The Best Thing About Berlin Is Potsdam

Kevin and His Love for Potsdam

[2:43] Kevin. [Yeah.] How rude of us to ask you questions before even introducing you. You are a listener of the show.

Kevin:
[2:49] I am.

Manuel:
[2:50] You are from Berlin. [Yeah.] You are half American, half German.

Kevin:
[2:57] Exactly.

Manuel:
[2:58] That's as much as I know about you. What else? What do you do in life?

Kevin:
[3:03] I'm a trained historian, and my relationship to Potsdam began after the Wall fell, really. Or even before. I had German relatives there. And when I went and visited the palaces when the Wall came down, there were just tourists flocking in, and I could see they didn't have enough English-speaking guides, and so I went to the city tourism office. I said, you know, "Could you use me as a guide?" "Yeah, of course," you know, and that's how that began. And then I was lucky enough in the mid-90s to move to Potsdam.

Manuel:
[3:38] Not many people have ever said these exact words!

Kevin:
[3:41] No!

Manuel:
[3:42] "I was lucky enough to move to Potsdam!" And that's coming from a Berliner!

Kevin:
[3:49] What happened today was relevant to what we're speaking of. I had a group of American university students spending two weeks in Berlin on an educational program and we're walking through Potsdam, through the pedestrian zone of the old city, and I could hear them talking behind me, and they were saying, "This place is so much nicer than Berlin!" And then when I left them in the park of Sanssouci, I'm walking to the train station through Sanssouci, and the air was just so pleasantly cool, and the colors of the trees right now is also beautiful, and I thought: Oh God, I have to go to Berlin! Because, of course, Manuel and Jae said they'd strangle a kitten if I didn't come here - under duress.

Manuel:
[4:30] Amazing! So you really want to talk about Potsdam. You're a Potsdam fan. [Yeah.] I shared this during lunch today with some of our co-workers. You were there. I was there. And everybody was like - how to summarize this conversation? - I would say, everybody was saying: Potsdam is nice to look at, but once you've seen one castle, you've really seen all of them. And it's just flooded - I mean, you led with the tourists - it's just flooded with tourists, and why would you spend time there? Convince us!

Kevin:
[5:10] Yeah. Like the cool people in Berlin would say, "Oh, Potsdam is so boring." But when they get visitors, "Oh, we have to go to Potsdam, right? "And the people you were speaking with, it sounds to me they had like the typical experiences. Usually people go there for a day and they'll go right to Sanssouci, see a little bit of the inner city, "Okay, you know, I've seen everything." But there's so much more to Potsdam. And I also guide a lot of German groups, especially the ones from West Germany, they're just so surprised. They said, "We had no idea, there's just so much here." [Yeah.] Because they think it's just Sanssouci and maybe, you know, Plattenbauten, like the concrete blocks you see all over the east. There's three palace parks in Sanssouci with 15 palaces, and they do not look all the same by any means. And the tourists congregate in only certain areas. There's the pedestrian zone, you see a lot of tourists around Sanssouci, and Cecilienhof where the Potsdam Conference took place. But you get away from there and it's mostly native people, you know. And what's special about Potsdam to me is that it's so compact. You can be in an old 18th-century city, which Berlin doesn't have, you walk 20 minutes in one direction, you're in Sanssouci, this beautiful park. You walk 20 minutes in another direction, you're at a beautiful lake where you can go swimming. And, you know, if you want, in 30 minutes, you're in Berlin.

Jae:
[6:38] Oh! I didn't even know that.

Manuel:
[6:41] But so, okay, maybe we can start like from the vantage point of a visitor.

Visiting Potsdam

[6:46] Like if someone who's listening to this, you know, isn't convinced by the end of this episode and ends up moving to Berlin, not Potsdam, but they want to visit Potsdam, like what should they definitely do, beside visiting Sanssouci, which maybe you should mention what that even is. I'm not sure if everybody knows.

Kevin:
[7:06] Yeah, Potsdam, best known as the summer residence of the kings, because many kings and emperors, they didn't like Berlin either. They moved to Potsdam, at least for the summer, and Frederick the Great, the most famous of the Prussian kings ...

Jae:
[7:20] I was reading about him last night!

Kevin:
[7:22] Oh, good for you! And he started this with … [He's so proud!] [I am very proud!] He showed the way with his palace, Sanssouci, without worrying, [Yeah, yeah.] without care, right? And that's the most famous palace in Potsdam. [Wow!] And that would be a good place to start. I mean, it's like going to Versailles without seeing Versailles Palace. And I personally don't like Versailles Palace, it's really overcrowded and everything, but you have to see it. Then you can explore the other things, you know?

Jae:
[7:49] And like, what are these other things? Because I love what you're saying. When I visit a place, I really don't like doing the touristy thing. I think it is overrated, and you never get the city for what it really is, you know? So there's always the places that the locals go and that native people go, but you will never know that unless you talk to somebody, or whatnot. [Exactly.]

Kevin:
[8:15] Of course the best time to go is when it gets warm again, when the suicide weather is over! And what I personally would suggest is: come to Potsdam and just walk to the old city. There's the Dutch quarter, it looks like Amsterdam. It actually was Amsterdam in that Claire Danes terrorist city in Homeland, when they shot the whole Season 5 or 6, whatever it was, here and around Berlin. And then you can ... not far from there, there's the Russian colony. And this is special about Potsdam too, it's been called the Prussian Disneyland. There is a Dutch colony, there's a Russian village, there's a Swiss ensemble, there's a Norwegian ensemble, there are French palaces, Italian churches, English castles, right? And you go to the Russian colony, which was built as like a living memorial to when the Prussians and the Russians fought together against Napoleon. And you can go up on a hill and there's the oldest Orthodox church in Western Europe. But it gets better! You go up another hill called the Pfingstberg, the Pentecost Hill, and there's the Belvedere there. And there was a 19th-century king who was crazy about Italy, and he couldn't go to Italy all the time, so Italy has to come here, right? And there's lots and lots of Italian architecture in Potsdam, and it's a lookout palace. It's these two towers, and just stunning views of Potsdam and the whole Havel river valley. And it gets better! You go down the other side, and there's the old royal dairy where they made milk for the king, going back to the 18th century. It has an old German name, Die Meierei. [Meierei.] And it's called The Dairy again, they fixed it up, but they make beer there now. [Oh!] And it's the best - it's maybe a stretch for some - I think it's the best beer in Germany. It is so, so good!

Manuel:
[10:08] What's the brand?

Kevin:
[10:09] It's Meierei. They have their Hausbier palast, but they have seasonal beer. Right now they have Herbstbock, [Ooh!] which is a very strong, thick beer, really good. But my favorite is the Maibock they have in the springtime. Okay, and you're there, and next to that, okay, it's touristy, but the Potsdam Conference, where Harry Truman and Winston Churchill, Joseph Stalin, came together to discuss the post-war Europe. You'll find a lot of people there. But you go further in this park and there's the Marble Palace no one's ever heard of. It was built for an 18th-century king no one's ever heard of, the one after Frederick the Great, but that's even more beautiful than Sanssouci. And it was renovated for some 30 million euros in the 1990s. It's just stunning parquet floors and beautiful furniture and views, and no one wants to go there, you know? And next to that is ... everyone in Potsdam ... and a lot of people in Western Berlin know the Heiliger See, the Holy Lake. Everyone in Potsdam calls it Die Badewanne, the bathtub. [Mm hmm.] It's a great place to swim because the water is super, super clean, and people just go there and have a good time and hang out. So that's just one area to explore. [Yeah, that's a lot.]

Manuel:
[11:19] And what about the ... I visited Potsdam like twice and I went to see the castle, and I went to see ... on one of the occasions I went to the film [The Film Park.] Film Park. [Yeah, yeah.] Yeah, thoughts on that?

Kevin:
[11:35] That's another unknown area of Potsdam. I mean, everyone knows the Film Park because Potsdam has the oldest cinematic studios in the world, older than Hollywood. And they've been making films there since 1911, 1912. And next to that, they have a film park. And I mean, you know, people who've been to Universal Studios would kind of laugh, you know, but it is interesting. But what I find more interesting is the area around that, Babelsberg, that's only belonged to Potsdam since 1938, and the people there, they're really intense local patriots, you know. Like the people in Spandau, you know? You go to Spandau, you call them Berliners, you get in trouble! They are not Potsdamers, they are Babelsbürger, but it's also a very charming, trendy area. And there's another palace park there called Babelsberg, you know, and there's the spy bridge where they exchange the spies, you know, and what I personally find fascinating is the villa colony. [Mm-hmm.] This trend of getting out of Berlin to Potsdam. In the 19th century, the nouveau riche, the people that started making lots of money when the German empire was founded, they followed suit, and this whole belt of villa colonies was built. There's Grunewald, Schlachtensee, Nikolassee, Wannsee, and then this place called New Babelsberg. And I work for the city of Potsdam too, and we offer a tour there, and it's two and a half hours, and it's just the highs and lows of German history, these Jewish businessmen and officers and famous artists. And a lot of rich and famous people live there again today. Your jaw drops when you walk by some of these houses, you know. And it's also right on the Griebnitzsee Lake, and that was the border. And it used to be a border area, you know, you weren't allowed in there.

Manuel:
[13:26] Speaking of money, you mentioned in your email that Potsdam is known as the German Beverly Hills.

German Beverly Hills

[13:34] So lots of rich people there!

Kevin:
[13:35] Lots of rich people there! And if you think Berlin is expensive and a hard place to find an apartment, you're really going to love Potsdam. The trend started there a bit earlier.

Manuel:
[13:46] Really? Because that was kind of ... when we were talking about it at lunch, I was like, but maybe it's easier to find an apartment there and then you can commute to Berlin.

Kevin:
[13:56] No. No. The apartment shortage started earlier in Potsdam. And I can learn so much about German issues with just Potsdam and the reunification. When the Wall fell, it was a very bad time in Potsdam for a while. The city lost 60,000 inhabitants, and it still looked like the end of the war for a long time because houses couldn't get repaired. They had to sort out the question: Who owns what. You know? But the big change came, they had this national flower show in 2000, the Bundesgartenschau. And that's when investors started coming and seeing the possibilities. And the same year, just like in Berlin, Potsdam got a very charismatic mayor who knew how to sell the city. And then people started coming and ... [It was rich, but sexy!] Yeah, yeah. And then it became a very popular place to live. The population went from 140,000 to 190,000. [Okay.]

Manuel:
[14:53] So no apartments. That brings me to the question: Why would anyone want to live there, then?

Why Live in Potsdam?

[15:01] You've covered a lot of the touristy things, but I kind of assume, unless you're a history buff like yourself, you're not going to spend every day doing all of these things? Why is it a better place to live than Berlin?

Kevin:
[15:14] I guess it depends on the demographic. Because these American students today, saying, "Oh, I like this place so much better than Berlin," I didn't say it, but had they had to spend a whole week in Potsdam, then they'd start missing Berlin again. Because if you're in your 20s and 30s, you want to go out to the clubs and experience new art exhibits all the time, you know, then ... [Or throw your own exhibits!] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Then yeah, you want to be here, right? But when you get older like I am, and you have family and children, you prefer Potsdam, because I mean, Berlin, it's only a half-hour train ride, you know, but in Potsdam, it's quiet and ...

Manuel:
[15:49] Is it only half an hour?

Kevin:
[15:50] Yeah.

Manuel:
[15:51] On the train?

Kevin:
[15:52] The regional train. So Friedrichstraße to Potsdam is half an hour.

Manuel:
[15:55] Crazy! It's like closer than Neukölln.

Jae:
[15:57] Yeah, honestly, it's almost to get ...

Kevin:
[16:02] It's also ... There aren't big quarters teeming with nightlife and art galleries, but there is a vibrant alternative arts scene there. It's called the Schiffbauergasse, the shipbuilder's lane. And there's an old ... the Waschhaus there, where they used to wash the soldiers uniforms, and it's been a club since 1990 or so, you know, Rosenstolz started there, Rammstein started there. And they've got the Fabrik, the Factory, it's a dance ensemble, there's off-theater there, there's a Fluxus art gallery there. And if you pay attention, like if you read in the Tip magazine what's going on in Potsdam, there's a lot more going on than many people in Berlin realize.

Jae:
[16:42] So how does one kind of build a relationship with Potsdam?

Building a Relationship with Potsdam

[16:46] Like I said, I'm not going to live there, but I want to visit, I want to get to know the city or whatnot?

Kevin:
[16:52] Yeah, okay, that's when we get into the difficulties. Because I was lucky because I had relatives there, and I knew the people there, and like ... There are several universities and dozens of research institutes, So there are scientists living there and academics from all over the world, but I think a lot of them live in Berlin. And there is no expat scene in Potsdam. I mean, it's great if you want to improve your German, come to Potsdam because there is no … [That is a good point!] There is no Bergmannstraße, there is no Kastanienallee in Potsdam where you can't find a waiter who can speak German. It's the other way around, you know. God help you as a waiter if you tell the Potsdamers they have to order in English, you know!

Manuel:
[17:31] "Vee are za German family! Vee speak German!" [Yeah! And so ... ] [I'm sorry ... ]

Kevin:
[17:39] I would just suggest you explore the city on your own and find out what you like.

Jae:
[17:46] And for building a family, can you walk us through how it is to settle down there? How is the day-to-day lifestyle of living in Potsdam for you?

Kevin:
[17:58] It's a lot less hectic than Berlin, and you don't worry about the kids walking to school. [Yeah.]

Manuel:
[18:07] I have a question about politics. Berlin is very Left, but only until you reach the borders of the city.

Politics

[18:19] As soon as you get into Brandenburg and the outside of Berlin, which is still quite close to the city, it leans heavily Right, and then in some cases leaning into the extreme Right. What about Potsdam?

Kevin:
[18:37] Yeah, it makes me think of something that happened about ten years ago. I worked with an American group in Berlin and they had a tour director who was a black woman, a musician who was living in Berlin, and we had to take the group the next day to Potsdam. And she said she'd never been there, and I said, "You've never been to Potsdam? Why not?" You know. And she says, "Oh it's all Nazis and racists there." And that was just so sad to hear. Potsdam isn't really like that, you know, and in that sense, I mean, Potsdam is a little bit like Berlin because there's the Potsdam people talk about, but that's not the whole city. Because when people talk about the cool, hip, trendy Berlin, what they really mean is the area circumscribed by the Ringbahn, the circular train line. And you go further there in some directions, people aren't so tolerant and understanding, you know. And in Potsdam, there are two Potsdams. Going right through the middle is the River Havel, and in the north are the palaces and the villas. And there's not much unemployment. The incomes tend to be very high, and people mostly vote SPD, the Social Democrats, and the Greens. And the one super rich district - well, there are two of them - but the most famous one, the Berliner Vorstadt, the Berlin suburb where most of the celebrities live, that's the only one that votes for the CDU, the conservatives. But you go south, and then you have these high rise blocks that were built in the East German times. And until recently the post-communist left party won there, but now people are voting more and more for the AfD party, you know, the right-wing populist party, so that's there as well. And that leader of the AfD, Alexander Gauland, he also lives in Potsdam.

Manuel:
[20:11] So there are Nazis. Not everyone's a Nazi, but ...

Kevin:
[20:14] I mean, there are certain places in the city, yeah. But I mean, if you come to visit Potsdam, you're not going to be going there. It's like there are places like that in Berlin too, and most people kind of like just ... [Just avoid those areas.]

Kevin's Story

Jae:
[20:28] So I'm curious to know, you said that you're a tour guide and that you're also like a historian as well. How did you get into that? Like what's your story?

Kevin:
[20:37] Yeah, it's all the German side of the family, and - we were talking briefly about this, Jae and I, before - my grandfather ... well, it's Poland now. And my grandfather was drafted and he went to fight in the Afrika Korps, and 13 days after he got into Africa, he was shot in the throat by a British sniper. So in a lot of German families, there's the missing male figure in the background. And then my grandmother, mother, uncle, they had to flee the Russians coming, and they heard people are safe in Dresden. And so when my mother was like five years old, her first memory is the bombing of Dresden, you know. And also some horrible things happened to my grandmother as well. And then just before the Wall was built, some members of my family, like my mother, they went to the West and my grandmother, others, like my aunt, she stayed in the East. And then the family was like divided by the Wall, and like my mother didn't see her sister for like 25 years, you know? And so you get curious already as a kid, how did that happen? And then you hear my grandmother say the happiest days of her life were until 1941, "We almost took Moscow," you know! [My God!] And then you learn about what was going on in the country at the time, and you try to square that. And that's how I got into history. But I studied Intellectual History. My master's degree was about Nietzsche and how he viewed the founding of the German Empire. But then when I started the guide work, I didn't know much. And I did what most new guides do, I bought guide books, you know, and I sat in on tours with the old veterans and I just spit out what they said. And then I just happened to see in the Humboldt University, there was a course on the history of Berlin and Brandenburg by Laurenz Demps, and he's like the god historian, he's got whole books about individual streets, right? And I'm listening to him, and I just start sinking in shame, saying, "My God, I've been telling people bullshit for all this time, total bullshit," you know? And I mean, now, too, you listen to what some of the guides say in Berlin, no matter where they're from, I mean, people say a lot of nonsense. So then I switched over to Regional History of Berlin and Brandenburg, [Okay!] and that's how I get into that.

Manuel:
[23:00] So now you're not bullshitting people anymore!

Kevin:
[23:02] Less! I'm bullshitting people less!

Manuel:
[23:04] How can people take a tour with you? Do you have like a ... You mentioned you're employed by the city.

Kevin:
[23:09] Yeah, I'm a freelancer. You can include my email address in the show notes. And some of these tours I mentioned, the city of Potsdam, it's called Potsdam Service Marketing GmbH, PSMG - I can tell you again later - and they have all these individual tours for Potsdam. And maybe for starters, for expats, every Saturday from April to November there's an old city tour, a walking tour of the old city, which is a new old city because the old city was wiped out in the war, most of it, and it's just been rebuilt, which is super controversial. I mean, that's a whole topic for another show. But they have all these individual tours but almost all in German, so it's a good way to practice your German.

Manuel:
[23:57] Speaking of walking tours and stuff, what are your thoughts on free walking tours?

Kevin:
[24:03] I'm not a fan.

Manuel:
[24:05] Why not? I used to be a free walking tour guide - full disclosure. I can imagine, if I guessed, you're not a fan because there's probably a lot of misinformation or just ... they're not historians, necessarily, right?

Kevin:
[24:22] I mean, partly ... I guess when I say I'm not a fan, it's just when I see them, you know, waiting for the groups that are gathering at the Brandenburg Gate, you know, and the loud, red T-shirts and red baseball caps, and you see the masses of people coming, and I just think: My God, walking through the city with this horde of people, you know, with a beer in their hands ... [Well, in Basel, Switzerland, it was much smaller.] Yeah, probably different ... different demographic, but yeah.

Jae:
[24:45] I did a free alternative walking tour. Fun fact. That's actually a reason why I live in Berlin. [Okay, cool!]

Manuel:
[24:51] Yeah, right. You did that tour, and you were like, "I like the city!"

Jae:
[24:55] Yeah, well, it told me about Berghain. Then I went to Berghain. [Did you get in?] I did. I got in. That's why I live in this city! I can trace it back! But I'm curious to know, like what was like the misinformation or like the things that you were told personally?

Kevin:
[25:14] Oh, I mean, entire books have been written about the misinformation of Berlin, like the Quadriga, the chariot on the Brandenburg Gate used to face the other way, but the communists felt insulted with the horse's ass pointed toward the government center, so they had to turn it around. And you just have to look at an old photograph, you know, or an old painting, to see that she was always facing the city. Yeah.

Jae:
[25:38] Interesting.

Manuel:
[25:40] Earlier you mentioned celebrities, which are the most important, celebrities ...

Celebrities in Potsdam

Kevin:
[25:46] If you're not from Germany, don't feel bad if you have no idea whom I'm mentioning now.

Manuel:
[25:51] But the one that I know is Günther Jauch. I know him.

Kevin:
[25:55] Really?

Manuel:
[25:56] I went to the show. He is the host of the German, "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire."

Jae:
[26:02] Oh, okay.

Kevin:
[26:03] Yeah, it's an interesting case. He moved to Potsdam, really before most of the other celebrities did, in the 1990s, this bad time in Potsdam when property prices were low, and he bought up a lot of houses. He owns a lot of the …

Manuel:
[26:15] That's right. I mean, he gets paid like a million per episode of that TV show, but that's actually not where most of his wealth comes from, right? He's a real estate mogul.

Kevin:
[26:26] Yeah, super important as a patron of the arts in Potsdam and he ... The city palace was rebuilt in 2004. It's the new State Parliament of Brandenburg, and that wouldn't have happened without him. Many people were against it. And he gathered 5 million euros and he had the entry gate built ...

Manuel:
[26:49] He gathered this from his couch! He's like, "Let me see, I have some change here!"

Kevin:
[26:53] He had this entry gate built, and it was a gate into nothing, it looked ridiculous. And so there was enough support to have the whole thing ... and he just donated a million euros for the observatory platform of the reconstructed garrison church. It's also super, super controversial. I mean, Potsdam is also like a lightning rod for people, because for some people, I mean, it's all about Prussia, right? And no one knows what Prussia is, anymore.

Prussia

[27:19] [I always say: How about a quick explanation?] Yeah, well, was it ... Freddie Mercury and David Bowie sang a song about it, right?

Jae:
[27:26] Yeah.

Kevin:
[27:26] Under Prussia.

Jae:
[27:27] Yeah.

Manuel:
[27:28] Ha, ha, ha! Pressure! Not Prussia, Pressure!

Kevin:
[27:31] No, it started off as a duchy and then it became a kingdom, and then the biggest province of the German empire. But Potsdam has crystallized Prussia and the good and the not so good, because Prussia was a state of culture where they want to refine the people with beautiful architecture, you know. And the Prussians promoted education, and, I mean, to one degree or another, religious tolerance, and this is the good sides of Prussia, you know. [Mm hmm.] But Prussia was also a militaristic state, you know, an authoritarian state, and Potsdam was the big military town, you know, and they want to rebuild the tower of this church where the Nazis held this ceremony called Potsdam Day. [Mm hmm.] So that's things people talk about. It's not all just goodness and light and beauty in Potsdam, and this is also a dark history to the city as well.

Manuel:
[28:23] Celebrities, continued.

Celebrities (cont.)

Kevin:
[28:25] Oh yeah. So there's Günther Jauch, and then ... actually he's kind of like a beggar compared to the richest celebrity. [Oh, really?] His name is Hasso Plattner. He co-founded the SAP software company, [Oh!] and he lives in this villa colony you see on this tour, which was one of the first works of Ludwig Mies van der Rohe from 1925, built for the head of the Deutsche Bank. And he donated 25 million euros for reconstructing the facade and the roof of the Palace Parliament. It was the biggest private donation in the history of Germany. [Oh wow!] And he - oh, something else to mention, glad we didn't forget this - he sponsored the reconstruction of the Palazzo Barberini. 'Cause Frederick the Great liked to surround himself with copies of famous Italian buildings and he kind of rebuilt the Palazzo Barberini in the old market, the center of Potsdam. And Hasso Plattner rebuilt that and it's his museum for contemporary art. And Potsdam was the only state capital without an art museum. And Bill Gates attended the opening, and Angela Merkel was there, and since then they've had like 2 million visitors. This was 2017. So that means it's more popular than Sanssouci. and art lovers from all over the world now, they want to come to Potsdam, not to see Sanssouci, but to see this museum. He's got the biggest private collection of Claude Monet. There are 38 works by Monet in this building, you know.

Manuel:
[29:57] And it's all thanks to enterprise software, SAP! Any other celebrities we should know about? How about any pop stars, anyone we would care about?

Kevin:
[30:08] No, I mean, pop-ish, maybe, is a fashion designer born in Potsdam who lives here again, Wolfgang Joop, J-O-O-P, exclamation point. I mean, he tried to make it in America, he didn't quite succeed, but, I mean, in Germany, he's in the Lagerfeld league, and he lives in the house where he was born, actually right behind Sanssouci.

Manuel:
[30:28] Was he born in a big house or is he just humble?

Kevin:
[30:32] It's a good size house. And otherwise that it's mostly journalist figures, Matthias Döpfner, he's the chief executive officer of the Springer Corporation. He's not popular with the natives now because some private emails of his came out several months ago where he said that East Germans are unregenerate communists or Nazis and you can't make Democrats out of them. And so I didn't want to make friends.

Manuel:
[30:58] He wasn't exactly popular before that comment, but it did help.

Kevin:
[31:02] And while we're on the topic of the Bild newspaper, Kai Diekmann also lives in Potsdam.

Manuel:
[31:09] I think we've lost most of our listeners at this point!

Kevin:
[31:14] Johannes B Kerner, television presenter, [Oh, yes.] Hans Meiser, television presenter.

Manuel:
[31:19] The rich and famous want to be in Potsdam, and some ... normal people.

Jae:
[31:23] How do you see the future of Potsdam growing or going?

Potsdam's Future

Kevin:
[31:30] Yeah, the rapid changes now is all the immigration, because, I don't know, 10 years ago we didn't really see many non-white people in the city, but now there are quite a few people from Africa and Syria and Afghanistan. And, I mean, the service is better in the bakeries, you know! Because, you know, if you think Berlin is again a direct ... really, you would love Potsdamers, you know, because you can be forgiven for feeling that you're an intruder in a shop or a cafe or restaurant, sometimes. Not everywhere, but it can be very direct. And so that's nice, it's becoming more multicultural. Yeah. Other than that, it just seems to be getting more and more expensive all the time. And the city's trying to push back a little bit, because around that reconstructed palace, they're reconstructing other buildings that were there before the war. And the city chose not to sell the properties to the highest bidders, but to the rental cooperatives from the East German times. And so a lot of those buildings are going to have to be rent controlled. That is a problem. If you go to Potsdam, this old city center that's been reconstructed, it's usually dead. I had a group from the German Unions recently, and they said, "What is this place? Is it a zombie city?" Because you don't see anyone. They've rebuilt all these beautiful buildings, but there's not much life going on. [Yeah.]

Manuel:
[32:53] But I feel like that's what I felt when I was there, that it kind of feels like there's ... when the tourists are gone, there's not that much life there.

Kevin:
[33:03] Again it depends what part of the city you're in. [What part of ...]

Jae:
[33:08] Do you think the biggest reason of that is simply because of like the monies, or with that, like the high cost of living, and those types of things?

Kevin:
[33:17] Yeah. It's demand, you know, and it's this old idea going back to the kings that after a long stressful day in Berlin, there's nothing like going home to Potsdam. We didn't talk about maybe one of the best-known celebrities in Potsdam, the Chancellor, Olaf Scholz. He doesn't use his apartment here, [Oh, really?] he lives in Potsdam. And the foreign minister, Annalena Baerbock, also lives in Potsdam. [Ah, okay.]

Manuel:
[33:38] Do they take the helicopter every day?

Kevin:
[33:40] I haven't seen it yet.

Manuel:
[33:41] Or the regional train? All right, anything else that's important to mention? I know you could talk hours.

Kevin:
[33:49] I could talk hours. I mean, it's also people say it's touristy, but to take a boat trip around Potsdam is very fascinating, because the old city itself is an island and there are 30 lakes in Potsdam and two rivers, and it's really a unique perspective on the city to see it from the water. [More is very … ] Or on the bicycles too. I mean, it's a lot of bicycle paths in Potsdam and it's very flat and it's really conducive to bicycling.

Jae:
[34:17] Is there any other city maybe that's around here or in Germany that you're like close to, as much as you like Potsdam?

Another City You Should Visit

Kevin:
[34:29] I really love Rostock. Rostock on the Baltic Sea. [Okay.] I mean it was largely destroyed in the war and they rebuilt it in an interesting way with these cement prefabricated buildings but in historic styles. And you've got a lot of ... still a lot of medieval architecture there, and they're also close to the water. And we go vacationing there a lot, so I like Rostock.