as well, right? I mean, communities with slaughterhouses, these are often placed in poor communities who aren't able to advocate for themselves politically. The workers in these places are mistreated. They're getting PTSD. It's awful for these communities, I mean, and I don't I just don't think there's any sort of rational or healthy way to employ someone to kill multiple animals every second and have it not take an immense toll on their mental health, you know?

Olivia:
[14:34] Absolutely. No child, when asked: What do you want to be when you grow up? ever says: I want to spend day in, day out, literally pulling a knife across an animal's throat. It has so ... and you're right, people don't consider the human suffering element of it, but it's so panoptic, I mean, not just with like the slaughterhouse workers, but with things like world hunger as well. We currently grow enough crops to feed 90 billion land animals. Billion, right? And yet there are so many humans that still can't eat. And so many of these people live in countries where food is grown for livestock feed and then shipped over to the West, right? And they're starving themselves. So it's incredible. And then you've got things like pandemic risk and antibiotic resistance. (Absolutely, yes.) And it's a network of suffering, I like to say, not just the animals. The animals are at the center of it, but it transcends into humans as well.

Manuel:
[15:32] I feel like many, many people have at least heard all of these things and/or seen ... pick your favorite documentary where you see horrific images of animals being slaughtered and stuff like that ...

Laura:
[15:44] Dominion. Watch it for free on YouTube.

Olivia:
[15:46] Thank you. I was going to do it if you weren't going to!

Manuel:
[15:50] I think a lot of people ... I mean, it's all so, so horrific that either you don't even get yourself to watch it, or you kind of ... it kind of lives in a separate part of your brain, and so people compartmentalize. The book that really - I know you brought a book - the book that made a big difference for me, like the book that I read and I was like: Okay, I'm convinced I'll go vegan, is a super old one, it's Animal Liberation by Peter Singer. And what I liked about it is that it didn't do what many of these documentaries do, which is to play with kind of these strong images and appealing to your emotion. It's super rational and super logical, and he just says: Okay, let's start with this. Do you agree that inflicting pain on a being that doesn't want to be in pain is immoral? Yes or no? And do you agree that animals have willpower and do feel pain? (And want to live?) And want to live, and if not, if you don't agree, then here's the proof. Like he just lays it out all out there and then everything else just, it's like a mathematical formula. It's just: Do you agree that you can now live a very healthy and long life with a high quality of life without doing any of this? Yes. Like he just lays it all out there and it's super logical and you just ... like even if you don't want to you just feel yourself saying: Yes yes yes, because it's all so logical and then you just end up saying like: Okay, I'm convinced.

Olivia:
[17:22] Yeah you're also a very logical person, I think, as well. I think different people are, I guess, convinced by different things, right? But you're right. And for me, and for members of my family as well, it came down to that question of exactly what you said, which is: If we have a choice to reduce animal suffering, and we are in a world now where we can do that, why wouldn't we? As simple as that, you know?

Berlin is a (Vegan) Bubble

Rae:
[17:49] And especially in Berlin, I feel like we live in a bubble where it's like ... I used to do stand-up comedy, and one of my colleagues had a really great sketch about how you should make fun of vegans now, because in the future, eating meat is gonna be like the new smoking, and everyone's gonna be like: Why did we do that? Like, it was so bad. And I just think like Berlin is special because it feels like you can have these kinds of conversations, you can go anywhere, eat anything, and it's not like: Oh, you're vegan, it's not like a turnoff, you're just normal here. So I think that's what's special about Berlin and like being vegan in Berlin is like, you can live in the future a bit.

Olivia:
[18:27] Yes, I agree. I totally agree with that. Yeah, it's nice because, like you said, there are ... it's becoming the new normal and it's very much so, like, at the front of that, the movement is here, I think. Yeah, no longer are you looked at in a way that is, you know, if you say, "Oh, I want the vegan option," you're not looked at like a dinosaur these days, you know? Yeah.

Manuel:
[18:52] It's super nice about Berlin, but it's also a little frustrating. Like I get used to it here that there's so many vegan restaurants, and even if you go to a non vegan restaurant, there will be something there for you. And then you go to like, I don't know, the town where I went to school, and there's nothing. And then I go to the kebab place, because of course they'll have falafel, and they're like, "No we don't have falafel." And I'm like, "Is the sauce vegan?" And they're like, "What's vegan?" Like yeah it's just like: What's happening? How can it be so different?"

Olivia:
[19:25] Yeah, there's this ... I don't know if you've watched My Big Fat Greek Wedding, the movie? (A long time ago). Yeah, anyway, there's this scene in it where I think it's the husband he's vegetarian, so not even vegan, and he says to like the family, "Oh, I'm vegetarian." And they go, "Oh, yes, vegetarian, vegetarian." And then he was like, "So I don't eat meat." And they said, "Oh, you don't eat meat? Okay, I give you lamb." And sometimes these things remind me of that scene.

Manuel:
[19:56] But yeah, But it's it's a joke in the movie, but it happens where it's like, "Okay, but you'll eat chicken, right? Or you'll eat fish, of course?

Olivia:
[20:03] Right. And most of the time, these people maybe haven't even met a vegan before. So with these situations, it's always just best to be kind, be friendly, and just say, "No, this is why I'm doing it. These are the reasons. Why don't we find a solution together? Why don't we, you know, cooperate?"

Manuel:
[20:20] "Why don't I have bread with hummus?"

Olivia:
[20:23] Yeah, sometimes you got to do what you got to do, Manuel, you know?

Manuel:
[20:27] Okay, so how about this guy that you brought the book ... ?

This Is Vegan Propaganda (Ed Winters)

Rae:
[20:31] Yeah, I brought This Is Vegan Propaganda because I thought ... This is the theme by Ed Winters, but I think most people know him as Earthling Ed. (Yeah.) But I think I realized we're all fans of him.

Manuel:
[20:43] He's quite confrontational, right?

Olivia:
[20:45] No, no. Oh, no. Earthling Ed is like the least confrontational vegan activist there is. (Oh, really?) Yeah, yeah. He's, he's ...

Manuel:
[20:53] He just sits down and explains.

Olivia:
[20:54] Exactly.

Rae:
[20:55] He invites you to a conversation.

Olivia:
[20:56] Exactly.

Laura:
[20:59] Yeah. (Yeah. Yeah.)

Rae:
[20:55] Yeah. I really admire his method. I mean he's not one of these like "debate-me bros" like running around campus with a microphone. I mean he does ask hard questions that force people to think, but he's only doing it with people who want to be there and who actually want to engage with him. I love his videos. I mean I'm always trying out his techniques on non-vegans in my life who want to go there with me.

Olivia:
[21:22] So Earthling Ed really pioneers the Socratic method which is...

Manuel:
[21:28] I think Socrates pioneered that method!

Olivia:
[21:30] Oh yes, of course. He is utilizing the Socratic method then, maybe that's better, but he does his conversations primarily just by asking questions. And it's a very effective technique, because when you ask somebody a difficult question, you're not telling them what you believe and saying: Right, you've got to believe what I believe. You are getting them to explore their own beliefs and then challenging them just by asking questions. And it's really, really effective. And I watch all of Earthling Ed's stuff. And I think if you're interested in vegan activism or standing up for the animals, then Earthling Ed is a great place to start.

Rae:
[22:10] Or if you're very curious, like you have a common thing of: Ah, but you know, we've eaten meat for all of human history. Like he has debated that so many times and you can go to all these conversations and see like: Oh, like now I can see how this is not so true, and how we live in a modern day, and oh, he's right there. And it really gets you to think about your own process, like you just said.

Manuel:
[22:34] Okay, I'll read that book.

Animal Rights Activism in Berlin

[22:36] Animal rights activism in Berlin.You are an animal rights activist in Berlin. Why do we even need activists in Berlin if it's the vegan capital?

Rae:
[22:44] Yeah, we're good here, there's no problem!

Manuel:
[22:47] We're good here. Shouldn't we go to other cities?

Olivia:
[22:49] Well, yes, but unfortunately, not all of ... everybody in Berlin is vegan, and there's definitely a place for activism here. And there is a thriving activism scene in Berlin. So over the last three months, I've been part of a group, they're called Animal Rights Square and they meet twice a week and they do like Cube of Truth style activism, you know, like you might have seen them with the screens and they show usually Dominion, and it just prompts conversation, debate with people on the street. And it's a great technique. It's also good for your own personal development because you, like for example, with me, I've gained so much confidence speaking about veganism and about animal rights through this, and it's been such a learning journey for me, so I can highly recommend it, yeah.

Manuel:
[23:41] Do you ever get people who are very aggressive or anything?

Olivia:
[23:44] Yeah, all the time. I had a man on Sunday ... Or I've had people try and convince me that carrots have souls. I've had ...

Manuel:
[23:56] Which even if it was true, would be: What about it? It's like: Okay, maybe they do, but I mean, they don't, but even if they had souls, then it would still not be okay to kill animals.

Olivia:
[24:08] I had a man on Sunday who proceeded to lecture me about protein and I just asked him, "What is protein?" And he couldn't even tell me. I said, "What is protein made up of?" Not a clue. I said, "Yeah, maybe you need to do a bit of research before you start making these sweeping claims." But yeah, but most of the people I speak to are very open-minded, they've stopped and looked at the footage, and for some people, it's the first time they're ever seeing animal agriculture, ever, like the first time they've ever looked and even considered what might happen in a slaughterhouse. So it's great.

Manuel:
[24:44] And is there any data on how effective these protests are?

Olivia:
[24:49] Well, I think it's interesting you say that, because recently I've been really considering the effectiveness of different styles of activism. And if you think about the animal industries, like meat, dairy, eggs, but also things like animal testing, they're all propped up by lots of of different pillars, right? And one of those pillars is demand and consumer choices. And obviously the activism in that Cube style only works to tackle that one pillar of demand. So there's lots of space for activists to do other things, like, for example, working in governments to make legislation, like the animal sentience bill or something like that. But I don't know if there's any direct data about it. I have a friend who's really mathematical, maybe I should put you in touch with him, (Yeah.) because he likes to consider that sort of stuff.

Laura:
[25:40] Yeah, I used to do Cube of Truth (Cool!) back in the US. It's such a positive experience because, you know, people get so mad like on the internet, for example, but if you talk to people in real life, obviously there are assholes, like you said, but people are so willing to actually like stand there and look at the footage and talk to you about it. I find it really inspiring that, you know, not everyone you talk to is going to go vegan that day, but maybe you've planted the seed for a couple people.

Manuel:
[26:09] Absolutely.

Olivia:
[26:11] Ray, do you do any sort of like activism at all? Well, I mean, even like talking to your parents about it and friends, that's kind of activism, so I think everybody does some.

Rae:
[26:21] Yeah. I'm not like a ... super involved with any organization, like my friend works at ProVeg, which is a non-profit in Berlin, does a lot of work there, and we build our own communities, which, by the way, there is a trivia night at Plant Base, and we have a team. So if you want to compete against us, come to Plant Base, August 2nd, we'll be there.

Manuel:
[26:43] And is it ... er ... is it trivia ... ?

Rae:
[26:45] It's vegan trivia.

Manuel:
[26:46] Oh my God, I'm not joking!

Olivia:
[26:48] Maybe this is my calling!

Manuel:
[26:51] Olivia will go and will win first prize!

Laura:
[26:53] You should not have invited her!

Rae:
[26:55] You want to see a lot of angry vegans at each other! (Oh my God!) That's the place to be. (Love that!) Yeah, which is another reason Berlin is such this beautiful place because you can have - I could've never imagined this in the US, at least where I'm from - where you could have a literal all-vegan trivia night. So that is so cool that we have that here.

Olivia:
[27:15] Yeah, if anyone's wondering what Plant Base is, it's like a vegan, it's on Prenzlauer Allee. It's a vegan cafe, but it also does these community nights. They do like dating nights, they do like vegan cocktail workshops, they do like Kimchi-making nights, all sorts of stuff. So yeah, it's a cool place.

Manuel:
[27:37] Good place for breakfast as well. (Yeah, yeah.) Okay, next. Are we done with the activism in Berlin? Yes.

Olivia:
[27:44] Actually, just one thing. (Yes.) Recently, I've created a group called Berlin Against Fur, and the reason I've done that is because, so you know how lots of brands have been recently dropping fur, like Gucci and Moncler and Canada Goose? Anyway, basically, these have all come about through targeted pressure campaigning, which is when people really go for one company, demonstrate outside of them, put pressure on them, and eventually they drop fur. It's a really effective technique. So unfortunately Berlin didn't really have a big presence of anti-fur demonstrators or protesters, so I recently have just put a group together and if anybody is interested in coming and screaming into a megaphone, then get in touch. We have an Instagram page.

Manuel:
[28:33] That sounds like fun.

Olivia:
[28:34] Yeah, it's really, really good fun. And it's all legal. Like it's all non-violent, legal, like we get permits, so you're not going to be arrested or anything like that.

Manuel:
[28:41] Legal megaphone fun. (Yeah.)

Restaurant Recommendations

[28:45] Okay, restaurants and shopping. Now I feel like this the part where I can contribute. (Yeah, go for it!)

Olivia:
[28:50] You've been contributing the whole time, Manuel!

Manuel:
[28:51] Thank you, thank you. Thank you for saying that. (You keep the ordnung!) Thank you for having me! Okay, I have favorite restaurants. (The list is coming out, it's getting serious!) So many, there's so many good restaurants. We just had some good falafel, Kiez Falafel, although the bread could be better, but Kiez Falafel - we'll link all these books and organizations and Facebook groups and places in the show notes, of course - so the Kiez Falafel is good. What else? There's a really good Polish pierogi place nearby, which, they have vegan pierogi.

Olivia:
[29:29] I've never tried pierogi.

Manuel:
[29:31] Very good. It's like dumplings, Polish dumplings. (Sold!) Okay.I have more, but you guys go. I don't want to steal all the restaurant recommendations. (No, go for it, Manuel, we want to hear it.) Okay, so one of the very good Vietnamese places in Pankow is Nam Y. They're mostly vegan, they have some fish dishes, but otherwise it's all vegan, it's very good. Which other genre would you like next?

Rae:
[30:00] I want to know your pizza recommendation.

Manuel:
[30:02] Oh, pizza is tricky. I want to know yours.

Rae:
[30:05] La Stella Nera.

Manuel:
[30:06] Ah, that's a good one. (Where is that?) (Neukölln.) (Okay.)

Rae:
[30:10] But you have to make a reservation or else you can't get in ...

Manuel:
[30:13] Yeah, and it's so far, if you live in the north. The one, it's a chain-ish, it's okay, it's not the best vegan pizza ever.

Rae:
[30:24] Is it Domino's?

Manuel:
[30:26] No, Milano Vice.

Rae:
[30:27] Oh yeah. No, yeah.

Manuel:
[30:28] It's okay.

Rae:
[30:29] They have a nice like fake tuna thing. (Yeah.)

Olivia:
[30:31] Did you guys go to the Veganes Sommerfest in Alexanderplatz?

Manuel:
[30:35] We didn't. I would never go to Alexanderplatz!

Rae:
[30:39] Just on a basis... (Unless I was forced.) I'm rolling my eyes!

Olivia:
[30:45] Well, it's organized by ProVeg, and it was really great this year. They had this vegan pizza stand. And I don't know about you guys, but personally, I've never been a massive fan of vegan cheese. I've never found one, except for one, which I can talk about later. I've never really liked it. I've always felt that it's got too much coconut oil in it and it kind of clumps in your teeth. And it's not for me anyway. So I was reluctant to try this like vegan pizza at the Veganes Sommerfest. But I did, and it was the closest mozzarella alternative I've ever had. And it was super. And like, you know, like a good pizza, you need like the crispy base, you need like a good sauce, and then if you've got the cheese on top, then it's just the cherry on the cake. It was great. I don't even know the name of it, I'm sorry. Maybe I'll find it and you can put it in.

Manuel:
[31:33] Do you have a favorite frozen pizza?

Rae:
[31:36] I like the Rewe. (Oh!) "This one's really good."

Olivia:
[31:39] Rewe.

Manuel:
[31:39] Garden Gourmet Veggie Pizza Lovers. It's pretty good.

Rae:
[31:45] The branding's pretty good. It's green.

Manuel:
[31:47] Yeah, it's one of the few good ones. Okay, then we also have, obviously, German food.

Laura:
[31:56] Yeah, I'm curious to hear about this one. What are your German recommendations? (From a German?)

Manuel:
[32:00] There's only one.

Olivia:
[32:02] Försters.

Rae:
[32:03] Vaust.

Olivia:
[32:04] Is it Försters? (Försters.)

Rae:
[32:05] There's Vaust, too.

Manuel:
[32:06] Oh, really?

Rae:
[32:07] Yeah, it's in Charlottenburg.

Manuel:
[32:09] Oh, I have to go try that one. Försters is so good. It's really good.

Olivia:
[32:13] Yeah, I enjoyed it. Not that I love German cuisine.

Manuel:
[32:17] You don't?!

Olivia:
[32:18] Sorry, no!

Manuel:
[32:20] Get lost! No, you can only have it like once a month or something. But if you really crave...

Olivia:
[32:26] But if you're a vegan coming to Berlin and want to try some traditional food, like traditional food, then it's great, right?

Manuel:
[32:33] Totally, totally, yeah. And what about Korean?

Laura:
[32:40] The only vegan Korean place I know is called Feel Seoul Good in Prenzlauer Berg. Have you guys been there? (Pretty good, yeah.) Yeah, I'm not like a foodie, I can't really give restaurant recommendations. I can just say that I ate there. Their Bibimbap was great.

Olivia:
[32:54] I didn't grow up on it.

Rae:
[32:57] I lived another day.

Laura:
[32:58] It filled me up.

Manuel:
[32:59] Okay. Kebab? Döner?

Olivia:
[33:02] I never have döner. Vöner?

Manuel:
[33:03] Yeah, it's the only one really.

Rae:
[33:05] Yeah.

Manuel:
[33:06] It's okay.

Rae:
[33:07] Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of hype and it's like: Oh, Boxhagener Straße! And you're like: Okay, that's the place.

Manuel:
[33:11] But it's not that great, yeah. Okay, but last but not least, at least for me ... (Thai.) Oh, Thai? Okay.

Olivia:
[33:18] There's this... Like Thai? [li-ke : serious||thai||vegan] You been there?

Rae:
[33:20] Yeah, also [inaudible].

Olivia:
[33:21] I thought that was really nice.

Rae:
[33:24] Yeah, I think that Boxie [Boxhagener Platz] is just like literally like each corner has a vegan restaurant and you're just like: Okay! Which one today?

Manuel:
[33:33] Oh, burgers! We forgot about burgers. There's a lot of good burger places. What's your favorite?

Olivia:
[33:39] Swing Kitchen.

Manuel:
[33:40] Swing Kitchen's pretty good, and it's cheap, too, it's not pricey. Because Smokey Greens, I think they closed, but that was good but really expensive.

Laura:
[33:50] And their milkshakes. Amazing.

Rae:
[33:54] Says the non-foodie, so it must be good. (You can trust me!)

Manuel:
[33:56] Do you know Vincent Vegan? (Yes.) That's pretty good.

Rae:
[33:59] Inside a mall. Yeah.

Laura:
[34:01] It's a chain, right? They have a bunch of them.

Olivia:
[34:04] Yeah. And there's Vedang. Not that I've ever been there, but there's loads of vegan burger chains.

Rae:
[34:09] Or Veg'd.

Manuel:
[34:11] Yeah. Yeah. By the way, in Prenzlauer Berg, there's a vegan butcher, Die Vetzgerei. Have you been there?

Rae:
[34:17] Ooh!

Manuel:
[34:18] They have lots of vegan meat. And then I just recently discovered a really good vegan sushi place and ... it actually just opened that's why I just discovered it.
And I'm looking for the name.

Rae:
[34:35] Is it KIM999?

Manuel:
[34:36] No.

Rae:
[34:37] Not Secret Garden?

Manuel:
[34:38] No. It literally opened like two weeks ago.

Rae:
[34:43] It's funny that we can like name a list of vegan sushi.

Olivia:
[34:46] What a great list to be able to make. (That's Berlin!) That's what I was thinking, right? It's great when you're sitting there: Oh, do I go to this vegan sushi place or this vegan sushi place?

Manuel:
[34:59] I should have written it down. Well, keep talking.

Rae:
[35:04] I do want to give a shout out. There's also like a Michelin-star vegan restaurant in Berlin and it's kind of hidden. It's in Mitte. It's Cookies Cream. I went there for my birthday because it's like, you know, €100 to eat there, but oh my gosh, it's amazing! And everything is just like crafted with so much care and love. And everyone there is just eating. And you're just part of this community, and you think: Wow! Like nobody cares that this is vegan. Everyone's just eating. It's just like normal. And it tastes so good.

Manuel:
[35:35] Yeah. There's also a fancy vegan place close to here. Kopps?

Olivia:
[35:40] ([Lucky] Leek?) Kopps? Is it Kopps? ([Lucky] Leek?)

Manuel:
[35:43] Oh my God. (There's also, yeah, there's multiple ... ) I really should have written down ...

Olivia:
[35:48] Is it the one right opposite the park?

Manuel:
[35:51] Okay, so before I keep scrolling on Google Maps, the vegan sushi place that I wanted to recommend is Emira Vegan Sushi, it's in Prenzlauer Berg. And then the fancy place that is close to here, but that I honestly thought was a little overrated because it was quite pricey, is called FREA. (Ah, yeah.)

Rae:
[36:17] (FREA, yeah.) That's a bakery place.

Olivia:
[36:18] Yeah. So they have a bakery and they also have like a restaurant. (Do they? Yeah, which ...) (Ah!) I've never been to the restaurant, but the bakery is my favorite place. (I love the bakery.) Such good vibes in there. They have this cardamom croissant. Have you tried it?

Rae:
[36:32] It's so good, yeah.

Manuel:
[36:34] Oh no, FREA is the bakery, you're right. That's, you know, no, the bakery is great. I didn't ...

Rae:
[36:39] The restaurant? Not great?! (It's Kopps.)

Manuel:
[36:39] Oh, it's also ... Is it Kopss?

Olivia:
[36:43] Well, so FREA has also got a restaurant, like a ... which is kind of fancy, higher-end budget range, but that's also opposite Kopps, which is also a high-end vegan restaurant.

Manuel:
[36:58] Okay.

Rae:
[36:59] Again, Berlin.

Manuel:
[37:00] So many options. Okay.

Olivia:
[37:02] If you've got anything from listening to this, it's that there's a lot of options, right? (Yeah.)

Manuel:
[37:07] And what's also great is HappyCow. (Yes.) Honestly. Which is the app that you can just open and then just go to the nearest place.

Vegan Supermarkets

Rae:
[37:15] And a little bit digression, but there's also like entire vegan grocery stores, so like Veganz.

Manuel:
[37:21] Which went bankrupt, kind of. (Oh no!) I mean, they used to have grocery stores all over Germany, and then they closed all of them and they just had three in Berlin and then they went down to one in Berlin.

Olivia:
[37:35] In Warschauer Straße.

Manuel:
[37:36] Is that one still open? (That's the final one.) Because they had one in Prenzlauer Beck but that one closed as well, so they just have one final store left over. (Oh!) But the brand is still ... because now they just sell their stuff (Everywhere) in like Rewe and stuff. (Yeah.) Because the vegan-only grocery store was like a good idea, but it was all so pricey that no one went.

Laura:
[37:59] A box of pasta was like €f4. Like you didn't invent vegan pasta, get a hold of yourself. But it was great if you needed like something really specific that they wouldn't have.

Olivia:
[38:10] When I was dog sitting, I took the tram all the way to Veganz to get vegan dog food for Diego, so ... (You can order that on the internet.) I didn't have time. I had to like get it on that day and I was like: Right I've got to go somewhere, and I knew that it would be there so it was good for that. I always like going in there though. I just feel like whenever I go into these completely vegan places I just feel like I'm at home, you know? (Yeah.)

Laura:
[38:36] Not checking the product labels, just vibing. (Yeah, that's true.)

Olivia:
[38:41] And then but we should also say that Veganz is like ... I don't know how they managed to do this, but in the building, there's also Secret Garden, which is a vegan sushi restaurant, and there's also Avisu, which is a vegan shoe shop, so like you can get your groceries, you can get your shoes, and then you can go upstairs and get some sushi. I don't know how they managed to do that, but it's great.

Manuel:
[39:06] Okay. What else? We talked about the trivia nights, the big community, the festivals, the grocery stores. What else?

Vegan Community Group Chat

Olivia:
[39:16] Are you guys part of the Vegan Community Berlin group chat? (No, is this Telegram?) No, it's WhatsApp. I think it's got thousands of members. (Sounds stressful!) I don't have the notifications on, I don't need that sort of stress in my life! But they usually send things like petitions, or, I don't know, if there's been some vegan news or something, and anything like that. It's just a nice way to get in touch with people as well. So yeah, if you want to join, I can ...

Laura:
[39:47] Yeah, add us, please.

Manuel:
[39:48] Are you an admin?

Olivia:
[39:49] I don't know, but there is a link that you can join or something. So yeah.

Manuel:
[39:53] Okay, we'll put that in the show notes. (Yeah.)

Traveling To Smaller Towns in Germany

Laura:
[39:55] Oh, I wanted to ask actually, do you have any tips, as a German, do you have any tips for us when we're traveling to smaller towns outside Berlin? Is there an easy way to find vegan food or maybe some dish that can easily be made vegan that most places have. (Yeah.) What's your strategy there?

Manuel:
[40:14] Honestly, I don't know. I mean, falafel places, I thought were a safe bet, but apparently not always. I mean, honestly, I don't mind pizza without cheese, so I'll go for that any day, but it's tricky. And I mean, when I go on vacation now, I just always, I just ... I don't stay in hotels or anything, it's just always apartments and then I cook and I bring my, Oatly milk and, you know ...

Olivia:
[40:45] Every good vegan's got a bottle of Oatly in their suitcase!

Manuel:
[40:48] Yeah, it's what you have to do!

Olivia:
[40:51] So I recently went on holiday to Lake Como in Italy, and they have ... so the lake's massive, I think they have like one vegan restaurant but we weren't staying anywhere near it, so there was like, there was no fully vegan places but we managed to eat very well. What we did was we had HappyCow and we just looked for like the options button. So if you on HappyCow, which is the app, like there's this one thing where you can ... well, you know, other vegans can rate places based on just the options that they have. And it was so helpful. (Oh cool, okay.) So that's sometimes worth doing. And even if not, like this is ... my mom's so good at doing this, right? Even if they don't have any advertised vegan options, they have vegan ingredients.

Laura:
[41:38] Right, yeah. And you can say you're allergic to something too.

Manuel:
[41:41] You may have to explain to them which ones are the vegan ones. (Yeah.)

Rae:
[41:45] "What are animal products?!"

Manuel:
[41:47] "What is an animal?!"

Olivia:
[41:48] "Anything that looks like it came from an animal!" Nah. Yeah, you can ask, like we did, "Can you make a pizza without the mozzarella? or, "Can you just make a nice plate of grilled vegetables?" (Yeah, yeah.)

Manuel:
[42:00] "Do you have potatoes?"

Rae:
[42:02] Yeah.

Manuel:
[42:02] That's what I usually ask.

Rae:
[42:04] "Just give me one raw potato!"

Olivia:
[42:06] So it's doable. Sometimes you just got think outside the box.